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Where have all the rogues gone?

Rogue existing futile

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#221 shunke

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 12:25 AM

View PostArtofmage, on 16 May 2014 - 11:57 PM, said:

ye and then let's autohit because we have 0 energy, but who cares about dmg if he's in a 3x cheapshot followed by 3x garrote right?

Rogue does not kill unless rogue has blades. Rogue buffs his partner (Master poisoner / + Tricks / + Prey on the weak), and his partner does the job.


View PostCradienz, on 17 May 2014 - 12:50 AM, said:

I've never seen such a huge amount of stupid posts all gathered in one place ... Like



???

Rogue CC and damage is probably the easiest in the game to stop, you know if you manage to break a Rogues rotation on someone when he's bursting or controlling you, even for just a few seconds, all his CDs and the control he had goes down the drain?

Our main CD has an 8 second duration and if you stop us in Dance we'll have no more pressure via that CD because if you miss one or two globals your burst is probably screwed completely? We don't have 30s duration offensive CDs or CDs that allows us to pressure through peels.

We also have to farm restealths because our spec is designed around openers and if we couldn't get it, we'd be in such a bad spot. Even with Burst of Speed it's really easy to stop Re's, some DoT durations are now even longer than 30 seconds, several classes has baseline abilities that can hardcounter the essence of our spec.. There shouldn't be a reason to complain about restealths

I wish it wasn't possible to mindlessly apply focus FF on-cd or whenever a Rogue receives a dispel, or jump around in Flare while disengage rooting rogue on CD (Why does a disengage have a root attached to it when disengage in itself already is a gap-opener?).

And what if more classes had active abilities like Feint, rather than passive abilities like 2nd wind/dstance/blood presence, and that you couldn't use half your defensive damage reduction CDs in stuns, and you had to predict every single stun and swap on you so you could use a short-duration ability that reduces your damage taken to be able to feel just a little bit safe?

We're more often than not forced to use a majority of our defensive CDs to maintain pressure, and that's in itself a double-edged sword since Rogues really flop in stuns. Feint just barely gives us on-par survivablity with most other classes, and the duration of CC etc. makes Feint unreliable, really, but you know what? That's what makes it fun, and I think most Rogues feel good about how our class is right now, just generally, the reliance on Stealth is a bit too harsh, but overall it feels like we're in a good spot.

I feel like that personally, and I hope others do too! I don't want Rogues to receive any sort of buff, I'd just like for other classes to come down on a level where you really don't have that many passive abilities... And that you'd have to predict and set up properly etc., and sacrifice more for CC or just generally have to make proper decisions when you want to CC, turning around 180 degrees and tripple shockwaving someone or SF all team into howl of terror isn't really demanding, it doesn't cost you anything and I don't see how that kind of gameplay can be fun at all.

Same with long duration offensive CDs or procced abilities that can do sick damage at random.. I feel like these "procs" should be gone, and I'm sure that the reason Blizzard had a CD on Lava Burst in the first place was because that in itself was a hard-hitting strong spell... It just ruins it when you slap in some mechanic and ur like "here u go now u can spam this spell that originally has a CD if ur lucky, hf" and CDs should last shorter so you have to think a bit before you use them >_>

I agree alot of things you say there.

Lets talk from some warrior pov in the rat league!

Against  :rogue: :druid: :mage: as any warrior comp
, you eat Full Clone, Full Blind, Full Sheep into possible spam roots and DR clones/sheeps.

While you are in that clone your teammate gets raped and there is nothing you can do to help them.

Dont say "use Spellreflect" because Soul of the forest clones ore pompoly deeppolys are kinda hard to reflect everytime.

Soul of the forest clone is instant, Blind is instant, even pom poly is instant on you. The rogue  spam garrote on your shaman 3 times then kidney for 6s cheapshot 3s cheapshot 1.5s etc.. while his mage partner does 100k dps to that shaman.
Also RMD Rotate CC's on your caster friend (when warrior is polymorphed,  caster is cloned etc etc). When your shaman trinkets in that opener they basicly act like he is dirt. Insta cc and switch to different target and he will never top anything up. Or they just train the fuck out of that shaman.

So you might say "Trinket it?" Do you know what happens to a warrior if he trinkets against any rogue team?

If im not CC'd in rogue mage team openers Ofc I will stormbolt disarm rogues opener maybe use fear for mage and if rogue trinkets disarm fear or stormbolt he is pretty much fucked.

It is total bullshit that any rogue here says "No rogues spam garrote or cheap shot in arena" because that is what rogues do in arena! :mad:

So again. I hate that when im playing against kinda any rogue team I'm not really playing the game. :ph34r: :heart:

#222

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 12:28 AM

View PostArtofmage, on 17 May 2014 - 10:33 PM, said:

there is a reason why rogues are not popular, and that's because in order to do dmg they need to have the opposite team cced else the opposite team will peel , and at low ratings no teams cordinates ccs on the opposite team (that's why they are low rating).Rogue does dmg in stunlocks and if he gets stunned or feared or sheeped during that time his entire burst window will be gone for nothing.
Simple as that.
You have part of the answer, but not all of it.

The MoP meta revolves around seldom-preventable, 0 setup ( often AoE) CCs, VS the abilities which break those CCs. Even melee classes, currently, are loaded with them. While casters/DPS who have always had those as their niche (Mages, Priests, Warlocks...) have been given even more, so as to retain their edge.

In that department, Rogues have... Fan of Knives. Rogues are still decent at breaking roots & snares, but those have been the least of everybody's worries for the last 2 xpacks now.

Take a good look at the Rogue talent tree, spec abilities and glyphs. Try to tell me the class has actually gained anything since WOTLK. Smoke Bomb, 100% Evasion, Shadow Blades, Prey on the Weak, Paralytic Poison, Subterfuge... all gimmicky shit that was nerfed, will be removed, can be played around or doesn't actually benefit the Rogue himself so much as it benefits his team.

This is a Blizzard game, every class is a Frontline Battle Tank. "Support" is a role that is ultimately silly in games where everyone needs to have some uber powerful abilities, or be able to deal big damage by near-randomly mashing buttons.

View Postshunke, on 18 May 2014 - 12:25 AM, said:

It is total bullshit that any rogue here says "No rogues spam garrote or cheap shot in arena" because that is what rogues do in arena! :mad:

So again. I hate that when im playing against kinda any rogue team I'm not really playing the game. :ph34r: :heart:
It is definitely something Rogues *can* do, and *will* do when it can land them a kill in combination with certain FOTM classes. Which is poor game design for at least 2 reasons:

1) Diminishing Returns were originally put into the game for many reasons. One of them was to promote thoughtful use of CC, and punish mindless spamming. It worked out perfectly back in BC, fast forward to now and things are quite different. If anything, you're encouraged to DR your own skills with one-another.

2) One-dimensional gameplay where you don't really get to play your class to its full potential, which is where Blizzard's ideas really come crashing down when they don't playtest enough. What might "make sense" from a designer's point of view, all of a sudden fails utterly when applied to the competitive meta. Shit like the ex-Lvl. 90 "Versatility" talent. Or Expose Armor being a CP builder. Or Preparation not being baseline. Or Dirty Tricks. The list goes on.

Edited by Vaneesh, 18 May 2014 - 12:52 AM.


#223 aWakakaka

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 08:49 AM

Cmon, its not that bad. I played Rogue's since last 8 years, starting with Lineage2, then AION, TESO and now WoW. Sometimes I started with a different class and in the end I realized, Rogue's are in my heart, I will never play any other class.

I am new to WoW, playing only 1 week, currently on 536  and I enjoy every bit of Rogue. I don't care how bad or good he is, I will adapt to whatever they put on Rogue. I am having 160-220 ping in Dubai and I was wondering if that could give me a huge problem, I know it does for most games. But for now it looks OK, I finally learned how to open properly, now need to improve my opening mechanics.

At ~1400 arena I am sometimes able to burst down 1 target during one single opening, that is more then enough for me to play Rogue. As soon as I reach 550, will spend tons of time testing all these bugs that Blizzard have put into Rogue.


For example, during those 3 seconds of remaining stealth I cannot use Dance and I had to make a macro to cancel those auras that prevent me doing so. I believe there are many small tips like that on Rogue and I will find them all :D

#224 Splotch

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 10:00 AM

Yeah, little tweaks like that matter for a lot of classes, cancelaura subterfuge is pretty good to have in your dance macro just in case.

#225 Speedymart

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 10:49 AM

View PostSplotch, on 03 June 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

Yeah, little tweaks like that matter for a lot of classes, cancelaura subterfuge is pretty good to have in your dance macro just in case.

Yeah I'm suprised that they still haven't fixed the subterfuge bugs yet, shit is retarded for both sides of the coin


I can't shockwave rogues in subterfuge since it won't register half the time, even though he's dancing on my teamate an inch away from me.

Alternatively I have to macro cancelauras into my vanish since subterfuge will break it for whatever reason

Edited by Speedymart, 03 June 2014 - 10:52 AM.

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