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#1 Yujiza

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 07:14 AM

Hello AJ posters,

Thanks for taking a moment to view my thread.

I recently got back into WoW; and I'm getting hit hard with the amount of changes that have come through.  I shaken most of the rust off with muscle memory fully returned for my key binds, but I'm getting shut down hard when I finally enter the rated battlefield.

I see a lot of Help Me Rogue threads, but generally they're out dated or I feel I'm missing more information to understand.  I really want to get Gladiator again (albeit it's been a long time), and taking notes to constantly improve myself to reattain my glory days.

I'll start with the rogue question specifically; Shadow Focus or Subterfuge.  I see threads upon threads, arguments upon arguments, and so on.  Personally I prefer Shadow Focus because I feel I have more control of my damage direction I want to go (bursty or control—fast responding) versus perhaps a slightly heavier opener; but energy starved shortly after.

Am I missing out on something?  Do any of you Rogues have some examples of how your openers would look like?  I understand PvP is extremely situational—I'm not expecting a cookie cutter opener, however if you can take the time to explain, it will help exponentially.

When to use Shadow Blades, and Dancing with Subterfuge.  I see tons of Rogues using Shadow Blades sporadically, and I'm trying to figure out when it's the best time.  With the energy regeneration, I'm assuming to use it while Shadow Dance is up to make the most of it.  Situationally I hold it for my second dance, or use it along with my first dance to apply more pressure.  Am I over thinking this and using it accordingly?

Subterfuge practically counts as a 3 second dance upon opening.  As we all know, dance is our burst damage.  I think to myself not to open with dance because then now Subterfuge loses it's weight.  So then I think to hold it; but then I'm so energy starved; the potential burst opener is delayed or incomplete.  If any of you can give me some ideas of this paragraph here of how you make it work, once again; it would help so much.

Rated Battlegrounds.  What do Rogues do in Rated Battlegrounds?  Some people say I should be attempting to steal nodes constantly without letting up, other say to stick in the main group and use bomb accordingly.  If there's specific rolls in RBG's that Rogues do, I want to make sure I do it, and do it very well.  Please let me know of your experience and what standpoint (rating?) you're seeing/playing Rogues play commonly.  I really want to make note of this one.

That is all folks—sorry for the long thread.  I'm trying to attain as much info as possible and get myself back into things full blows.  Thank you once again for reading, and your replies are super appreciated.

Have a great night,

Yujiza

#2 Neosaurfang

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 07:21 AM

Subterfuge vanish subterfuge prep vanish subterfuge ez
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#3 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 11:02 AM

As you can probably tell from the post above this, gladiators have become a lot less helpful and a lot more immature since you quit :) you might get a more helpful reply later from someone like mirox once he finishes whatever arena boost he is doing today!

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#4 Darthgnoe

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 11:19 AM

All I can tell you is that all rogues I face play subterfuge so I'm pretty sure that at least is a given.. it's also good in it's ability to basicly prevent you from getting popped out with all the random aoe shit these days, so you're guaranteed to get an opener at least

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 11:43 AM

with the current meta game, subterfuge is way better in every way, a lot more aoe dmg in arena means less chances of getting an opener so subterfuge is a lot better.Also opener wise, many classes , such as dks, u need to have them stunned and silenced at the same time in order to negate any form of trinket-breaks, such as ibf, blink or sham rage.
And the last thing u should pick it is because of eviscerate, or atleast in my pov, with subterfuge u get 5 combo points easily by just garroting+ cheapshot , or cheapshot ambush, and since ur main dmg is evisc, u'll be doing more burst during subterfuge window which is far better since u rely in openers to force cds from the opposite team.

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 11:46 AM

and opener wise, vs dks,ele-enha shams  and mages u want to do garrote>cheapshot then u can either ambush followed by ks or u can evisc followed by mfd evisc . vs melees or hunters cheapshot>hemo>ambush and either evisc followed by mfd evisc or ks followed by mfd evisc.it's whether or not u want to keep ks for after cheapshot or u'd rather do more burst.

#7 Feliclandelo

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 11:46 AM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 07 May 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

As you can probably tell from the post above this, gladiators have become a lot less helpful and a lot more immature since you quit :) you might get a more helpful reply later from someone like mirox once he finishes whatever arena boost he is doing today!

Perhaps it has to do with how Gladiator is achieved today.

#8 mirag

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 12:03 PM

Im in a similar situation as you.
I got back just recently after break since s6. What i do is just do alot of arenas and watch alot of streams.

You go subterfuge becouse its way safter from peels and aoe or other stuff that can mess up your opener up. It also makes restealthing with dots super easy. But ye sure you can get out a little bit better burst with shadow focus.

I usualy blades in first opener and Dance in second or 3d but its a situational.
One good thing with danceing in first opener is you get the trinket proc for your dance.

#9 Vaneesh

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 09:18 PM

Welcome back, Yujiza.

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I'll start with the rogue question specifically; Shadow Focus or Subterfuge.
Being pedantic here, but as with any question of this kind, the thing you need ask yourself is "what am I trying to accomplish" and "is Blizzard too retarded @ balance for this talent/glyph/gem/etc to actually help me accomplish it".
  • Shadow Focus allows you to sit on a target slightly longer as Assassination/Combat, and come out of stealth with Burst of Speed & Glyph'd Feint up. Hardly relevant unless you're doing Healer/Rogue 2s.
  • Subterfuge is Sub (and arguably Rogue's) best talent. Always use unless RBGs, or an Arena match where stopping the enemy warlock from getting Gateway off pretty much wins the game (2dps VS 2dps). In that case...
  • Nightstalker + Glyph of Sprint is (AFAIK) the only way any class can stop a *good* warlock from getting Gateway off. Also, Nightstalker + Burst of Speed is 4% above Mount speed, allowing you to roam RBGs in stealth and never lose speed. Can get to flags faster than enemy Rogue, not be spotted, etc. it literally wins games all the way to 1900, YMMV.

Quote

Am I missing out on something?  Do any of you Rogues have some examples of how your openers would look like?  I understand PvP is extremely situational—I'm not expecting a cookie cutter opener, however if you can take the time to explain, it will help exponentially.
Just don't be afraid to spam Cheap Shot & Garrote on the same target like a retard if a Mage, Shadow Priest, Warock or Shaman is on the same target as you. Also, timing your Cheap Shot/Garrote with a Slice'n'Dice +8 energy tick, as Subtelty, is definitely worth practicing.

On swaps/re-opens Garrote can go with Shiv sometimes to avoid Crip RNG lameness. Garrote can also be stacked w/Cheap Shot on DKs & Mages (and Monks?) if you and your Mage/Shadow Priest/Warlock/Elemental teamate are looking to outskill someone in 4seconds.

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When to use Shadow Blades, and Dancing with Subterfuge. [...] Am I over thinking this and using it accordingly?
Both. You'd be overthinking it if you were playing a Warrior, we don't get that luxury though :duckers: Shadow Blades lines up fairly well with Smoke Bomb. Smoke Bomb is your best shot at a kill, so there's your answer.

The general philosophy with shorter cooldowns is "maximize uptime". For Rogue, it's more ambiguous however, as WoW is 1step away from giving every class passive AoE CC that triggers when attacked.
  • Start off by always making sure SnD & Bleed are up before dancing (duh)
  • Try to get as-close-to 5 Ambushes & 3 Evis per dance as possible.
  • Once comfortable with the above, start tracking enemy CC so you're not stopped by some AoE fear/focus stormbolt, all the while making sure your target isn't on Stun/Silence DR before you start.

Quote

Subterfuge practically counts as a 3 second dance upon opening.  As we all know, dance is our burst damage.  I think to myself not to open with dance because then now Subterfuge loses it's weight.  So then I think to hold it; but then I'm so energy starved; the potential burst opener is delayed or incomplete.  If any of you can give me some ideas of this paragraph here of how you make it work, once again; it would help so much.
If you don't have a healer nearby and neither does your target, then just mash every button you can as early as possible while spamming Spacebar. Setup is a lot less important... depending on the target class, something like Premed Cheap Shot > Hemo > Eviscerate > Backstab > SnD & kite might be better than Premed SnD variants. This is dueling/double DPS 2s crap though. Just Premed SnD and don't be afraid to Backstab or Hemo while under Subterfuge, instead of doing Ambush.

Quote

Rated Battlegrounds.  What do Rogues do in Rated Battlegrounds?  Some people say I should be attempting to steal nodes constantly without letting up, other say to stick in the main group and use bomb accordingly.  If there's specific rolls in RBG's that Rogues do, I want to make sure I do it, and do it very well.
There's a detailed sticky on the subject right in this forum mate. http://www.arenajunk...-a-quick-guide/

That should cover a *lot* of essentials. Rogues in RBGs are flexible, and a good player can do a lot - that's often up to him (and his gear). Your group leader should have a task for you at the start, if he doesn't then you are in a shit bracket and can probably help your team better by stealing Berserker buffs and destroying some backpedaler, right as the most important battle begins. Just be where you need to be and use common sense.

In conclusion, I do hope you enjoy yourself. Aside from playing VS KFC in 3s, this season is actually pretty cool for a Rogue (so long as your expectations match the MoP meta). All 3 specs are playable up to a certain level once you have the gear, and each has its own appeal.

View PostFeliclandelo, on 07 May 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

Perhaps it has to do with how Gladiator is achieved today.
So true. I got hooked in BC, watched the WOTLK screwfest, saw things become a bit more respectable in Cata then joker-up again in MoP... and I think that, over time, Blizzard came to treat Arena as a mere way to make folks reroll/level alts and farm more sets of gear. Arena became about rewarding players for getting another class to 90 (and, to a lesser extent, rewarding button-mashing). Seems to be the #1 reasoning behind most mid-expansion balance changes. Anyway, dead horse is dead horse, and WoD should be a step in the right direction.

#10 Yujiza

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 04:22 AM

I've read all of your posts and I am extremely happy that you guys took the time to assist me.

As I was reading, a few more questions arose.  I took in a lot of notes, especially breaking the Premed-SnD before opener.  As for the energy watching, I completely broke out of that when energy became consistent—I'll keep that in mind.  Rather, was there an addon like old Vanilla days when Energy ticked at 20 every few seconds, but rather for SnD?

Nerve Strike and Combat Readiness.  Since the Nerve Strike nerf as of late, it seems it's almost a toss up between the two, and rather more situational.  Team with tons of melee damage, go Combat.  Mostly caster, go Nerve.  Are Rogues finding less and less scenarios where Combat Readiness will be useful, even with the healing nerf to Nerve Strike?

#11 Rimathil

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 02:11 PM

It seems to depend a lot, against double physical especially its tempting to go combat readiness but if you're playing something like KFC and you have a mage on your team I feel pressured to play with nerve strike.

Combat readiness is super good vs other rogue teams though, if you're able to predict the swap. (trinket blind>combat readiness lol)
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