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Full Mastery Ele?

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#21 Kurieb

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 09:53 PM

I think it's a preference thing, just like many things in PvP tend to be. If you feel like you play better with a mastery set, then I would advise you to play with your mastery set until you feel like trying something else. The Intellect loss seems pretty severe, but It's very well possible that the 14% mastery offsets the loss.


Ya I just made this thread to see if anyone else tried/ will try mastery and see if they liked it. Alas this is AJ. =P
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#22 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 10:04 PM

I see you backed your comment with some solid reasoning.

so cute, the warlock forum had this debate like two months ago

This is actually -not- true for Spell Haste, because you have breakpoints. These breakpoints function like resets in ''stat worth''. What this means is that haste will get worse the more you get, until you hit the breakpoint where it will reset back to its original strength. This is also why people don't like to get haste past a certain breakpoint, because it's usually a weak stat to have when you can't reach the next one. This works up until you hit the GCD cap, of course, where haste loses a large part of what makes it attractive.

just to check, dots dps does not increase as you gain haste, apart from when you hit a break point, and when you hit the break point, dot dps spikes up, thats basically what you are arguing right?

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 23 March 2014 - 10:05 PM.

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No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)


#23 Forumz

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 10:17 PM

No, I'm argueing stat strength on a point-by-point basis. The example I used for crit applies to haste as well, except that when you hit a breakpoint the strength of 1 point of haste goes back to what it normally starts at.

I'm not talking about DPS.

Why do you think people aim for breakpoints, rather than simply getting as much haste as they possibly can? This is why. The exception is when haste is the strongest stat for a spec even without getting a breakpoint, but that's not what I'm talking about whatsoever.

Edited by Forumz, 23 March 2014 - 10:20 PM.

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#24 Flaubertlives

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 10:28 PM

The break points do exist, I have tested this. At about 35% haste I got an extra tick from flame shock!


Of course they exist, they do on all DoTs... but they only exist IF they last the ENTIRE duration. If they are removed, if you overlap them the extra breakpoint is utterly meaningless.

Each point of haste increases the time between each tick by a small amount; this is true for EVERY point of haste, breakpoint or not.

Haste is the best stat "before 35%" or whatever percentage you arbitrarily decided to assign to it in your opinion. However, the truth is that if Haste is best before that point, it is in fact best afterwards too.

The only way Haste could become less appealing is if you got to the point that you were consistently "losing" Lava Surge procs due to not using them fast enough. I'll save you the time and effort, we will NEVER reach that point.

Haste is the King... Long live haste.
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#25 Kurieb

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 10:44 PM

Of course they exist, they do on all DoTs... but they only exist IF they last the ENTIRE duration. If they are removed, if you overlap them the extra breakpoint is utterly meaningless.

Each point of haste increases the time between each tick by a small amount; this is true for EVERY point of haste, breakpoint or not.

Haste is the best stat "before 35%" or whatever percentage you arbitrarily decided to assign to it in your opinion. However, the truth is that if Haste is best before that point, it is in fact best afterwards too.

The only way Haste could become less appealing is if you got to the point that you were consistently "losing" Lava Surge procs due to not using them fast enough. I'll save you the time and effort, we will NEVER reach that point.

Haste is the King... Long live haste.


You seem to be basing not being able to use procs before another tick of flameshock on single target. Where in arena (3v3 for my purposes) you will have 2-3+ shocks out at any time, meaning that overlapping ticks do occur. As for my "arbitrary" 35%, that is a dot break point for flameshock and since it is easily obtainable you aim for 35% "in pvp". Gaining more haste for faster ticks is only beneficial if you are only dotting one target where ticks cannot overlap during a global. An extra dot tick is not all that beneficial since they get dispelled/ reapplied but you get so close to break point just with base stats from gear that it is worth it to hit 35%.
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#26 Samyh

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 11:19 PM

Tried out full mastery last season in RBGs (around 2300). I wouldn't advise it for arena, run it with Echo in RBGs for maximum retard 9 for the price of 1 lvb if you know what im sayin

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gotta love ele its a complete piss take of a class
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#27 Frequently

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 11:20 PM

I've seen people using haste for faster ticks after the 35% break-point and to me it seems worthless. A .10 faster tick can help sometimes but it can also be a detriment since ticks can overlap and essentially lose you a reset. You are basically hoping that you do not get a proc during a proc (which is completely RnG based and having faster ticks will not help this, technically more haste should make this double proc issue happen more often). When you have 3-4 flame shocks out getting procs will never be an issue, so to me making the most of those procs makes more sense, aka mastery. I can tell a large difference when I have 3+ shocks up with the extra mastery. I've had many instances of 3+ resets where every reset procced mastery.

tl;dr -- Having more haste for faster ticks does not necessarily net you more procs since we can only have one lava-surge buff at a time.


Trust me more haste for faster ticks always means you will get more procs. Look at this way, do you want lava surger procs that do full 100% lava burst damage and have a chance to proc 75% mastery (56% mastery on my fully haste geared ele) or just 75% of the original lava burst's damage to occur ~10% more often off of your original lava burst. All the highest rated Ele's are still reforged full haste and have Int Haste orange gems. It's definitely worth being full haste, haste may start to diminish at 35%, but haste also gives you shorter global cooldowns and is very helpful when you are casting.
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#28 Kurieb

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 11:48 PM

Trust me more haste for faster ticks always means you will get more procs. Look at this way, do you want lava surger procs that do full 100% lava burst damage and have a chance to proc 75% mastery (56% mastery on my fully haste geared ele) or just 75% of the original lava burst's damage to occur ~10% more often off of your original lava burst. All the highest rated Ele's are still reforged full haste and have Int Haste orange gems. It's definitely worth being full haste, haste may start to diminish at 35%, but haste also gives you shorter global cooldowns and is very helpful when you are casting.


Faster ticks potentially mean more procs (like i said in other responses they can overlap so it's all RnG), but throughout a game it won't be a huge difference in procs. Going from around 54-67% means you are reducing the number of times a cast does not proc by about 1/3rd (you are basically fighting against the chance to not proc). Only thing that makes it potentially worse is losing intellect. Just thought I'd try it since it reduces RnG for ele who is just a stars-align class in MoP =(.
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#29 jaimee

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 11:58 PM

mastery feels clunky, boring, and too rng. I prefer haste as pretty much every caster esp with the amount of knockbacks on casts and general annoyingness of melee.
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if you play a disc priest you are not a real human being 


#30 Flaubertlives

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 12:21 AM

You seem to be basing not being able to use procs before another tick of flameshock on single target. Where in arena (3v3 for my purposes) you will have 2-3+ shocks out at any time, meaning that overlapping ticks do occur. As for my "arbitrary" 35%, that is a dot break point for flameshock and since it is easily obtainable you aim for 35% "in pvp". Gaining more haste for faster ticks is only beneficial if you are only dotting one target where ticks cannot overlap during a global. An extra dot tick is not all that beneficial since they get dispelled/ reapplied but you get so close to break point just with base stats from gear that it is worth it to hit 35%.


If overlapping occurs like you said, then breakpoints mean NOTHING. Why are you aiming for it? What does it do for you other than sate your need to reach some sort of "cap".?

I have 37% haste currently. FS ticks every 2.18 seconds - if it is on 2 targets, this is on average, assuming 100% uptime, 1.09 seconds. On 3 targets it becomes 0.73 seconds.

As Lava Surge chance is a constant (20%), we can work out the average time between procs if we assume 1 proc every 5 ticks. (Yes I'm aware this is not ideal, but it will do for these purposes)

At 37% haste (my character);

1 FS = LvS proc every 10.9 seconds
2 FS = LvS proc every 5.5 seconds
3 FS = LvS proc every 3.63 seconds

Going up to 50% haste (I think the max you can push out is 52% ish as a Goblin with full haste gems + BS/JC, but whatever), each tick is down to 2seconds.

1 FS = LvS proc every 10 seconds
2 FS = LvS proc every 5 seconds
3 FS = LvS proc every 3.33 seconds

It's still going to be a rare occasion where you get procs overlapping, and chances are you could be using them faster anyway.

Also, as was shown on the other page be Forumz, Mastery like Crit, gets worse the more you get of it. This is not the case for Haste which only improves.

And yes you reduce RNG by making procs more consistent as you said, but this is the same case for getting more haste anyway.

A final point is alluding to the fact of maximum burst. If you truely want to global people, you would gear Int > Crit and take Ele Blast. Crit for Elemental is a 2.5x modifier (2.58 with PvE meta gem), and you could see 150k Ele blasts into 100k Fulminations.
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#31 Kurieb

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 12:33 AM

If overlapping occurs like you said, then breakpoints mean NOTHING. Why are you aiming for it? What does it do for you other than sate your need to reach some sort of "cap".?

I have 37% haste currently. FS ticks every 2.18 seconds - if it is on 2 targets, this is on average, assuming 100% uptime, 1.09 seconds. On 3 targets it becomes 0.73 seconds.

As Lava Surge chance is a constant (20%), we can work out the average time between procs if we assume 1 proc every 5 ticks. (Yes I'm aware this is not ideal, but it will do for these purposes)

At 37% haste (my character);

1 FS = LvS proc every 10.9 seconds
2 FS = LvS proc every 5.5 seconds
3 FS = LvS proc every 3.63 seconds

Going up to 50% haste (I think the max you can push out is 52% ish as a Goblin with full haste gems + BS/JC, but whatever), each tick is down to 2seconds.

1 FS = LvS proc every 10 seconds
2 FS = LvS proc every 5 seconds
3 FS = LvS proc every 3.33 seconds

It's still going to be a rare occasion where you get procs overlapping, and chances are you could be using them faster anyway.

Also, as was shown on the other page be Forumz, Mastery like Crit, gets worse the more you get of it. This is not the case for Haste which only improves.

And yes you reduce RNG by making procs more consistent as you said, but this is the same case for getting more haste anyway.

A final point is alluding to the fact of maximum burst. If you truely want to global people, you would gear Int > Crit and take Ele Blast. Crit for Elemental is a 2.5x modifier (2.58 with PvE meta gem), and you could see 150k Ele blasts into 100k Fulminations.


Crit is terrible apart from ele. blast and fulm (which you don't spam once you get full 7 stack and mainly use for an execute). By going crit and ele blast it would be counter productive since I would be relying completely on a crit from an ability on a 12 second cd. As for the overlap I'm not trying to prove it is a real issue just something that I do notice. And what forumz said about haste is that it gets worse the more you have between break points (which for ele aren't a big deal). The only real reason people go for 35% is how easy it is to obtain. I am not even sure why people are comparing haste vs mastery since even in pve the eles seems to go mastery. The issue I am stating is basically: Is the intellect lose worth the mastery gain.

The difference between eles who are going haste vs my full mastery is only about 1.5-2% haste which is not a factor at all. The only real difference between gemming mastery is whether the loss of intellect is worth it.
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#32 Flaubertlives

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 12:47 AM

Crit is terrible apart from ele. blast and fulm (which you don't spam once you get full 7 stack and mainly use for an execute). By going crit and ele blast it would be counter productive since I would be relying completely on a crit from an ability on a 12 second cd. As for the overlap I'm not trying to prove it is a real issue just something that I do notice. And what forumz said about haste is that it gets worse the more you have between break points (which for ele aren't a big deal). The only real reason people go for 35% is how easy it is to obtain. I am not even sure why people are comparing haste vs mastery since even in pve the eles seems to go mastery. The issue I am stating is basically: Is the intellect lose worth the mastery gain.

The difference between eles who are going haste vs my full mastery is only about 1.5-2% haste which is not a factor at all. The only real difference between gemming mastery is whether the loss of intellect is worth it.


Forumz doesn't say that haste gets worse... that's the point of the post. The other stats do while haste doesn't. And I'm aware that Crit is a bad stat in general, but as someone mentionned Ele being a one-shot machine, I thought I'd address that - I wasn't saying Crit is the way to go in general.

Going to 35% because it's "easy" is not a reason to go for it. 37% is easy, 40% will be easy soon, 45% will be easy at the end of the season.

The point remains that breakpoints mean nothing for Elemental, and if haste is the best stat before your abitrary 35%, then it's the best stat afterwards too.
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#33 Moshe

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 01:15 AM

Ele reforge guide:

haste = more burst
mastery = more burst
crit = don't do it

You're welcome
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