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#1 glonglon

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 08:00 PM

Source Mmo-champion :

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Of course he's talking about PvE but I hope ret sustained damage will be also higher in PvP.


Also blizzard want to reward leveling with perks, so each level during your 91-99 leveling you'll be rewarded with a new perk, I found that some of them are really good :

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#2 Darksoldierr

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 08:16 PM

Some perks sounds retardedly OP, not suprising coming from Blizzard after all
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#3 CaramélBear

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 08:26 PM

View PostDarksoldierr, on 14 April 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

Some perks sounds retardedly OP, not suprising coming from Blizzard after all

too early to say if the're going to be op.

#4 Feliclandelo

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 08:35 PM

I like the logic of giving us increased damage as a perk instead of new spells. Then in return, at max level, they will just increase health pools or increase resilience in order to balance out the damage (basicly countering the perks given to feel like it was 100% instead of 120%).

Sacrifice and HoW are the only fun perks.Why couldn't they have given the other spells more flavour aswell instead of just flat damage that surely will be nerfed or buffed regardless if we're over/underperforming. Can anyone give me a good answer?

#5 glonglon

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 09:59 PM

View PostCaramélBear, on 14 April 2014 - 08:26 PM, said:

too early to say if the're going to be op.

True that.

Imo I found ret & rogues perks to be the best :)

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#6 Slaggy

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 10:08 PM

Frost DK perks are pretty stronk, I dunno.

#7 Feliclandelo

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:02 AM

View Postglonglon, on 14 April 2014 - 09:59 PM, said:

True that.

Imo I found ret & rogues perks to be the best :)

How can Ret perks be the best? How hard must the other class perks not suck? We're getting 2 perks that aren't just flat damage increase.

What the fuck? Explain why please. Im out of words here. A flat damage increase is always awful. It adds zero gameplay flavour and it will eventually still be evened out with classes who might not have +dmg perks in order to maintain the same amount of PvE dps.

I mean lets assume we recieved zero +dmg perks. What would happen? Ret would fall behind in PvE damage. Next step would be to buff Ret base damage (oh look, perks).

Edited by Feliclandelo, 15 April 2014 - 12:03 AM.


#8 zenga

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:31 AM

View PostFeliclandelo, on 15 April 2014 - 12:02 AM, said:

How can Ret perks be the best? How hard must the other class perks not suck? We're getting 2 perks that aren't just flat damage increase.

What the fuck? Explain why please. Im out of words here. A flat damage increase is always awful. It adds zero gameplay flavour and it will eventually still be evened out with classes who might not have +dmg perks in order to maintain the same amount of PvE dps.

I mean lets assume we recieved zero +dmg perks. What would happen? Ret would fall behind in PvE damage. Next step would be to buff Ret base damage (oh look, perks).

Perks are really only meant for levelling (''to make levelling more rewarding''). If spell X is meant to do 80 dmg and spell Y 100 dmg at max level, they gonna make them do 70% and 50% dmg at lvl 90. Then make a perk for X that deals 30% more dmg and a perk for Y that deals 50% more dmg. If you gain a level you gonna unlock the perks at random, and you will have them all at max level. So basically none should give a flying fuck about perks.

#9 Capers

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 02:43 AM

I'm not sure why people are crapping themselves about +damage % perks or calling them OP or something. Blizzard is going to balance around these, and the damage spell would do exactly the same damage without the perk. "Your crusader strike does 20% more damage as ret." Okay, well do people not realize that if the perk wasn't in, Blizzard (assuming they don't fuck up with balance) would just make crusader strike hit 20% harder anyway? The perk thing is just to make people leveling feel like they're "earning" something that isn't just 500 new abilities that do nothing important.

If Blizzard is going to make perked crusader strike (just an example) OP, they would be making it OP with or without the perk. The damage would just be modified to be the same as the damage with the perk.
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#10 Shiva12

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 04:59 AM

I'd rather have a perk where Holy Power consumers have a 35% chance to make Divine Storm do 150% Holy Damage and be free than an improved Crusader Strike and judgment combined. It's our finishers that are sucking hard as opposed to the Holy Power generators.

#11 Thazable

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:18 AM

We have to keep in mind we will lose Inquisition, which is kinda huge, at least in my opinion, and these flat dmg perks might help with the lost damage. To be honest I have to say Felic is right, I'd also rather have some cool different perks which do something great for my spec and blizzard buffing my dmg up to an acceptable amount without using the perks for that stuff, but on the other hand I won't judge anything until  I do my first arena match in full season 16 gear.

Also I think using perks to give players a feeling of being rewarded for lvling is kinda cool, they just started to trash a lot of abilities, so adding like 5 new ones for every class with the new expansion would be kind of stupid in my opinion.
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#12 Shinigamix

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:33 AM

View PostCapers, on 15 April 2014 - 02:43 AM, said:

I'm not sure why people are crapping themselves about +damage % perks or calling them OP or something. Blizzard is going to balance around these, and the damage spell would do exactly the same damage without the perk. "Your crusader strike does 20% more damage as ret." Okay, well do people not realize that if the perk wasn't in, Blizzard (assuming they don't fuck up with balance) would just make crusader strike hit 20% harder anyway? The perk thing is just to make people leveling feel like they're "earning" something that isn't just 500 new abilities that do nothing important.

If Blizzard is going to make perked crusader strike (just an example) OP, they would be making it OP with or without the perk. The damage would just be modified to be the same as the damage with the perk.


#13 swincklebond

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 09:11 AM

It might just be an attempt at Ieveling ret damage as a whole. The only spell that doesn't get a flat damage increase is TV. We are gonna be doing decent damage while building up to cooldowns, and cooldowns are gonna be toned down a little with the relative dmg of TV and the rest of the increases. Sounds good to me.

#14 Clamnesia

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:04 PM

The point theyre trying to get to in WoD is getting rid of all of the useless nonsense abilities in the game. Since WOTLK, wow has become polluted with them. There are so many stupid abilities that are never used on anyone's bars. There are so many homogenized abilities between the classes. For the past 2 expansions, WoW has been a clusterfuck of way too many spells. Some retard thought up the plan to keep introducing new ones over and over to keep players entertained but really, it hurt the game more than it helped. Its harder to balance a game (PVP AND Pve) when there are a metric fuck ton of abilities. The fewer the abilities, the less time spent balancing all of those abilities around each other.
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#15 Clipback

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 01:12 PM

View PostClamnesia, on 15 April 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

The fewer the abilities, the less time spent balancing all of those abilities around each other.

Wholeheartedly agree with you. The more time they can get to balance the remaining abilities, the more we should benefit in terms of balanced gameplay. Still, we need to wait for further changes they'll surely apply to those perks. I think altogether this new perk system could work really well.

#16 Crono_Smash

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 02:16 PM

It worries my to DEATH that they're saying Ret is OK design-wise.

Ret is a lot about utility and our utility have nothing exclusive and does not scale.

Think how a Solar Beam have X utility on Arena and a X*3 utility on and RBG. Same goes for Lock, Mage, and so on.

Our utility means hands, means BoP and Sac that falls short for Arenas with 2 people, how could this work the same for 9 people? Not to mention the meta game of RBGs, it makes no sense.

Now with less CC, our Sac dispel is even less needed, BoP still on 5 min CD with everyone dispelling our survivability is a joke...

Ret is about burst, utility and off healing but everybody else's utility is better than ours, overall healing with lesser CD and no tradeoff damage too and our burst does not make up for the lack of sustained.

They have to be just INSANE to think Ret is OK. There is no reason to take Ret for an RBG, Ret brings nothing Holy doesn't. Ret rely too much on CD and CDs are just way too long if you compare with what others bring, not to mention the scale/utility problem.

It's simple as that: If Ret is OK, then they must be about to do HUGE nerfs to other classes/specs, or they just have no clue at all.

---

If they're thinking of just fixing the numbers, here is some numbers:

- Divine Shield on 3min CD
- Hand of Protection on 3min CD
- Glyph that make Hand of Protection to Immune Magic
- Hand of Sacrifice on 90s CD (they're already doing it, I know)
- All healing should heal for 2x to 4x what does today - even if it needs a CD on WoG.
- Insight Effect from Empowered Seals should be Baseline
- FoJ should be Baseline and Instant Blind should be a Talent

This numbers makes Ret "OK". Nobody will bring us for RBGs because of no exclusive utility, but at least survivability and utility is in place.
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#17 Clipback

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 02:31 PM

View PostCrono_Smash, on 28 April 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

They have to be just INSANE to think Ret is OK. There is no reason to take Ret for an RBG, Ret brings nothing Holy doesn't. Ret rely too much on CD and CDs are just way too long if you compare with what others bring, not to mention the scale/utility problem.


I'd agree with you on that point. I just don't get how they can claim that on one hand, they want to reduce CDs and CD stacking, but on the other hand, they give statements like these:

Quote

Would I be right in assuming that seraphim is designed to be a "mini burst" cd? Playing into the CD orientated ret gameplay?...
Yes. It's a small frequent CD, that also makes your other CDs more frequent. (Celestalon)
other CDs more frequent? How so? Didn't read that anywhere
With Seraphim, you should typically hit your other cooldowns while Seraphim is active (and so you have more Readiness). (Celestalon)
readiness reduces my cooldown on my major burst CDs???
That's... exactly what Readiness does, yes. (Celestalon)
oh wow! Ok, well if it's going to be temp, how will that effect calculations of CD timers? Seems complicated
While Seraphim is up, your CDs are shorter; ideal to hit them then. (Celestalon)
when seraphim goes off, the CD goes back up again? What happens if the CD was only 10 secs away with sera, then falls?
At the time that you use a CD, its remaining cooldown is locked it; it doesn't change further. It's pretty intuitive. (Celestalon)


Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but doesnt that mean : activate Seraphim, then pop all CDs that increase your damage in any way and make them benefit from readiness so that you'll be able to pop them again sooner?

#18 Crono_Smash

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 03:41 PM

View PostClipback, on 28 April 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:


Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but doesnt that mean : activate Seraphim, then pop all CDs that increase your damage in any way and make them benefit from readiness so that you'll be able to pop them again sooner?

Yup, this should reduce our main CDs. Meaning it should be Divine Shield, BoP, AW and Divine Protection. I'd say AW could go as far as 70s to 90s CD with enought Readiness but that's just me thinking.

Still, 5 Holy Power every 30s to activate this means if we do this, we won't be hitting about 2 TVs and our Skillpcap/Complexity will go over the roof with managing Sustained/Setup/Readiness/Burst/Utiltiy/Healing on top of everything else.

On one hand, Inquisition is too simple and on the other hand, Seraphim will drive PVE folks nuts, I don't think we can and should handle the complexity/gameplay.

Imagine, we holding up for 5 HP to Seraphim so we can Bubble to reduce it's CD.

Nopz. Empowered Seals will be our choice if it goes live as it is (meaning the options). Even if just for sake of Insight's Surivivability that we need so much. And the seal twisting by itself, is already hard enough.

---

All this bring us back to the good old story:

On MoP live Ret is 10% worse.
They're buffing EVERYONE by 10% for WoD.
So we will still be 10% worse then EVERYBODY ELSE in WoD.

So at WoD Ret will be OK for MoP, as on MoP Ret is OK for Cata.

That's just keeping Ret at the bottom and pretending a "Numbers Pass" will fix it. How much more damage and healing Ret should have to make up for the difference of utility/CDs of the rest of the game?

In the end, they'll do as they did on MoP anyway: Make Ret OK during Beta, then nerf it beyond retarded when it goes live, then buff half of what it should during the patches, so Ret is worse every expac.

Sorry, I'm the most optimistic one, but this is what I've been seeing again and again.

And the "Ret is OK, we're just going to fix the numbers" sounds like they just don't see it, or pretend not or just don't care.
Posted Image

-> In short: "Balance is make 6-7 specs balanced to compete and let the rest nerfed but make it playable so maybe some exeptional professional players can compete with a nerfed spec." = Blizz supports FOTM.

#19 Gigana

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:34 PM

I actually agree that ret has good mechanics.

IMHO, in a world where healers & casters have to cast and there is a lot less CC, I think all they gotta do to make us viable is buff our sustained dmg/healing to the level of other melee and make plate what it should be - a big % dmg less taken from melee.
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#20 shackalackin

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 10:37 PM

View PostCrono_Smash, on 28 April 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

It worries my to DEATH that they're saying Ret is OK design-wise.

Ret is a lot about utility and our utility have nothing exclusive and does not scale.

Think how a Solar Beam have X utility on Arena and a X*3 utility on and RBG. Same goes for Lock, Mage, and so on.

Our utility means hands, means BoP and Sac that falls short for Arenas with 2 people, how could this work the same for 9 people? Not to mention the meta game of RBGs, it makes no sense.

Now with less CC, our Sac dispel is even less needed, BoP still on 5 min CD with everyone dispelling our survivability is a joke...

Ret is about burst, utility and off healing but everybody else's utility is better than ours, overall healing with lesser CD and no tradeoff damage too and our burst does not make up for the lack of sustained.

They have to be just INSANE to think Ret is OK. There is no reason to take Ret for an RBG, Ret brings nothing Holy doesn't. Ret rely too much on CD and CDs are just way too long if you compare with what others bring, not to mention the scale/utility problem.

It's simple as that: If Ret is OK, then they must be about to do HUGE nerfs to other classes/specs, or they just have no clue at all.

---

If they're thinking of just fixing the numbers, here is some numbers:

- Divine Shield on 3min CD
- Hand of Protection on 3min CD
- Glyph that make Hand of Protection to Immune Magic
- Hand of Sacrifice on 90s CD (they're already doing it, I know)
- All healing should heal for 2x to 4x what does today - even if it needs a CD on WoG.
- Insight Effect from Empowered Seals should be Baseline
- FoJ should be Baseline and Instant Blind should be a Talent

This numbers makes Ret "OK". Nobody will bring us for RBGs because of no exclusive utility, but at least survivability and utility is in place.

Every post I see from you is nauseatingly biased. Do you actually think about how changes you recommend would work before you say them?
An immunity to all damage and CC breaker on a 3min cd (1.5min cd depending on talent choice)?
A physical damage immunity on a 3min cd tha you want to also become a complete damage (magical immunity) on a 3min CD?
I remind you forbearance is being dropped to 30sec in the expansion so these can be staggered pretty quickly
Keep in mind pallys also have divine protection which (with perks included) can now reduce magical damage by 50% on a 1min cd (30sec cd if talented) that's usable while stunned.
Sac is already on a 90sec cd upcoming and can have 2 charges if talented
Battle Fatigue is supposedly being removed so all healing will be increased
And you want FoJ baseline with instant blinding light too? Instant CC is the exact problem with this dumbass expansion, thank god blinding light is gone too because since when are pallys supposed to have more CC than other classes in addition to their utility?

I'm speaking in terms of arenas here, I could care less about a class's utility/balance in RBG's




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