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Is Holy Obsolete?

holy paladin obsolete

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#1 ghort

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 11:08 PM

Question in the title...

With many of Holy's former top comps being straight up better with some of the other healers, have paladins fallen too far behind? Holy has not been truly dominant in arena (read dominant, not "viable") since WotLK, yet Shamans/Druids have maintained their top spots for years now.

Has the dispel change to all healers pushed Holy into obsolescence? Even Monks are climbing in terms of representation among top tier play with their numerous CC breaks & high mobility.

What do Paladins need to get back on top or at least not just be flat out worse than Shamans/Druids/Monks? A complete class rework?

How do you feel the WoD changes will impact HPals or the metagame, if at all?

#2 Filthpig

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 11:26 PM

Holy pallys need a second trinket, tremor totem, and healing stream and they'll be back on top.

#3 Volb

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 12:16 AM

sac breaking fears (or aka fear dmg threshold being lowered)... and as for when wod launches, making divine favour undispellable if they're going to combine guardian into it (or rather just making divine favour a huge cd for holy pallys).

buffs will only make things worse, i'd rather see other healers get nerfed/changed.

#4 Monsters

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 01:57 AM

Holy needs another CC break. They just don't have the ability to be able to sit CC and make a recovery without popping major CDs to catch up. Once those CDs are gone it's game over.

If pallys had a second trinket like was posted above and maybe a little bit better array of CDs to catch up they would be fine. The way the game is now with all the instant CC's and outright mongo damage is too much to keep up with. The second you trinket you're in another CC be it full or half duration. People die in 2 globals now. Let alone a full CC with no bubble/trinket. Nothing major to top someone out of a CC.

#5 Regent

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 02:18 AM

Holy is fine, you just play Godcomp, LSD and you win.

People think that you should play traditional cleaves with HPal, but thats not true anymore.

Hpal godcomp/LSD hardcounters most melee cleaves which are really popular until 2600ish.

#6 Champloos

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 10:17 AM

View PostFilthpig, on 30 May 2014 - 11:26 PM, said:

Holy pallys need a second trinket, tremor totem, and healing stream and they'll be back on top.

Pretty much hit the mark. Fears kill us. Give us a lightwell atleast blizz

#7 Accenato

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 11:40 AM

I think holy was THE best healer in the game in season 12.

Well don't take my word for it, I'm still a scrub and not a junkie.
And I'm also not as cool and loved as Jamie and those guys are. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

In short, in my opinion holy was the best healer of season 12, it's my opinion so deal with it.
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#8 Doctor M

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 12:05 PM

View PostAccenato, on 31 May 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

I think holy was THE best healer in the game in season 12.

Well don't take my word for it, I'm still a scrub and not a junkie.
And I'm also not as cool and loved as Jamie and those guys are. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

In short, in my opinion holy was the best healer of season 12, it's my opinion so deal with it.

Posted Image

View PostEsiwdeer, on 29 June 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

But look how fucking dumb it was like, a bot could Drain Mana just like a bot could play Hunter ATM.

#9 Corleonesx

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 12:07 PM

The positioning is the most essential thing for a holy paladin. Since we don't have CC protection like tremor, grounding, 2nd trinket... and stuff like that we are expected to LoS all the incoming CCs. I think what we need is undispellable sac ( a fucknig 2 min CD spell), and a stronger hot from the eternal flame
Xwede ji te razi be...

#10 Accenato

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 12:12 PM

View PostDoctor M, on 31 May 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

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( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) tells it all.
You can smell the sarcasm on that sentence better than a fat mans fart in tiny, locked car.
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#11 Maalrian

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 12:47 PM

Paladins dont need buffs at all, its all about the other healers needing a nerf.

#12 Champloos

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 01:22 PM

Play better or get a shaman on your team. Source:paladin 3v3 101.

Or get blizzard to balance other healers

#13 Jim_Jim

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 04:04 PM

Quote

Paladins dont need buffs at all, its all about the other healers needing a nerf.

It's more complex, even if it's true.

Why bring a Hpal during Wotlk : Magic dispel, freedom, big casted heals, but zero offensive tools, just a 1min HoJ.

Since Cataclysm, and for PvE reasons, each healers gain magic dispel and big heals, because every healers in PvE should be able to heal (and dispel) a tank, and a raid. (Hpal was the primary tank-healer).
We lost 2 of our best charms. Compared to others healers? They don't lost as much as hpal during those 2 xpac.
Outside of one spec - Feral - there are no reasons to have a Hpal in a team.

Freedom, protection, sacrifice have huge cooldown, and easily dispelable. (Compared to Wotlk when we had lots of trashs buff + 30% passive resist with talent). Hpriest have "better" sacrifice (With 8s CD), and rdruid can ironbark/cenarion during silence + spamable shapeshift.
Our healing is not impressive at all outside of 2CD. (Holy Avenger and Yellow angel)
We are the last healer to cast a little with shaman. But shaman have bigger heal, passive and smart heal so...
Almost everything is dispelable. Imagine if the hpriest guardian was dispelable? It's the same for Hpal, but for everything.

We have the same tools since Wotlk, but we gain nothing useful (Useful = Something unique for the team, something you can rely on, not a RNG-dispel "If they don't dispel it, don't use your CD") since Cataclysm.
Compared to feathers, passive wall for priest, spectral guise, ironbark, cerarion ward, freedom totem, stormlash, grip, swap life, guardian, HotW, Soul of the forest etc etc...

The first and real up for Hpal, for me, would be a CD on every spamable offensive dispel.

(Edit : don't play with 2 casters, it's boring and easy as Hpal.)

Edited by Karlagerfeld, 31 May 2014 - 09:33 PM.

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#14 jaimex

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 04:06 PM

View PostDoctor M, on 31 May 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

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good kfc mejt

#15 Zqae

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 10:48 AM

View PostKarlagerfeld, on 31 May 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

(Edit : don't play with 2 casters, it's boring and easy as Hpal.)

Agreed. Holy paladins were in a good spot for a long time imo, since S5 ended they were never  really top tier anymore, decent/strong sure but never the best. Viable without being OP, if you will.

They had their niche, they were by far the best healer for dk or warrior comps as they synergized quite well with them through dispel magic & BoF. I think if Blizzard wants to see hpals strong again they need to buff that about them, seems to be the easiest/healthiest way.

Edit : I know things have changed but Holy Paladins have always been particularly vulnerable to CC's, it used to have tradeoffs such as having a lot more armor (back when it used to matter). I feel like they could be buffed without changing that weak spot which has pretty much always kept them in check.

I'd also like to remember you guys that Holy Paladins have historically been strongest at the start of every new xpac and then fallen off as the expansion lasted.

Edited by Zqae, 01 June 2014 - 10:50 AM.


#16 Rtf

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 12:14 PM

View PostZqae, on 01 June 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

I'd also like to remember you guys that Holy Paladins have historically been strongest at the start of every new xpac and then fallen off as the expansion lasted.

That's because at the start of each expansion, due to lower haste levels, wizards aren't as strong compared to melee.

#17 Gigana

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 01:07 PM

Look at it from the bright side: we're the absolute mandatory healer in RBGs. :duckers:

But yeah, on a more serious note, our big problem is CC is overall overpowered and we have no way to deal with it, not even a good HoT to keep our teammates up while we're sitting cc. Hopefully, WoD will fix it.
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#18 Doctor M

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 01:27 PM

learn from Elite

View PostEsiwdeer, on 29 June 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

But look how fucking dumb it was like, a bot could Drain Mana just like a bot could play Hunter ATM.

#19 Jkcrowdctrl

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 01:57 PM

You can have all the decision making skills of Elite and only go so far. At the end of the day you gotta know really good casters (dota/jah for instance), KFC that you can convince to play with you instead of a resto shaman, or convince any or team that would otherwise be a teir higher with another healer to play with you. Elite is an amazing player that has played when paladins were really good and bad so he has great networking to play at a high level in the current state of the game. In many cases you can be a multi-glad Holy Paladin, but I promise you that most teams will take the duelest rdruid or rshaman for the LSD, KFC, PHD, FMP, TSG, Beastcleave etc etc etc.... rather than learn to play with a holy paladin.

It's even scarier to think about paladin learning curb that exhist if you started playing this expansion (not including s12). Things like positioning, cd management, etc.

Playing every healer besides priest this expansion I think it's pretty safe to say that it's 10x easier to plug and play different teams on my shaman, druid, and monk (not to mention more fun). Each class requires a different mindset, however, none are as hard as healing a 3s comp as a paladin without tremor totem or mass dispel on your team.

Edited by Jkcrowdctrl, 01 June 2014 - 02:13 PM.


#20 Dayzlol

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 04:35 PM

View PostDoctor M, on 01 June 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

learn from Elite
how are you over 2k? Oh right KFC? lol




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