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#21 kiddyo

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 11:00 PM

View PostGigana, on 29 April 2014 - 08:34 PM, said:

I actually agree that ret has good mechanics.

IMHO, in a world where healers & casters have to cast and there is a lot less CC, I think all they gotta do to make us viable is buff our sustained dmg/healing to the level of other melee and make plate what it should be - a big % dmg less taken from melee.

Totally agree.

I find ret mechanics and gameplay to be great (if used properly). If only they would focus on survivability instead of playing with dmg and utility numbers...I'm not asking for a passive shield wall or 3 trinkets, just plate armor to be meaningful and maybe not be so reliant on bubble to save us.

What would be a good way to buff our survivability? Glyph of Divine Protection (I think that's the one) baseline w/o the penalty maybe? Or would that be too OP?

#22 Gigana

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 07:57 AM

IMHO the best way to buff our survivability is just to increase the amount of healing we do on ourselves and to make plate provide solid defense vs physical dmg. That's it. We already have an anti-spell shieldwall on a 1 min cd (30 sec if talented) + hand of purity if necessary, which should be more than enough if casters have to cast and are therefore more susceptible to interrupts and los-ing.

The self-healing mechanics are already in place, too, since we have to make important decisions whether to use our holy power to heal ourselves or to do damage.

One cool idea would be to make light's hammer have a really low cd and shorter range for retri, so we could use it similar to how DKs used that aoe ground slow in cata/wotlk only of course we would have to aim it and it would have a cd so it can't be spammed. IMHO would be a cool mechanic + would look awesome to see all those light thunders around. :]

EDIT: One thing I would personally love to see is to make retri a shield+1h melee spec. This way we could get even more benefit from having high armor + it would look unique and in line with the entire crusader archetype. Kinda boring to have every plate melee lugging a 2h wep around.
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#23 Hankx

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 08:17 AM

Great post .. Thanks.

I think the main problem is they removed Inq that give us 30% more holy dmg then buff some attacks dmg by 20 to 30% , If you think about it ,It's the same.

The balancing to numbers is coming as "Blizz say 10Years now" so we will wait and read the notes in this post then we need NOT to wait coz if ppl don't talk now when will they? when it's live? beta? too late ...

It has been 10 years blizz proved that they are stupid when it comes to pvp ,What will change?



WildStar WIll Change!!!! hope there is something like ret paladin there :/!

#24 Crono_Smash

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 03:47 PM

View Postshackalackin, on 29 April 2014 - 10:37 PM, said:

Every post I see from you is nauseatingly biased. Do you actually think about how changes you recommend would work before you say them?
An immunity to all damage and CC breaker on a 3min cd (1.5min cd depending on talent choice)?
A physical damage immunity on a 3min cd tha you want to also become a complete damage (magical immunity) on a 3min CD?
I remind you forbearance is being dropped to 30sec in the expansion so these can be staggered pretty quickly
Keep in mind pallys also have divine protection which (with perks included) can now reduce magical damage by 50% on a 1min cd (30sec cd if talented) that's usable while stunned.
Sac is already on a 90sec cd upcoming and can have 2 charges if talented
Battle Fatigue is supposedly being removed so all healing will be increased
And you want FoJ baseline with instant blinding light too? Instant CC is the exact problem with this dumbass expansion, thank god blinding light is gone too because since when are pallys supposed to have more CC than other classes in addition to their utility?

I'm speaking in terms of arenas here, I could care less about a class's utility/balance in RBG's

Well, much of what I've said that for how Ret is not scalable for RBGs. BoP and Sac for 3 people on a Death Match is WAAAAY different than for 10 people on a always changing situations from RBGs.

Everybody have immune and CC breaker on CD less than 5 min without a talent. Deterrance, Iceblock, Touck of Karma, Dispersion, etc... not to mention the amount of CC and CC breakers. Ret now have 5 CC on 2 min and a CC breaker that is hardly used as CC breaker every 5 mins. I've said before: make a CC breaker and Divine shield different spells. Divine Shield have too muck utility on a single long CD. We'd be way better if it didn't break CC, lasted for 4 secs and had 2,5min CD and had a CC breakers on whatever CD but separate from DS.

As it is, we have to save DS for survivability so the CC break part is just to save a GCD to trink if you bubble on CC. Of course you can bubble and remove to trink for the kill, but if you don't land the kill when you do it, you'll regret doing it for sure.

Right now the game is: Train the Ret until DS, than wait for it or dispel it, than train the Ret until he dies. Simple as that. If Ret is self healing, his already low damage is even lamer and any dot ticks more than his self heal.

Now what is biased?

Ret needs more reliable self healing and CC breakers because as even Vanguards said: our uptime sucks right now and Crit is interesting because it's the only way we can maybe do self healing enough to get by.

You know what? It's the same for Hand of Sac as for Divine Shield.

We have to use Sac for dispels on our healer, so we can't use it to stay offensive against incapacitate.

Both spells have 2 utitilities on them (that counts as budget for balance), and we use only 1 of them 95% of the time. That's why the CDs have to be lower or the habilities have to be split on 2 or a redesign must happen.

We pay for 2 but have/use only 1.

---

About CC:

If we don't have sustained damage, our burst CD is the same as most defensives and we don't have control... we just have to have an OP class with a lot of CC to get by. Hunter being OP with a lot of CC is the only reason Ret is even in the game right now.

So Ret need: More sustained, less CD burst or more CC to make any pressure.

Since we need survivabilitiy on top of the lack of pressure: our burst is already over the top and sustained damage won't help on survivability, more CC would fit it perfectly.

CC goes for peels on our survivability, helps the with the last 5 secs to land a kill and Blind is a long CD that you have to be close, breaks with anyting and DR with a lot. So as it is today, you have to be good to make good use of it. How many times times did you sit on a full Ret blind or seen it make a big difference?

---

About Utility:

Utility Ret brings is Free, Sac and BoP - isn't this overrated? Compare that with Lock portal, Ring of Peace, Solar Beam, Knockbacks, Grips, the amount of CCs that even after the big cuts/nerfs will still be a lot if you compare to Ret's... everything else scale way better for whatever number of people arround (3 to 10) and have way less CD.

Especialy on RBGs, we bring Sac and healers can dispel, we bring BoP but the CD is huge even with Clemency for a 10+ min 15+ man battle and every other utility is better than Hand of Freedom.

Not to mention, Holy brings everything we bring, but as healers are more desirable.

Why do anyone even would brig Ret for RBGs? Nobody can answerd that and Blizzard don't give a shit.

---

Everyone know Ret is not OK, and if no big utility is comming, than the "number tweeking" have to be radical.

You asked if I think how it would work if what I say gets implemented?

"Hey, if we choose to train a Ret until divine shield and after, we'll have to train him hard and CC the healer hard to land a kill because his DS will be back in less than 5 mins when you already bursted him twice again. And if he burst, you better have more than 2 CCs to hold him because he might have a CC breaker to keep his pressure up during the burst and not sit trough 16 secs of CC while his burst fade out."

"Hey, let's bring Ret for RBGs, his BoP will keep us up and if 2 BoPs are out in the first minute of the game, the next won't be back after 4 minutes only, so we can rely on Ret defensive utility for our team survivability."

"We need another 5 secs to cap this base or land a kill... It's nice that Ret don't have ONLY 1 CC on single target, with the other 2 options not usable on the talent because it's umbearable for Ret PVP to cast. So his Blind shows he is a great player and can get in position and know how to use his only other CC besides stun"

"We could have a Mage to Poly or any other CC to peel an enemy to save a life, but Ret peel is not only a 5 minute CD that immune only physical damage and is dispelable by anyting... he can make it immune to magic so it's not useless agains wizard cleaves and even if most classes can peel anytime and Ret main peel have a CD, it's not a so long CD and the off healing that he trades DPS for can hold up until then..."

So that's why I think the changes I'm sugesting would make Ret much more reliable and desirable.
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-> In short: "Balance is make 6-7 specs balanced to compete and let the rest nerfed but make it playable so maybe some exeptional professional players can compete with a nerfed spec." = Blizz supports FOTM.

#25 Noblock

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 04:00 PM

View PostCrono_Smash, on 30 April 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:


So Ret need: More sustained, less CD burst or more CC to make any pressure.

tl:dr

but retri have stupid burst & does more dmg on range then melee it feels like, that ontop with  all the mobilty and bouble, i dont think they need another cc breaker unless you remove double sac/freedom and something else from them
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#26 glonglon

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 04:59 PM

View PostNoblock, on 30 April 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

but retri have stupid burst

I don't understand why you think ret burst is more retarded than icelance spamming with frozen orb or petnova+alter time, ascendance, reck+banner, shd, sblades, dark soul...As you might have noticed MoP is a very bursty expansion.

View PostNoblock, on 30 April 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

does more dmg on range then melee it feels like,

It's true that ret ranged damage is good during AW+HA but remember that other melees have gap closers. I'm ok to trade my ranged damage for 3 gap closers like warriors :duckers:


View PostNoblock, on 30 April 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

i dont think they need another cc breaker

I agree, Imho the real issues for ret are low surviviability and low sustained damage. Hope WoD will fix that.

View Postshackalackin, on 29 April 2014 - 10:37 PM, said:

And you want FoJ baseline with instant blinding light too? Instant CC is the exact problem with this dumbass expansion, thank god blinding light is gone too because since when are pallys supposed to have more CC than other classes in addition to their utility?

I'm okay with CCs like blinding light, intimidating shout and psychic scream because you have to be in melee range to use them. When you see a ret running towards your healer you know that a blinding light is coming.

I don't understand why it was necessary to remove ret secondary CC, blinding light was fine for ret, it should have been removed only for holy spec that was already able to HoJ + Fear/repent.

On the other hand PoM+poly, NS+clone and NS+hex are mongoloid CCs and I'm glad they are gone from the game.

Regards.

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#27 kiddyo

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 05:04 PM

I'm starting to think people complain about ret dmg/utility because they don't know how to counter them, is it because not many queue 3s anymore?

#28 Crono_Smash

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 06:24 PM

View PostNoblock, on 30 April 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

tl:dr

but retri have stupid burst & does more dmg on range then melee it feels like, that ontop with  all the mobilty and bouble, i dont think they need another cc breaker unless you remove double sac/freedom and something else from them

I would agree if we could actualy use Sac to break CC. We don't have enough even to get our healer dispeled enough to survive, much less to break CC/stay ofensive or even to mitigate damage from someone being trained. Actually, it's 3 things it does: CC Break, Dispel and Damage transfer/mitigation, but we use 95% of the time to dispel our healer because he can dispel and heal. That's a wastefull design.

Sustained would have to be like 10% to 20% better to make up for the lack of CC/peels and healing would have to double. Off healing could get buffs too because the lack of CC for peels consume all our GCDs and damage on spamming heals to keep someone alive, when any other just CC whoever is threatng your arena partner - no resource spend (HoPo) and not much time/DPS lost either (just cast, we have to WoG twice, and FoL 3 times to avoid the less damage as a fear/poly/etc on the bursting enemy).

But they won't do it because of PVE. Ret can't have better damage and healing than others.

So there is no just acepting when someone say they'll just fix the numbers. Especialy since PVP Power is gone.

If a spec have no exclusive or powerfull CC/Utility, and for PVE balance purposes can't deal more damage... how can it be OK? There is no way someone thinks Free/Sac/BoP compete with all the utility everyone else brings.
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-> In short: "Balance is make 6-7 specs balanced to compete and let the rest nerfed but make it playable so maybe some exeptional professional players can compete with a nerfed spec." = Blizz supports FOTM.

#29 zenton

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:10 PM

View Postshackalackin, on 29 April 2014 - 10:37 PM, said:

Every post I see from you is nauseatingly biased. Do you actually think about how changes you recommend would work before you say them?

He's not biased by any means. If major changes won't come, ret will stay in the same spot it was over this and prev. xpac - at the bottom (or at best medicore). Facts are facts, rets got several issues:
- not bringing anything to the table. Freedom is not anymore exclusive, and both BoP and Sac has minor impact on the flow of the game. You may argue and say that a Physical immun / dispel and a magic dispel is powerful but they are NOT when their only use is to "catch up" and after their cd occur the enemy can just continue to control. A mage / lock / rugue / x peel is much more powerful than a single BoP on your teammate wich is dispellable anyway (its best usage is to dispel Blind / Warrior stuff nowadays..) or than a dispel wich on your healer who can be cross cc'd again.
- Glypmsed off heal. Now our offheal is not bad, I wouldn't say that. But it's a pretty bad design that you can't catch up without cds AND you have to use mana+resource+gcd+cooldowns (or stand and cast some Flash of Lights until oom) for meaningful heal output and i'm not the only ret finding myself spend all my 3 holypowers for WoG spam during combo - wich is technically a passive peel on our burst. Nor me or any other serious ret wants back cata selfless healer but this system is not ok. Something like how instant flash worked in Wotlk could be a good point to look back.
- CC. This may seem biased but a 30-sec (wich is not used as cc in many situations) cd stun with a melee aoe Blind is nowhere op. Almost all dps / hybrid class has some similar CC combo and most of them will keep to have 2+ cc's in WoD. Looking on the other two talents in the cc line we have to face it that they are also in a very bad spot. The fear is just a weaker one of warlocks' and Repentance is the worst "spammable" cc ingame (I suggest those who spam the Fear thread for spammable ccs to changed this way to look on Repentance first and think twice).
- Peelable burst. In terms of burst ret works similary to Shadow Dance. It takes average effort to peel the burst by cc or one can counterpressure and force the ret to kite and / or start spamheal instead of putting out dmg.
- I left for last the obvious problems of low surviablity and the dilemma of high (or sometimes retarded) burst - low sustained dmg because they are more of concerns of numbers than mechanics and are easier to fix...

...Wich of speaking we can already see some changes like remowing Inquisition and building it into the new leveling perks - we don't have to waste gcd and hp on that shit anymore damn I was waiting for this since 4.0 - or removing GoaK. I'm really happy about these two changes and that we may get back the old Seal Dancing or the new Freedom Glyph (if it goes live) but it won't be enough if at least one of the above mentioned problems won't be looked over. I don't care wich one but until hunters and DKs got better Freedom than we or BoP's best use is to dispel Blind nothing will change.

#30 iuremax

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 06:08 PM

Holinka ‏@holinka
Not ignoring current season. Exploring PvP only options for underperforming specs. More to come.
@Laverickk I would not expect changes to Warriors, Warlocks, Shamans, Mages, Hunters or Rogues. No promises unmentioned classes will change.

Lore ‏@CM_Lore
@ZaulTV We're pretty focused on WoD development at the moment, but are keeping an eye on a couple things and might end up doing some tweaks.
@ZaulTV Rets and Moonkins might need some love. Easy to find examples of both doing well though, so we're holding off for now.

#31 iuremax

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 06:15 PM

Lore ‏@CM_Lore
@ZaulTV We're pretty focused on WoD development at the moment, but are keeping an eye on a couple things and might end up doing some tweaks.
@ZaulTV Rets and Moonkins might need some love. Easy to find examples of both doing well though, so we're holding off for now.

Holinka ‏@holinka
Not ignoring current season. Exploring PvP only options for underperforming specs. More to come.
@Laverickk I would not expect changes to Warriors, Warlocks, Shamans, Mages, Hunters or Rogues. No promises unmentioned classes will change.

#32 iuremax

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 06:17 PM

Lore ‏@CM_Lore
@ZaulTV We're pretty focused on WoD development at the moment, but are keeping an eye on a couple things and might end up doing some tweaks.
@ZaulTV Rets and Moonkins might need some love. Easy to find examples of both doing well though, so we're holding off for now.

Holinka ‏@holinka
Not ignoring current season. Exploring PvP only options for underperforming specs. More to come.
@Laverickk I would not expect changes to Warriors, Warlocks, Shamans, Mages, Hunters or Rogues. No promises unmentioned classes will change.

#33 iuremax

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 06:21 PM

Lore ‏@CM_Lore
@ZaulTV We're pretty focused on WoD development at the moment, but are keeping an eye on a couple things and might end up doing some tweaks.
@ZaulTV Rets and Moonkins might need some love. Easy to find examples of both doing well though, so we're holding off for now.

Holinka ‏@holinka
Not ignoring current season. Exploring PvP only options for underperforming specs. More to come.
@Laverickk I would not expect changes to Warriors, Warlocks, Shamans, Mages, Hunters or Rogues. No promises unmentioned classes will change.

#34 shackalackin

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 09:49 PM

I'm not saying Ret's utility is overpowered compared to other classes as it stands now, I'm saying if that dude's recommended changes went through it would be. This guys is seriously suggesting the BOP be a complete immunity. So what's to stop a ret from BOP'ing himself twice and then bubbling for a total of 3 complete immunities? Forbearance is being dropped to 30sec this next expansion. Although I admit it'd be hilarious to see all the ret tears when mages spell steal bops and are able to turret damage/cc while being immune to everything. Increase ret sustained damage and that's honestly the only fix I think they need. No, you don't get offheals (which will improve as battlefatigue goes away, not saying they are amazing currently), get to remain un-snare/rootable, and provide dispels for teamates in addition to all your proposed changes. The lack of survivability you guys mention comes in the form of these dispels. And guess what, some classes get tunneled. It's likely for a specific reason. If you don't like being tunneled as a ret, you should probably change classes because I can't think of a time when that wasn't the strategy.

Side note: Crono, reading your replies makes my head hurt.

#35 shackalackin

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 09:51 PM

And if you're so worried about being peeled during your offensive cd's, maybe save them for when you can prevent peels like any non-mongoloid class should. Don't whine when you play ret/hunter/x and pop everything you have in the first 10sec and the other team has every ability at their disposal not on cd to slow you down.

#36 Crono_Smash

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 10:55 PM

View Postshackalackin, on 01 May 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

I'm not saying Ret's utility is overpowered compared to other classes as it stands now, I'm saying if that dude's recommended changes went through it would be. This guys is seriously suggesting the BOP be a complete immunity. So what's to stop a ret from BOP'ing himself twice and then bubbling for a total of 3 complete immunities? Forbearance is being dropped to 30sec this next expansion. Although I admit it'd be hilarious to see all the ret tears when mages spell steal bops and are able to turret damage/cc while being immune to everything. Increase ret sustained damage and that's honestly the only fix I think they need. No, you don't get offheals (which will improve as battlefatigue goes away, not saying they are amazing currently), get to remain un-snare/rootable, and provide dispels for teamates in addition to all your proposed changes. The lack of survivability you guys mention comes in the form of these dispels. And guess what, some classes get tunneled. It's likely for a specific reason. If you don't like being tunneled as a ret, you should probably change classes because I can't think of a time when that wasn't the strategy.

Side note: Crono, reading your replies makes my head hurt.

Dude, take a look at the last Vanguards youtube... just 3 poly during the burst + ring + etc, etc. Vanguards sucks? Oh, we should maybe Sac someone so we don't get so much CC, right? Or maybe Sac could be used to help keep someone alive? No!

Someone there have no brains to think that a dispeled healer is worth much more than a 20% damage transfer to you and self dispel... you know, maybe because a healer can heal your partner and dispel you...

---

About Glyph of BoP, it was in the game during Cata. Changes the immune from physical to magic. Remember Ret can't hit BoPed and more than half classes dispel it.

And you said about Forberance and there is a issue there:

1 min Forberance makes no sense, much less 30s.

-> Make Forberance 90s, BoP 3 min CD lasting for 6s.

Do I have to explain why?

OK, think on WoD Ret: Bubble, BoP, BoP on 90s. Then 4min gap. 30 secs Forberance helps with nothing, if you're using DS or BoP a second time in less than a minute, you're screwed AND dumb =P So Blizz is thinking... "Let's help Rets with that".

On top of that: have someone ever seen a BoP that is not dispeled after 6 secs?

More: BoP on 3 min makes with 2 min Forberance, makes it more reliable for bigger groups. On x3 maybe OK a 5 min BoP but on RBGs, like I said: you spend 2 BoP within the first 30 secs to 1 minute of combat. So this change I'm sugesting is mainly for that: Bring Ret to RBGs for BoP, he won't run out of it or at least he'll have it in less then 4 mins after when the fight is far over.

And, please: make a point explaining why someone should bring Ret for RBGs.


By the way, my head hurt reading your post too, but thanks anyway ;D
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-> In short: "Balance is make 6-7 specs balanced to compete and let the rest nerfed but make it playable so maybe some exeptional professional players can compete with a nerfed spec." = Blizz supports FOTM.

#37 shackalackin

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 11:40 PM

It's not even your ideas that make my head hurt, it's your writing itself.

The game isn't balanced around RBG's, it's balanced around 3's. If you have to use two bops and a bubble in a 90sec period chances are you're being outplayed to such an extreme level you deserve to lose anyways.
You're mad because you're forced to use sac as a dispel instead of a damage reduction/way to avoid cc? That's the double-edged sword aspect of it. You have to make a choice which is more important, and I agree that a dispelled healer is more important generally. But it's still a decision that can be made. Same as your desire for the cc break and immunity aspects of bubble to be broken up into two different abilities. Go full mongo and bubble a CC to land a kill and suffer the risk vs reward: you might land the kill and therefore win the game, or they might survive and you just blew your best defensive ability. No one is saying vanguards sucks, but (if I can understand your barely English statement correctly) he popped all his cd's while a mage was able to free-cast and while he wasn't on any poly dr and he paid the price for it.

#38 Crono_Smash

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 03:25 AM

View Postshackalackin, on 01 May 2014 - 11:40 PM, said:

It's not even your ideas that make my head hurt, it's your writing itself.

The game isn't balanced around RBG's, it's balanced around 3's. If you have to use two bops and a bubble in a 90sec period chances are you're being outplayed to such an extreme level you deserve to lose anyways.
You're mad because you're forced to use sac as a dispel instead of a damage reduction/way to avoid cc? That's the double-edged sword aspect of it. You have to make a choice which is more important, and I agree that a dispelled healer is more important generally. But it's still a decision that can be made. Same as your desire for the cc break and immunity aspects of bubble to be broken up into two different abilities. Go full mongo and bubble a CC to land a kill and suffer the risk vs reward: you might land the kill and therefore win the game, or they might survive and you just blew your best defensive ability. No one is saying vanguards sucks, but (if I can understand your barely English statement correctly) he popped all his cd's while a mage was able to free-cast and while he wasn't on any poly dr and he paid the price for it.

Yeah, about the 2BoP 1DS in 90s deserve to lose and it's going anyway was my point explaining why 30 secs Forberance is between useless and stupid =P

You're getting to my point.

There is a budget to the effects of spells, right?

The use of the budget for Ret is not OK.

I know there is a decision of the way we use the CDs and there is the usual way and the alternatative way. But the cost of having this alternative use that is not OK.

Classes now have extra trinkets on 2 min CD and immunes or big defensives on 2 to 3 mins CD. Ret just have both on 5 min and it's dispelable so we have one big wall, where everybody else have much better flexibility.

To me, looks like Ret would be OK if Umbreakable and Clemency could be both chosen at the same time. But I think the best would be 2 min Forberance and 3 min BoP lasting 6 secs and the option to change from Physical to Magical defense... even if it becomes 90% reduction, actually that would be better for Flag BGs by the way.

I know PVP is not balanced for RBGs, but for 3s and I'm happy with that. But it's wrong to make most classes scale much better for it and there is no reason to NOT make Ret design more flexible. It's not about reworking, it's just about making Ret CDs more reliable.

Think of making a single spell doing many things. A single 10 min spell that do a strong area CC, break CC, dispel, damage, heal, mitigate and increase mobility. It does everything, it's iconic and we have to be smart to choose.

But since it's budget is so big and CD so long, it sucks because if we use for X we'll lose because of Y and if we use for Y, we will lose because of X. We're trapped with everyone thinking we're OK because we have strong utility/spell and we suck because after it's gone, we're useless for too long.

As it is, If we use our CDs for defensive, we make no pressure and we get overrun. If we use to ofensive, we're just signing our death sentence.

There is no point doing everything if you suck at everything.

So for WoD:

-> Increase sustained healing and damage to compensate for the big tradeof one to another and how GCD locked we are
AND
-> Rework Utilities or Lower CDs to make it scale for larger groups
AND
-> Give Ret a strong exclusive utility for RBGs - because really, except from dealing damage, Holy is better at everything.

But for MoP, the short version:

Increase for a DECENT amount the PVP Power of the 4 Piece PVP Bonus (2k to 3k?). Just to work it until the end o the expac.
Posted Image

-> In short: "Balance is make 6-7 specs balanced to compete and let the rest nerfed but make it playable so maybe some exeptional professional players can compete with a nerfed spec." = Blizz supports FOTM.

#39 kiddyo

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 08:06 PM

View Postshackalackin, on 01 May 2014 - 11:40 PM, said:

It's not even your ideas that make my head hurt, it's your writing itself.

The game isn't balanced around RBG's, it's balanced around 3's. If you have to use two bops and a bubble in a 90sec period chances are you're being outplayed to such an extreme level you deserve to lose anyways.
You're mad because you're forced to use sac as a dispel instead of a damage reduction/way to avoid cc? That's the double-edged sword aspect of it. You have to make a choice which is more important, and I agree that a dispelled healer is more important generally. But it's still a decision that can be made. Same as your desire for the cc break and immunity aspects of bubble to be broken up into two different abilities. Go full mongo and bubble a CC to land a kill and suffer the risk vs reward: you might land the kill and therefore win the game, or they might survive and you just blew your best defensive ability. No one is saying vanguards sucks, but (if I can understand your barely English statement correctly) he popped all his cd's while a mage was able to free-cast and while he wasn't on any poly dr and he paid the price for it.

View Postshackalackin, on 01 May 2014 - 11:40 PM, said:

It's not even your ideas that make my head hurt, it's your writing itself.

The game isn't balanced around RBG's, it's balanced around 3's. If you have to use two bops and a bubble in a 90sec period chances are you're being outplayed to such an extreme level you deserve to lose anyways.
You're mad because you're forced to use sac as a dispel instead of a damage reduction/way to avoid cc? That's the double-edged sword aspect of it. You have to make a choice which is more important, and I agree that a dispelled healer is more important generally. But it's still a decision that can be made. Same as your desire for the cc break and immunity aspects of bubble to be broken up into two different abilities. Go full mongo and bubble a CC to land a kill and suffer the risk vs reward: you might land the kill and therefore win the game, or they might survive and you just blew your best defensive ability. No one is saying vanguards sucks, but (if I can understand your barely English statement correctly) he popped all his cd's while a mage was able to free-cast and while he wasn't on any poly dr and he paid the price for it.

I disagree. From my exp. playing ret this expac I don't recall being able to make that sort of decision outside of 2s.

#40 shackalackin

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 01:04 AM

Like I said, I don't imagine it happens much at all (if at all), but it's an OPTION. By all means, if you're all so unhappy you're more than welcome to ditch the dispel and go back to just having the dmg reduction/transfer. This is why this game is so busted, people just keep asking for more and more stuff to add to their arsenal as opposed to fixing the problem (reduction of instant, magical cc like in wod) so it becomes an arms race. You guys used to just have sac as is, now it's a magic dispel, now you want more (the two abilities separated, but keeping both). It's silly




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