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5.4.7 Face-Off: Feral Druid vs. Arms Warrior

Feral Warrior Comparison

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#21 Accelerator

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 07:31 PM

View PostSnuggli, on 19 March 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

First point (Opener):
It's very unlikely a Warrior will get a 'bad' opener. Warriors can also stop Warlock gates which can be huge. Feral Druids have the potential to get AoE'd out (no subterfuge) and not get an opener at all. Not saying one is better than the other, it's just not as easy as putting feral druid down as a pro and warrior down as a con. They are both good in their own ways.


Second Point (Burst):
Warrior burst is farrrrrrrrr more devastating than Feral burst. It's way higher in terms of damage, skull banner also provides a benefit for your team and it's far easier just to press your 1shot and slam twice than it is to press your incarnation/berserk macro and have slightly increased damage over a 10~ second period. I've popped feral CDs into a target who's in a 5 second stun with CC on their healer and have them leave with more health than they started, the burst really isn't there. Also, another point to make, Warriors have a fear break and a magic reflect - this gives them 2 'immunities' to have as backup when popping CDs. They may be susceptible to Polymorph, but unless the Mage PoMs it, it's pretty easy to stop.. making Feral CDs much easier to peel.


Third Point (Difficulty):
Difficulty shouldn't really be taken into account when balancing, but i'd say Feral and Warrior aren't that different anymore. Feral has lost a lot of it's difficulty since Wrath/Cata times, and now we've lost instant clone it's lost pretty much all of it's skillcap. If you're able to keep track of 3 timers Feral is simple as shit.


Seventh Point (CC):
Ferals have hardly any CC, like, at all. One of the lowest CC classes in the game. It's the biggest con about Feral right now. Warriors have slightly more than Feral but have way more utility. Feral should definitely be in con here.


11th Point (Sustained Dmg):
Warrior is wayyy higher here. Deep Wounds does almost as much as both Rip and Rake added together, and Warriors hit like a truck on top of that.



These are the major ones where you're wrong, in the other ones I either agree or it's a minor mistake. The main point overall is that Warriors bring stuns, utility, huge damage and massive burst. Ferals bring .......................................... immunity to roots, slows and polymorph, and a hex/wyvern dispel.. that's about it. Everything else Warriors do better.

Doesnt get more Bias than this.
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#22 Rakeesh_1392206

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 08:11 PM

It depends on the style of PVP (arena, rbg, wpvp) but in general warrior wins in all of these because it does much better at its intended portion of the metagame. That is, it is able to do more damage.

Over time, they both do similar damage on say a target dummy, or even multiple target dummies, with the feral maybe even doing slightly better damage.

However this does not translate to PVP. Feral has a VERY long ramp up time (mainly the way you have to build up SR and rip.) Normally not a huge deal, except in PVP you're always susceptible to peels. Here's an example:

For feral you have to build 5cp savage roar, then 5cp rip in order to do *normal* damage (i.e. damage over time that's on par with everybody else.) With no cooldowns available, this can take up to 20 seconds. If you land all crits and have cooldowns available (tiger's fury) it can be reduced to 8.

For warrior to be maximizing damage, just open with mortal strike. That's it. Practically zero ramp up time. (Also, you really can't get a bad opener with a warrior, whereas if as a feral you get popped out of stealth before you open, then you're guaranteed a bad opener)

Naturally you can see that if the feral gets peeled, it can be really punishing on his damage output. If the warrior gets peeled, he's not really out much. In addition to that, several warrior abilities are long CD with no resource requirements, so if he gets peeled he's not out a whole lot because his CD's have to refresh anyways. Contrast to the feral druid, where if his target peels out then he has to start with buck zero combo points (unless his target kites him into being overextended from his healers, which is very bad for him.)

As an added benefit, if the warrior really needs to get a kill off RIGHT THERE, he has tools (especially bladestorm) to break peels and/or render himself immune to them or avoid them pre-emptively (e.g. spell reflect, aoe interrupt.) The feral can break roots all day, but those hit diminish so fast anyways that it's not a terribly good asset in the end. A lot of classes have instant self-peels that a feral absolutely cannot avoid and just has to flat out eat (e.g. say you need a fast kill on that priest, he just psychic screams and you have to eat it, but warrior can zerk out of it or bladestorm before it happens.)

Also while a feral can break roots any time whenever, a warrior can break roots when he absolutely needs to, so not a huge win on the part of the feral there given that the feral can't break or avoid anything else.

#23 Oohgod

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 01:30 PM

Quote

compare peoples reactions to when berserk is popped to when skullbanner/reck is popped.

Yeah cause people overeact to "swifty one shot" from warriors, the warrior burst abilities aren't even that scary, +30% crit and +30% damage to crit (on a banner able to be one shotted) isn't really that scary except if you're in execute range, warriors barely do more damage with their one shot macro popped while ferals more than double their sustain damage

I feel like warrior don't need their burst abilities to score a kill while ferals rely on it

#24 bouncyballs

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 03:39 PM

View PostRakeesh_1392206, on 19 March 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:


However this does not translate to PVP. Feral has a VERY long ramp up time (mainly the way you have to build up SR and rip.) Normally not a huge deal, except in PVP you're always susceptible to peels. Here's an example:

For feral you have to build 5cp savage roar, then 5cp rip in order to do *normal* damage (i.e. damage over time that's on par with everybody else.) With no cooldowns available, this can take up to 20 seconds. If you land all crits and have cooldowns available (tiger's fury) it can be reduced to 8.

For warrior to be maximizing damage, just open with mortal strike. That's it. Practically zero ramp up time. (Also, you really can't get a bad opener with a warrior, whereas if as a feral you get popped out of stealth before you open, then you're guaranteed a bad opener)

Naturally you can see that if the feral gets peeled, it can be really punishing on his damage output. If the warrior gets peeled, he's not really out much. In addition to that, several warrior abilities are long CD with no resource requirements, so if he gets peeled he's not out a whole lot because his CD's have to refresh anyways. Contrast to the feral druid, where if his target peels out then he has to start with buck zero combo points (unless his target kites him into being overextended from his healers, which is very bad for him.)

As an added benefit, if the warrior really needs to get a kill off RIGHT THERE, he has tools (especially bladestorm) to break peels and/or render himself immune to them or avoid them pre-emptively (e.g. spell reflect, aoe interrupt.) The feral can break roots all day, but those hit diminish so fast anyways that it's not a terribly good asset in the end. A lot of classes have instant self-peels that a feral absolutely cannot avoid and just has to flat out eat (e.g. say you need a fast kill on that priest, he just psychic screams and you have to eat it, but warrior can zerk out of it or bladestorm before it happens.)

Also while a feral can break roots any time whenever, a warrior can break roots when he absolutely needs to, so not a huge win on the part of the feral there given that the feral can't break or avoid anything else.

I'm sorry but clearly we aren't playing the same game if you aren't considering root breaks very good. Also Ferals are immune to polymorph. Also if a feral plays with paladin he gets bubble.

I am not saying warriors do not have this just stupid ability to keep on any target they want.... but for you to say it's easier to peel a druid because you can fear him... that is so incredibly ignorant.

Also why in the world do you need a 5 point savage roar when the points don't effect the amount of increased damage but rather the time it lasts. This sounds like it's an issue with your inability to optimize combo point usage.

I honestly don't understand how people can post things and not think about what they have posted.

#25

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 04:37 PM

Comparing feral and warrior on this patch is not very wise:P

Feral is more fun tho.

#26 Nilen

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 06:57 PM

There's certainly a fair amount of people who consider the comparison redundant considering the state of warriors. However, for someone who isn't terribly well versed in either class, Ferals appear in good shape - at a glance, anyway; as you'll see if you read the OP. There's been some constructive feedback along the way as well, and perhaps you could elaborate a tad on what makes Ferals more entertaining to play, please? (the same has been mentioned by others as well).

#27 Rakeesh_1392206

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 10:10 PM

View Postbouncyballs, on 20 March 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

I'm sorry but clearly we aren't playing the same game if you aren't considering root breaks very good. Also Ferals are immune to polymorph. Also if a feral plays with paladin he gets bubble.

It's not that it's not very good, it's that it doesn't provide a big enough advantage to be worth picking up a feral. Also all things considered, polymorph isn't the greatest CC. Unlike say a fear or a stun, you can't die in a poly, not only that but throwing a poly on a damaged player can help them in some cases.

View Postbouncyballs, on 20 March 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

I am not saying warriors do not have this just stupid ability to keep on any target they want.... but for you to say it's easier to peel a druid because you can fear him... that is so incredibly ignorant.

I didn't say that. Fear is certainly part of it, but there's a lot more to it than that, just as I pointed out. I can expand on that as well: Since we're comparing warriors to ferals, look how many different CCs in the game that warriors can break (roots among them) in addition to spell reflect and about 7 different ways of interrupting a spell cast, with just over half of those ranged interrupts. If you're getting CC chained as a warrior, you're kind of bad.

View Postbouncyballs, on 20 March 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

Also why in the world do you need a 5 point savage roar when the points don't effect the amount of increased damage but rather the time it lasts. This sounds like it's an issue with your inability to optimize combo point usage.

You are seriously misreading my posts. I don't know if that stems from your fundamental misunderstanding of game mechanics or overall naivete, but I pretty clearly outlined the differences in time it takes to build full damage output. Of course you don't have to do a full SR, but for *normal* (as in not gimped) damage you don't want to be pumping out single cp savage roars all the time (nor glyphed zero cp.) Remember savage roar isn't free.

View Postbouncyballs, on 20 March 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

I honestly don't understand how people can post things and not think about what they have posted.

Exactly.

#28 Rakeesh_1392206

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 10:14 PM

View PostNilen, on 20 March 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

perhaps you could elaborate a tad on what makes Ferals more entertaining to play, please? (the same has been mentioned by others as well).

IMO it's the overall build of the kit. Difficult to explain without actually playing it, but you get all of the fun of stealthing around like a rogue while also having casting abilities. That and the shenanigans I used to pull in stormwind (randomly getting mauled by a kitty) adds a fun element to it.

I really do love the spec, just it can't compete in PVP right now, sadly.





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