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Where have all the rogues gone?

Rogue existing futile

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#1 Splotch

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:39 AM

Hello, I have read quite a bit of complaints about how overpowered rogues are, on this classes forums and others, and I know rep is not 100% dictated by how good a class is, but you would think, if what people seem to claim is true, that there would be more then one rogue on the front page of the 3v3 ladders.


What is the issue? Did people just quit playing rogue (I know I did-it is the class I have been the highest with in the past, but frankly the having to constantly go for restealth playstlye just does not do it for me) Do rogues just not have synergy with people enough anymore? Did someone else fill our niche?

Or was it some of all of the above? What benefit does a mage have playing with a rogue over warrior these days, seriously?  Prey on the weak+tricks is essentially it-but warriors can cover part of that during the major burst periods, while putting out much, much higher pressure.

There are other examples as well for other comps that used to be rogue staples, but frankly I am flabbergasted that the community seems to think rogues are broken OP at the moment.
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Obviously, shaman have three at LEAST somewhat viable specs, but there numbers are still noticeably high.

But look at warriors. 12.8% of people over 2200 are warriors? That is what is stealing rogue numbers-warriors fill the roll rogues used to, but better.

I highly doubt anything will be done about this in the current expansion, but my doubts apply for the next expansion as well.

Are rogues simply a relic of the past? We used to have a niche as a cc+burst class, and sometimes as a CC+sustained class-but now, what do we have that warriors do not? Smoke bomb and tricks of the trade? Warriors have stuns, better mobility (burst of speed is an abomination, yes, but it is not exactly a gap closer such as charge) and an aoe fear, which functions basically the same as rogue blind, but does not break on damage right away.



#2 Darksoldierr

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:53 AM

You fool, they are in stealth.
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#3 Silhin

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 12:13 PM

Rogues aren't that fun anymore .

Every other class is just more fun to play cuz they either have a 2nd trinket or have better oh shit buttons if you really sit down and look at it rogues is the  only class left with ability that you u have to use before u get CCed or butt fucked and dont have to have get  3 trinkets out the way to kill or 3 cds out the way to kill all you got to do is force trinket and there pretty ez to kill or CC every other class has like 2-3 outs .I think being a melee with those problem hurt the class too much and make it less fun compared to lets say a WW monk or warrior when warrior wants to stop all damage magic physical he pops Die or shield wall when a monk wants to he pops karma when a rogues wants to he pops evasion and cloak  not to mention rogues dont have a fear break stun break or root break unlike every other melee witch he either one of these or all yes rogues have cooldowns they can use to get out or counter these ability but there much longer than there counter part .


TLDR U dont see rogues playing the game right now cuz most the time when they play the game they don't get to play the game . See what i did thur?

#4 Elorxo

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 12:13 PM

rogue feels boring now compared to what it used to be like so i presume people just stopped playing rogue

#5 Marshmellow

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 12:27 PM

rip nerve strike
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#6 y0utub3

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:11 PM

left my rogue 4 a WW Monk...same Play style, more fun, better Combo System.

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#7 spelgubbe

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:20 PM

Stun dr being 25 sec for some fucking reason (rip wotlk?)
classes being in combat because of stupid spells (healing stream, lightwell)
Backstab 11k hit.
most classes having 2 trinkets.

#8 KPul

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:39 PM

Rogues aren't fun anymore to play.    I know when the stars align i can put out ridiculous damage but when it comes to arenas in order to be successful as a rogue it demands so much synergy to be successful.  Its to the point that it's exhausting to get a win even vs the worst teams.

Also, I've been saying it for a long time but whenever you hit seasons where Hunters or Ferals are the most played class you'll see less and less of rogues playing.    I know when I enter an arena and I see a team make a gauntlet with flares and AoE spam in a tight corner to prevent the rogue opener I laugh.    It makes rogue openers inconsistent and its often unreliable to have a good opener strategy when there are so many targetable AoEs to put a rogue's team in combat.

Rogue gameplay is second nature for me and I'm sure its the same for plenty of other players who have been playing since BC/Wrath.  I am constantly asked how to do simple things like "how to open for good burst" and it leads me to believe that rogue gameplay, in order to be successful, needs to take advantage of every global properly otherwise they will fail immensely and thats too much of a learning curve for a new player. Regardless of how much damage rogues can potentially do I think they have the biggest gap between a new player and a skill capped player.    The reason there are so few rogues playing is because its exhausting and requires so much setup to win against teams that are hundreds of MMR lower than you compared to other classes. The gameplay is stale and easily countered.  The entirety of an arena match as a rogue is determined in the first 20 seconds of an arena and thats not fun / too hard to recover from a mistake.  I think the biggest reason rogue population is so low is because rogues look fun on paper/stream but they immediately turn a player away when they see how much setup it takes vs playing another class to actually be successful.
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#9 Shinigamix

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:43 PM

Id be happy to play with rogues but cant find any from trade = (

#10 Accused_AU

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:48 PM

Yes, rogues are (in my opinion) unfairly labelled as overpowered these days, the class needs a bit of balancing work done to it.

But hey, who cares? After 4.3 and the legendary dagger catastrophe I know I sure don't.

Oh, and don't fret - yes this season warriors are a viable replacement for rogues in most comps, but then again the tables were reversed (and warriors were swapped for rogues in every comp) for the entirety of the Cataclysm expansion.

Give it time and rogues again will have their time to be the focal point of everyone's QQ.
True.

#11 Hackattack3

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:52 PM

View PostKPul, on 03 April 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

Rogues aren't fun anymore to play. I know when the stars align i can put out ridiculous damage but when it comes to arenas in order to be successful as a rogue it demands so much synergy to be successful.  Its to the point that it's exhausting to get a win even vs the worst teams.

Also, I've been saying it for a long time but whenever you hit seasons where Hunters or Ferals are the most played class you'll see less and less of rogues playing. I know when I enter an arena and I see a team make a gauntlet with flares and AoE spam in a tight corner to prevent the rogue opener I laugh. It makes rogue openers inconsistent and its often unreliable to have a good opener strategy when there are so many targetable AoEs to put a rogue's team in combat.

Rogue gameplay is second nature for me and I'm sure its the same for plenty of other players who have been playing since BC/Wrath.  I am constantly asked how to do simple things like "how to open for good burst" and it leads me to believe that rogue gameplay, in order to be successful, needs to take advantage of every global properly otherwise they will fail immensely and thats too much of a learning curve for a new player. Regardless of how much damage rogues can potentially do I think they have the biggest gap between a new player and a skill capped player. The reason there are so few rogues playing is because its exhausting and requires so much setup to win against teams that are hundreds of MMR lower than you compared to other classes. The gameplay is stale and easily countered.  The entirety of an arena match as a rogue is determined in the first 20 seconds of an arena and thats not fun / too hard to recover from a mistake.  I think the biggest reason rogue population is so low is because rogues look fun on paper/stream but they immediately turn a player away when they see how much setup it takes vs playing another class to actually be successful.

The other part of this is a rogue requires "skill-capped" and knowledgeable teammates that fully understand the rogue.  His/her strengths/weaknesses and burst windows.  Why would a hunter want to worry about lining everything up with a rogue when he can just face roll with a warrior and spam random instant cc?

Edited by Hackattack3, 03 April 2014 - 01:53 PM.


#12 AcerMVP

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:55 PM

I actually agree with Kpul for once. Rogues this whole xpac have been underplayed because it's become a shitfest. I don't even play my rogue anymore. I log on once a week just to get my 10 wins and bounce off my rogue.

and this

View PostHackattack3, on 03 April 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

The other part of this is a rogue requires "skill-capped" and knowledgeable teammates that fully understand the rogue.  His/her strengths/weaknesses and burst windows.  Why would a hunter want to worry about lining everything up with a rogue when he can just face roll with a warrior and spam random instant cc?

The only people I can normally play with are friends (Thug/RLS are my only choices atm). Nobody wants a rogue in their team anymore pretty much.

Edited by AcerMVP, 03 April 2014 - 01:57 PM.


#13 Kelzanx

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:08 PM

View PostSilhin, on 03 April 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

Rogues aren't that fun anymore .

Every other class is just more fun to play cuz they either have a 2nd trinket or have better oh shit buttons if you really sit down and look at it rogues is the  only class left with ability that you u have to use before u get CCed or butt fucked and dont have to have get  3 trinkets out the way to kill or 3 cds out the way to kill all you got to do is force trinket and there pretty ez to kill or CC every other class has like 2-3 outs .I think being a melee with those problem hurt the class too much and make it less fun compared to lets say a WW monk or warrior when warrior wants to stop all damage magic physical he pops Die or shield wall when a monk wants to he pops karma when a rogues wants to he pops evasion and cloak  not to mention rogues dont have a fear break stun break or root break unlike every other melee witch he either one of these or all yes rogues have cooldowns they can use to get out or counter these ability but there much longer than there counter part .


TLDR U dont see rogues playing the game right now cuz most the time when they play the game they don't get to play the game . See what i did thur?

Totally agree...
I can add that rogues is very frustrating to play because :
- You only have one trinket
- You can't activate a defensive cd while stunned
- No passive damage reduction (you have to preshot feint and it costs dps)
- You rely too much on your partner and require good coordination, ToT offensively and dispel/heal defensively
- You only have one gap closer so it means that your healer need to be good to dispel you otherwise it will takes ages to connect again with your target (or you will need to use a cd to be able to stun after ShS)
- You partner has to learn to play with a rogue to be able to set up a good burst and to have a good opener (stealth and cc wise)
- You don't do any damage outside of burst (a bit less true this season)
- Burst is harder to set up than most of the class, dps may be harder too : 2 self buff to take care (SnD, MoS, eventually ridiculous self heal : recuperate), 2 debuffs (FW, SV, eventually all bleeds effect and Weaken armor) + pooling energy&CP before bursting with ToT...
When you compare to ww monk for example, you only have one buff (+30%arpen) and to use your stacks then a RSK (and you've already done 160k+) xD
- Burst is really short and easy to counter, most of good teams only throw a short cc to break your dance and you're basically fucked, so again, to be efficient, you need to set up and cross cc like hell (which is much harder than throwing a gargoyl)
- Most of defensive CD are a bit hard to use because of some factors :
    * Most of stuns (except rogue and ww's one) can't be dodge so basically, if you get stunned after having used evade, you're best and almost only CD againt physical damage becomes useless (even though its duration is longer than some stuns), can or should be used offensively during Dance when a hunter is free (to avoid scater) or against ww with stun cd ready
    * CoS should almost always be used while dancing against casters (especially demo) if you can't set up proper cross cc, so you're best and strong defenseive ability against magical damage is often used offensively
    * Vanish is particular too : allow to burst as small "dance" (part of dps in pve), and to survive if used defensively... This CD can be hard counter by flare or Faery fire, especially frustrating when those spells are launched at the same time as vanish where your vanish is just totally fucked
So except feint, all defensive CD are either hard counterable or should be used offensively (even for mobility sometimes) in most of the case. So it's easy to misjudge a situation a not use a CD effenciently
- Against most of the teams, you've to win in 2-3min otherwise most of comp will simply crush you
- You can only play with mage or hunt
- It can be hard to have good openers with all AoE currently in the game (Rain of fire say "Hello")
- When you are root, you can simply afk (except COS and Vanish ofc) while almost all other melee can do something (Dk grip stun Death Coil, Shaman kick hex totem, Ret lib assist heal repent/fear bop sac, WW lib assist heal RJW chi wave para RoP, only War has few thing to do : safeguard RC reflect)
- Lot of bind macro needed

So less fun to play...

#14 Silhin

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:19 PM

I play war dk monk rogue and feral aside from ret and enhance i play almost all melee and rogue/Dk r the worst and least fun to play currently even Feral is more fun than rogue

#15 cubas

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:23 PM

1) Rogues depend too much on opener, which can be neglected by random AOE / smart play
2) Rogues don't do ANY damage outside of dance / vanish  (14k backstab/9k hemo anyone?)
3) Rogues are super easy to CC

Due to all classes having so many outs/defensives, rogues have became boring to play. Even if people fuck-up, they still have some others oh shit buttons.
:rogue: kidz

#16 swagoverlord

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:33 PM

Bump it for kpul for once he's actually right
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#17 Distraught193

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 03:14 PM

View PostKPul, on 03 April 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

Rogues aren't fun anymore to play. I know when the stars align i can put out ridiculous damage but when it comes to arenas in order to be successful as a rogue it demands so much synergy to be successful.  Its to the point that it's exhausting to get a win even vs the worst teams.

Also, I've been saying it for a long time but whenever you hit seasons where Hunters or Ferals are the most played class you'll see less and less of rogues playing. I know when I enter an arena and I see a team make a gauntlet with flares and AoE spam in a tight corner to prevent the rogue opener I laugh. It makes rogue openers inconsistent and its often unreliable to have a good opener strategy when there are so many targetable AoEs to put a rogue's team in combat.

Rogue gameplay is second nature for me and I'm sure its the same for plenty of other players who have been playing since BC/Wrath.  I am constantly asked how to do simple things like "how to open for good burst" and it leads me to believe that rogue gameplay, in order to be successful, needs to take advantage of every global properly otherwise they will fail immensely and thats too much of a learning curve for a new player. Regardless of how much damage rogues can potentially do I think they have the biggest gap between a new player and a skill capped player. The reason there are so few rogues playing is because its exhausting and requires so much setup to win against teams that are hundreds of MMR lower than you compared to other classes. The gameplay is stale and easily countered.  The entirety of an arena match as a rogue is determined in the first 20 seconds of an arena and thats not fun / too hard to recover from a mistake.  I think the biggest reason rogue population is so low is because rogues look fun on paper/stream but they immediately turn a player away when they see how much setup it takes vs playing another class to actually be successful.
this 100%

#18 Amplituhedron

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 03:54 PM

There are no more rogues they turned them into bards. Do you harp?

#19 Darksoldierr

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:29 PM

As an enhance shaman, there is nothing worse than rogues. For everything else, i agree that the class is very skill based, and a single fuck up can ruin the entire match with the amount of dmg flying around, compared to TBC or Wotlk where you was able to recover purely by skills.
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#20 Hoodzx

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:32 PM

delete paralytic poison,

thx cya





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