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holy paladin obsolete

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#21 Corleonesx

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 04:50 PM

View PostJkcrowdctrl, on 01 June 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

You can have all the decision making skills of Elite and only go so far. At the end of the day you gotta know really good casters (dota/jah for instance), KFC that you can convince to play with you instead of a resto shaman, or convince any or team that would otherwise be a teir higher with another healer to play with you. Elite is an amazing player that has played when paladins were really good and bad so he has great networking to play at a high level in the current state of the game. In many cases you can be a multi-glad Holy Paladin, but I promise you that most teams will take the duelest rdruid or rshaman for the LSD, KFC, PHD, FMP, TSG, Beastcleave etc etc etc.... rather than learn to play with a holy paladin.

It's even scarier to think about paladin learning curb that exhist if you started playing this expansion (not including s12). Things like positioning, cd management, etc.

Playing every healer besides priest this expansion I think it's pretty safe to say that it's 10x easier to plug and play different teams on my shaman, druid, and monk (not to mention more fun). Each class requires a different mindset, however, none are as hard as healing a 3s comp as a paladin without tremor totem or mass dispel on your team.

+rep to this post. Explains pretty much all. For each person the difficulty of handling a class changes (eg: I can't DPS :'( lol) but as a holy paladin, I don't think we are the easiest healer class to play anymore. Back in the days people were not that into CC and there weren't that many CCs in the game so we could keep out partners topped easily. The problem now is not the healing output but the minimal time that we have to unleash those heals and still being vulnerable to godknows which potential CC. The only thing I personally want and think that not many people would disagree is that to buff the Hand of Sacrifice spell so that it becomes undispelable...

Even if you are a rank 1 positioner, the instant CCs followed by casted ones will catch you after some point :(
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#22 ghort

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 06:56 PM

View PostJkcrowdctrl, on 01 June 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

You can have all the decision making skills of Elite and only go so far. At the end of the day you gotta know really good casters (dota/jah for instance), KFC that you can convince to play with you instead of a resto shaman, or convince any or team that would otherwise be a teir higher with another healer to play with you. Elite is an amazing player that has played when paladins were really good and bad so he has great networking to play at a high level in the current state of the game. In many cases you can be a multi-glad Holy Paladin, but I promise you that most teams will take the duelest rdruid or rshaman for the LSD, KFC, PHD, FMP, TSG, Beastcleave etc etc etc.... rather than learn to play with a holy paladin.

It's even scarier to think about paladin learning curb that exhist if you started playing this expansion (not including s12). Things like positioning, cd management, etc.

Playing every healer besides priest this expansion I think it's pretty safe to say that it's 10x easier to plug and play different teams on my shaman, druid, and monk (not to mention more fun). Each class requires a different mindset, however, none are as hard as healing a 3s comp as a paladin without tremor totem or mass dispel on your team.

View PostCorleonesx, on 01 June 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

+rep to this post. Explains pretty much all. For each person the difficulty of handling a class changes (eg: I can't DPS :'( lol) but as a holy paladin, I don't think we are the easiest healer class to play anymore. Back in the days people were not that into CC and there weren't that many CCs in the game so we could keep out partners topped easily. The problem now is not the healing output but the minimal time that we have to unleash those heals and still being vulnerable to godknows which potential CC. The only thing I personally want and think that not many people would disagree is that to buff the Hand of Sacrifice spell so that it becomes undispelable...

Even if you are a rank 1 positioner, the instant CCs followed by casted ones will catch you after some point :(

Is Shaman actually as easy as everyone says to play at the top levels? Or is their current toolkit simply more suited to the current state of the game than Paladin's is?

How difficult are the other healing classes to play at the same level in comparison to each other?

Are there only minor differences that account for hundreds of rating points just because of how they work with what classes are strong at the time?

#23 Doctor M

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 08:21 PM

View PostDayzlol, on 01 June 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

how are you over 2k? Oh right KFC? lol

I've played WLS and RMpaladin at the same level :s

Like, how are you even in a position to question someones skill or deservable rating when, you've never had a chance to even see them play. You're even fucking US so there's no possible to chance.

View PostEsiwdeer, on 29 June 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

But look how fucking dumb it was like, a bot could Drain Mana just like a bot could play Hunter ATM.

#24 jaimex

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 08:25 PM

View PostDoctor M, on 01 June 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

I've played WLS and RMpaladin at the same level :s

Like, how are you even in a position to question someones skill or deservable rating when, you've never had a chance to even see them play. You're even fucking US so there's no possible to chance.

Ive seen you play, easily the worst kfc i have ever seen at 2.5 lol, my partners said this has to be a fluke queue, these are 1.9

#25 Doctor M

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 08:37 PM

View Postjaimex, on 01 June 2014 - 08:25 PM, said:

Ive seen you play, easily the worst kfc i have ever seen at 2.5 lol, my partners said this has to be a fluke queue, these are 1.9

Hehe, as I do not disagree with you here, regarding how shitty we played that game. Didn't cover traps at all. But since it seems valid to comlpaining about 2 missing pieces, our hunter is currently doing so. Also our hunter has played the class for about 2-3 weeks :)

But this doesn't justify our shitty play, it only proves how stupid a comp is. I hate KFC.

View PostEsiwdeer, on 29 June 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

But look how fucking dumb it was like, a bot could Drain Mana just like a bot could play Hunter ATM.

#26 Zqae

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 08:30 AM

View PostCorleonesx, on 01 June 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

+rep to this post. Explains pretty much all. For each person the difficulty of handling a class changes (eg: I can't DPS :'( lol) but as a holy paladin, I don't think we are the easiest healer class to play anymore. Back in the days people were not that into CC and there weren't that many CCs in the game so we could keep out partners topped easily. The problem now is not the healing output but the minimal time that we have to unleash those heals and still being vulnerable to godknows which potential CC. The only thing I personally want and think that not many people would disagree is that to buff the Hand of Sacrifice spell so that it becomes undispelable...

Even if you are a rank 1 positioner, the instant CCs followed by casted ones will catch you after some point :(

Holy paladins has the most straightforward gameplay but it was never easy to play in high level arena except for season 5 because of how vulnerable to cc they are and so your positioning has to be particularly good.

Holy paladins are or at least used to be stronger in 2v2 because there is much less cc to deal with.

#27 Jim_Jim

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 08:57 PM

Quote

Is Shaman actually as easy as everyone says to play at the top levels? Or is their current toolkit simply more suited to the current state of the game than Paladin's is?

Both are linked.
Having more tools to face more situations make the game more easy. (In my opinion)

Like the paladin during S5, we had everything. Huge instant heal, huge instant control... back in the day, we had a tool for every situation. Does it make the gameplay more complex? Absolutly not.

Today, outside of feral, we can be replaced on every comp by sham or rdruid. Even hmonk have taken our favorite comp : melee/melee/heal. And it will be better, and very often, more easy to have rating with.

Paladin mecanics are outdated.
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#28 Gigana

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 09:45 PM

@ Jimjim

What would you say would work better in kittycleave, a hpala or a hpriest? I mention priest because symbiosis gives them cyclone and gives feral dispersion, so potentially they get a lot more peeling/cross-cc power combined with similar oh-shit buttons being available to feral.
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#29 mixitricksy

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 08:00 PM

Idk is holypally like THE worst class to carry someone? Came back to WoW (freaggin mistake I know, but they got me with that preorder wow insta boost thingy) and rolled pally....since I dont really have Mop XP at all and my mates quit long ago I decided to play with random people. I dont feel like I am pushing my team at all cause if they do mess up I have to compromise my position and then we are just done....holy cc of doom inc. Cant exspect 1800 peeps to eat a trap or stop a clone. So it feels I am  dragging them down even at low rating. I mean healing output is good, mana is fine, survivability is fine but even if you are strong with the force sac`s dont come close to grounding tremor shaman interrupt etc....

Do I just suck as a paladin or is holy the most frustrating class to play in a team that doestn play extremely well together? Please dont troll me its depressing me... ;(

Ps: dont know why I posted this....again...I am depressed. Give me some love. TT

#30 Ravin

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Posted 02 July 2014 - 08:51 PM

With WoD coming up and less CC being the mindset, they need to just nerf the other healers.  Get rid of tremor e.g., esp. since fear is 6s in WoD.  Cyclone is already nerfed and shares DR with fear in WoD, could nerf something else, like their blink, idk.  Priest sprint, spectral guise, holy well, all that shit should go too.  Those changes would make hpaladins viable again, I think.

Also old dispel system would help them a lot I think.

#31 kubu

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 10:57 PM

Holy paladins are dog shit in arena but blizzard don't care. Could have had the biggest E-sport on the planet but league of legends has that now.

#32 Pouncedd

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 11:51 PM

Holy pallies are really lacking and it is due to the amount of CC breaks you have and the amount of passive sustain you have for a team. If you get CCd for 8 seconds and know a follow up CC is coming your partner is pretty much dead because Hpally only really has Eternal flame as sustain while every other healer has something twice as good. Druids naturally have good sustain while they are in a CC, Shamans have healing stream with riptide and earth shield going ham, then you have Hpriests which have lightwell / pom / Renew although not as strong as the previous 2 classes still good, then you have MW monks who have many outs for CC with their statue / Mists healing while they are in the little amount of CC they do sit on top of orbs lying on the ground your team can eat up.

TL;DR Hpallies suffer in the current state of the game because of the lack of BOTH sustained healing and CC breaks.

I feel like H Pallies will be more relevant in WOD with the lack of CC compared to now and damage being more steady as opposed to the 100%-0% Globals teams such as godcomp can do.

Edited by Pouncedd, 24 July 2014 - 11:52 PM.

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#33 Jim_Jim

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 07:02 AM

A simple fix would change everything. Make Hand of Freedom / Sacrifice / Protection un-dispellable, and Hpal are attractive again. I don't want to be "OP" like rdruid/rsham, i just want to delete the "If we take a paladin instead of a shaman, we gain... nothing, let's take a blue."

Only Feral Druid want a paladin, but not for the class, just for Symbiosis.

It's umbelievable that after X years, those CD are still so easily dispellable. We are totally dependants of them, and they are the "unique" things we can bring to a team. Imagine if Ironbark/Cenarion was dispellable (And can't be used during silence), imagine if cocoon (Like in the first season of MoP), guardian, tree of like, ascendance.

Who is afraid of a Hand of Sacrifice now? it's just annoying, nothing else. "Oh, i have to use 1-3 gcd to purge it." Because if we want to protect them, we have to buff constantly, so, no healing during this.

Sometimes, i think they should rename HoP in "Hand of Forbearance".
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#34 Tsx

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 08:15 AM

View PostJim_Jim, on 25 July 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

A simple fix would change everything. Make Hand of Freedom / Sacrifice / Protection un-dispellable, and Hpal are attractive again. I don't want to be "OP" like rdruid/rsham, i just want to delete the "If we take a paladin instead of a shaman, we gain... nothing, let's take a blue."

Only Feral Druid want a paladin, but not for the class, just for Symbiosis.

It's umbelievable that after X years, those CD are still so easily dispellable. We are totally dependants of them, and they are the "unique" things we can bring to a team. Imagine if Ironbark/Cenarion was dispellable (And can't be used during silence), imagine if cocoon (Like in the first season of MoP), guardian, tree of like, ascendance.

Who is afraid of a Hand of Sacrifice now? it's just annoying, nothing else. "Oh, i have to use 1-3 gcd to purge it." Because if we want to protect them, we have to buff constantly, so, no healing during this.

Sometimes, i think they should rename HoP in "Hand of Forbearance".
how long does sac last? 15 secs?
Ok so let's say that you put it on someone vs a mage team, they won't be able to cc you for 15 secs, then after that the mage is like'' finally sac is down now i can cc pala!'' , jk another sac. Being unccable for 30 seconds is even more broken than frostbomb in the beginning of mop.

#35 bbbradddd

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 08:29 AM

View PostTsx, on 25 July 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

how long does sac last? 15 secs?
Ok so let's say that you put it on someone vs a mage team, they won't be able to cc you for 15 secs, then after that the mage is like'' finally sac is down now i can cc pala!'' , jk another sac. Being unccable for 30 seconds is even more broken than frostbomb in the beginning of mop.

Hand of Sac is on a 2m cd. It wouldn't be ridiculous at all.

#36 Jim_Jim

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 08:46 AM

Hand of sacrifice is 2mn CD, lasts 12s (Not 15), and breaks only effect like sheep/scatter/trap/wyvern... and helps to break cc like fear, hex.

I don't think being less cc-able during 12s x2 (Every 2min if you use both of them) is "broken". Being able to SPELLSTEAL something with 2-5 mn CD (FIVE MINUTES !), with the most permissive control of the game (Sheep), and considering you can still Deep Freeze and Silence if you fails, this is broken.

Mage is the real problem for Hpal, you can broke our entire gameplay and our attractive tools with one spell, a spamable spell which costs only mana.

Edited by Jim_Jim, 25 July 2014 - 08:48 AM.

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#37 Tsx

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 09:27 AM

View Postbbbradddd, on 25 July 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

Hand of Sac is on a 2m cd. It wouldn't be ridiculous at all.
2 charges.

#38 Tsx

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 09:29 AM

View PostJim_Jim, on 25 July 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

Hand of sacrifice is 2mn CD, lasts 12s (Not 15), and breaks only effect like sheep/scatter/trap/wyvern... and helps to break cc like fear, hex.

I don't think being less cc-able during 12s x2 (Every 2min if you use both of them) is "broken". Being able to SPELLSTEAL something with 2-5 mn CD (FIVE MINUTES !), with the most permissive control of the game (Sheep), and considering you can still Deep Freeze and Silence if you fails, this is broken.

Mage is the real problem for Hpal, you can broke our entire gameplay and our attractive tools with one spell, a spamable spell which costs only mana.
you can't expect a class not to have counters, every class has it's own, and mages always countered hpalas , from tbc until now.
It's all about the combo you run and which classes you choose to play with, this game will never be like you want it to be, all classes are equal etc, every comp has it's counter, every class has it's counter.

#39 bbbradddd

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 10:03 AM

View PostTsx, on 25 July 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

2 charges.

Yeah, I know. I used to main a Holy Paladin.

2 min cd - meaning once 2 charges are used, each charge is on a 2 min cd. It honestly wouldn't be as bad as you're making it out to be. Just because you can't spam poly on him for 24 seconds, it doesn't mean your life is over.

Edited by bbbradddd, 25 July 2014 - 10:03 AM.


#40 Jim_Jim

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 10:05 AM

Having counters is a thing.
Being able to negate 80% of what a class is made is another thing. (I say mages, i could have say "offensive dispel", but mage is the ultimate version of this, best offensive dispel + easy and instant cc - damage is not the problem).
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