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Where have all the rogues gone?

Rogue existing futile

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#41 korzal

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 07:58 PM

yay...we get to choose between crippling poison and....crippling poison

#42 Silhin

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:03 PM

View PostSplotch, on 03 April 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:


There are other examples as well for other comps that used to be rogue staples, but frankly I am flabbergasted that the community seems to think rogues are broken OP at the moment.
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Obviously, shaman have three at LEAST somewhat viable specs, but there numbers are still noticeably high.

I like how a class that is new to Xpac Vs a class that been in the game since vanilla is performing better on the ladder almost doubling the class representation . And i hate when people say class representation means nothing and its terrible thing to use when when trying to evaluate if a class is balanced or not if you can't use that WTF are we suppose to use word of mouth? If anything it should solely be based on class representation.

I also like how hybrids get more love than Regular Dps class's every pure DPS class is pigeonholed  in to playing only one spec for pvp Does no ones else see this? Why is ok for Shaman to have 3 very viable spec's and rogues barley have one? why is ok for shaman to have anything from a mix of beast cleaves or LSD or MLS or turbocleave or any mix and match of these comps but rogue can only play RMP or RMD at high ratings? Why is this ok for this game? Rogues Aren't the only class this happens to not saying warrior suck but warrior can only really play arms Dks for the most part forced in to playing unholy caster's can adept to a Diff spec than the cookie cutter's one's But i still don't see alot of arcane mages or demo lock's . Why is this ok for WW/MW to be top tier or Enhance/ele/resto to be top tier even go as far as saying holy/disc/and shadow now feral's arent even that behind from Resto druids either .

#43 Silhin

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:09 PM

View Postkorzal, on 04 April 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

yay...we get to choose between crippling poison and....crippling poison
We can thank Hunter's for that MN nerf didnt seem to be a issue when rogues had since people knew how to deal with it but the moment they gave it to hunter's holy shit storm of crying came in and it was justified hunter's didn't need it with the huge tool belt they had. Did hunter's suffer from the nerf ?nope its was just a cherry on top for them .

At this point i hope they just bake in poison's and remove em just so i don't have to apply them on weapons since there really isn't a choice anymore in WOD

Edited by Silhin, 04 April 2014 - 08:11 PM.


#44 Dak1

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:12 PM

View Postkorzal, on 04 April 2014 - 07:58 PM, said:

yay...we get to choose between crippling poison and....crippling poison

Maybe they'll make our set bonus increase Crippling Poison to a 70% snare.  That would be original.

#45 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:19 PM

View PostSilhin, on 04 April 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

I also like how hybrids get more love than Regular Dps class's every pure DPS class is pigeonholed  in to playing only one spec for pvp Does no ones else see this? Why is ok for Shaman to have 3 very viable spec's and rogues barley have one? why is ok for shaman to have anything from a mix of beast cleaves or LSD or MLS or turbocleave or any mix and match of these comps but rogue can only play RMP or RMD at high ratings? Why is this ok for this game?
i made this point a few weeks ago and got attacked by every sub 1500 shaman and druid on this website :)

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#46 Torrentialx

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:46 PM

All these deep posts about how exhausting it is to be a rogue. :rogue: :mage: :druid:
Spoiler

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#47 Dak1

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:56 PM

I remember effectively giving Mages a berserker buff and watching them blow stuff up.  Is that what you mean?

+15% from Tricks
+10% from PotW
+5% from Poison
----------------------
+32.825% damage for the Mage

#48 Doctor M

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 09:09 PM

View PostSilhin, on 04 April 2014 - 07:43 PM, said:

not only that it can save your life premed recup is pretty huge in some case's i like how they called it ''enhanced''

That what I meant by saying "More uses..."
Premed recup is strong.

But also, when you already have SnD up and get a restealth. Those 2cp's matter so much when you open.

But casual's don't know how to play around with this ability and it lead to "button bloat" for them...... -> So Blizzard simplified it...

View PostEsiwdeer, on 29 June 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

But look how fucking dumb it was like, a bot could Drain Mana just like a bot could play Hunter ATM.

#49 z4xx

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 09:26 PM

https://twitter.com/...896688609734656

Quote

Yes, Combo Points are 'on the Rogue' now.

At least one good change.

#50 mirox

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 09:26 PM

View PostDak1, on 04 April 2014 - 08:12 PM, said:

Maybe they'll make our set bonus increase Crippling Poison to a 70% snare.  That would be original.
If only... If they arent planning on buffing our mobility, this would actually be a good buff to our mobility, shit wouldnt be able to get away from us that easy.

#51 Shiqra

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 09:47 PM

hopefully they stop the pve rotation for pvp in 6.0
keeping up snd and bleeds sucks
miss wotlk rogue

#52 The_Observer

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 10:39 PM

View PostSilhin, on 04 April 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

I like how a class that is new to Xpac Vs a class that been in the game since vanilla is performing better on the ladder almost doubling the class representation . And i hate when people say class representation means nothing and its terrible thing to use when when trying to evaluate if a class is balanced or not if you can't use that WTF are we suppose to use word of mouth? If anything it should solely be based on class representation.

I also like how hybrids get more love than Regular Dps class's every pure DPS class is pigeonholed  in to playing only one spec for pvp Does no ones else see this? Why is ok for Shaman to have 3 very viable spec's and rogues barley have one? why is ok for shaman to have anything from a mix of beast cleaves or LSD or MLS or turbocleave or any mix and match of these comps but rogue can only play RMP or RMD at high ratings? Why is this ok for this game?
Don't worry they will make this better with letting hybrid's gear change by spec...

#53 shunke

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 12:01 AM

View PostDak1, on 04 April 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

Well, they did manage to nerf it between TBC and WoD.  I mean, it used to be 15 seconds and break roots, then it went up to 24 seconds and can't be used while rooted, and recently they were oh so kind to reduce it to 20 seconds.  Sprint still on a 1 min. cooldown is kind of a joke too.  Remember when it would break movement-impairing effects for Combat (sort of like, you know, the spell Monks got, Tiger's Lust, which is on a 30 sec CD)?

But I'm probably just bitching because I had high expectations for the patch notes and am pretty disappointed about them now.

How I understand this (as multi challenger!). The reason why rogues cant have reliable root breaker or high mobility and fear/stun breaker (I wont talk burst of speed now) is because of few reasons.

Imagine a class that stuns you for 8 seconds, after that garrotes you for 7 seconds. Imagine that he also has trinket + root breaker + possible stunbreaker with that "lockdown". Right now rogues can cloak possible peels(strong vs casters) after subfertuge when they are visible. But having fear/root/stun breaker with that kind of utility is too much in my opinion. And dont start bullshit "if we cloak then we die because you always can turtle and stay stealthed! ;P)

Right now if rogues wants root +/ fear-stun breaker, they should really nerf the burst damage they can do (talking about 550 ilvl rogue right now). They should also nerf abit the control they have. But they shouldnt nerf the identity of a rogue.

This leads to a conclusion "Rogues are hard to balance".
(5.0 rogue) Rogues will have no dmg but some utility combined with some burst damage. Cannot trinket random things.
(5.2 rogue) Rogues will have high burst dmg, High control (cloak & dagger + PvE trinkets 5.2).

Nothing is more disgusting than dying in smoke bomb through wall (defensive stance) to a rogue from 100 to 0 when his mage is blanketed. Even if its super hard it should never happen in my opinion.

Also I find it disgusting that a single rogue can hold trinket from some classes because of smokebomb+blind. (Warrior/R and Enhance shaman/Rogue comes  in to my mind.)

So my conclusion is that if you want to have fear/stun+/root breaker. You should tell what you are willing to lose. Because having them all makes class a really disgusting to play against!

#54 spelgubbe

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 12:25 AM

View Postshunke, on 05 April 2014 - 12:01 AM, said:

Nothing is more disgusting than dying in smoke bomb through wall (defensive stance) to a rogue from 100 to 0 when his mage is blanketed. Even if its super hard it should never happen in my opinion.

This has actually never happened. Even when PVE trinkets weren't scaled down in PvP this didn't happen, and at the moment rogues are rocking 60-80k crits on their finishers.

#55 shunke

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 12:30 AM

View Postspelgubbe, on 05 April 2014 - 12:25 AM, said:

This has actually never happened. Even when PVE trinkets weren't scaled down in PvP this didn't happen, and at the moment rogues are rocking 60-80k crits on their finishers.

You should go Veev's stream check vod where Zilea has 4s left sap and veev died.

http://www.twitch.tv/veev/c/2170766

http://www.twitch.tv/veev/c/2198435

You can clearly see what the rogue did there. To Rdruid when warrior was CC'd and to Veev when Zilea was sapped.

You can also see what frost mage dmg was back then..

Disgusting things.. disgusting!

https://www.dropbox....05 03.43.52.png

#56 spelgubbe

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 12:42 AM

View Postshunke, on 05 April 2014 - 12:30 AM, said:

You should go Veev's stream check vod where Zilea has 4s left sap and veev died.

http://www.twitch.tv/veev/c/2170766

http://www.twitch.tv/veev/c/2198435

I don't see the shield wall, but sure. I must agree that rogues are clearly not nerfed enough and this issue had nothing to do with the PVE trinket the rogue was using.

#57 shunke

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 01:06 AM

View Postspelgubbe, on 05 April 2014 - 12:42 AM, said:

I don't see the shield wall, but sure. I must agree that rogues are clearly not nerfed enough and this issue had nothing to do with the PVE trinket the rogue was using.

Why not play the martyr card.

As I said in previous post,

View Postshunke, on 05 April 2014 - 12:01 AM, said:

Nothing is more disgusting than dying in smoke bomb through wall (defensive stance) to a rogue from 100 to 0 when his mage is blanketed. Even if its super hard it should never happen in my opinion.

Then you replied,

View Postspelgubbe, on 05 April 2014 - 12:25 AM, said:

This has actually never happened. Even when PVE trinkets weren't scaled down in PvP this didn't happen, and at the moment rogues are rocking 60-80k crits on their finishers.

Ofc PvE trinkets affected and were behind the reason that damage happened in the game. What I am trying to say that it should never happen.
If you are forced to burn every defensive cooldown in opener (trinket too), Rogues if they are overpowered will finish you in smokebomb.

And I am pretty sure this is gonna happen when we all have 550 item level gear. You can quote me later.

Also the warrior had defensive stance in that game. Some classes like for example rogues doesnt have passive damage reduciton, they have it as cooldown (Divine Protection/Feint/etc.)

#58 mirox

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 01:06 AM

View Postshunke, on 05 April 2014 - 12:30 AM, said:

You should go Veev's stream check vod where Zilea has 4s left sap and veev died.

http://www.twitch.tv/veev/c/2170766

http://www.twitch.tv/veev/c/2198435

You can clearly see what the rogue did there. To Rdruid when warrior was CC'd and to Veev when Zilea was sapped.

You can also see what frost mage dmg was back then..

Disgusting things.. disgusting!

https://www.dropbox....05 03.43.52.png
Both of those videos are from pre nerf cloak and dagger and the proc agility trinket which gave you something like 12k agility or so...You can even see rogue having the proc on the stream. Rogues cannot silence people for 8 seconds as you wrote, garrote is 4 sec duration and if you do it 3 times in a row you will end up having 0 energy and your target wont magically slip,fall and die from the injuries of the fall. Every other melee has retarded abilities/stunlock and they get to have better mobility than rogues. So the whole `rogues have too much control` argument,in my opinion, is not really valid...

#59 shunke

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 01:17 AM

View Postmirox, on 05 April 2014 - 01:06 AM, said:

Both of those videos are from pre nerf cloak and dagger and the proc agility trinket which gave you something like 12k agility or so...You can even see rogue having the proc on the stream. Rogues cannot silence people for 8 seconds as you wrote, garrote is 4 sec duration and if you do it 3 times in a row you will end up having 0 energy and your target wont magically slip,fall and die from the injuries of the fall. Every other melee has retarded abilities/stunlock and they get to have better mobility than rogues. So the whole `rogues have too much control` argument,in my opinion, is not really valid...

Why do every rogue garrote x3 then cheap kidney when I play  shaman? Maybe the game is different in challenger ratings :(

#60 bt4

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 01:31 AM

View PostSilhin, on 04 April 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

I also like how hybrids get more love than Regular Dps class's every pure DPS class is pigeonholed  in to playing only one spec for pvp Does no ones else see this? Why is ok for Shaman to have 3 very viable spec's and rogues barley have one?

Cause "blizz, i want to play range damage shaman only and not heal -fix your shit" makes sense in blizzards world while for pure dps its  "3 dps spec =better declare one pvp spec and make life for us easier as we can ignore the other two" is valid since damage is all the same to them, both are pharaphrased from bluepost statements.





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