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#1 e130478

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 09:40 PM

I think there are too many defensive abilities in the game right now. It feels like a lot of classes have semi-morphed into hybrid archetypes. Even as shaman, I have way too many powerful "instant-out" abilities -- windwalker totem, spirit-link totem, healing tide totem, earthgrab spec, 4-piece pvp immune silence/interrupt etc.  This effect seems to be doubly reinforced by the ridiculous amount of instant CC in the game. Does anyone else feel this way, or am I just another annoying old-timer waxing nostalgic about the "old-school."

Edited by e130478, 03 March 2014 - 09:45 PM.


#2 Filthpig

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 10:05 PM

You list all that and shamans are still the easiest healer to kill in the game man lol, it's just a sign of the times.

#3 e130478

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 10:19 PM

View PostFilthpig, on 03 March 2014 - 10:05 PM, said:

You list all that and shamans are still the easiest healer to kill in the game man lol, it's just a sign of the times.

I don't really know how we compare to other healers at the moment because I haven't played enough yet. But I could see how that might be true. Given that we rely so much on direct healing, the abundance of instant cc / interrupts certainly puts us at a disadvantage.

#4 Doctor M

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 10:40 PM

View Poste130478, on 03 March 2014 - 10:19 PM, said:

I don't really know how we compare to other healers at the moment because I haven't played enough yet. But I could see how that might be true. Given that we rely so much on direct healing, the abundance of instant cc / interrupts certainly puts us at a disadvantage.

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View PostEsiwdeer, on 29 June 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

But look how fucking dumb it was like, a bot could Drain Mana just like a bot could play Hunter ATM.

#5 e130478

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 10:51 PM

View PostDoctor M, on 03 March 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

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I'm not really sure why you're turning this around on me. I already conceded that shamans are one of the worst offenders when it comes to powerful non-casted abilities.

#6 Silhin

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 11:09 PM

maybe in the next expac but right now i need my shit

#7 Doctor M

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 11:21 PM

View Poste130478, on 03 March 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

I'm not really sure why you're turning this around on me. I already conceded that shamans are one of the worst offenders when it comes to powerful non-casted abilities.

Yeah I know, my bad. I do agree that there are way to many defensive abilites in this game, but there's also a reason for that, because of the ammount of cc and damage cooldowns i the game. It's a vicious cycle that started in Cata

Edited by Doctor M, 03 March 2014 - 11:21 PM.

View PostEsiwdeer, on 29 June 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

But look how fucking dumb it was like, a bot could Drain Mana just like a bot could play Hunter ATM.

#8 Cakesz

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:09 AM

View PostDoctor M, on 03 March 2014 - 11:21 PM, said:

Yeah I know, my bad. I do agree that there are way to many defensive abilites in this game, but there's also a reason for that, because of the ammount of cc and damage cooldowns i the game. It's a vicious cycle that started in Cata

It started in WotLK when Blizzard gave every CD in the game to DKs and so they had to give other abilities to other classes to counter that, instead of just removing the retarded shit from DKs.

Edited by Cakesz, 04 March 2014 - 12:09 AM.


#9 Weeknd

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 02:22 AM

View PostCakesz, on 04 March 2014 - 12:09 AM, said:

It started in WotLK when Blizzard gave every CD in the game to DKs and so they had to give other abilities to other classes to counter that, instead of just removing the retarded shit from DKs.

This is actually true. So true. It was a dumb class and it messed things up.

#10 Chefyata

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 04:34 AM

View Poste130478, on 03 March 2014 - 09:40 PM, said:

I think there are too many defensive abilities in the game right now. It feels like a lot of classes have semi-morphed into hybrid archetypes. Even as shaman, I have way too many powerful "instant-out" abilities -- windwalker totem, spirit-link totem, healing tide totem, earthgrab spec, 4-piece pvp immune silence/interrupt etc.  This effect seems to be doubly reinforced by the ridiculous amount of instant CC in the game. Does anyone else feel this way, or am I just another annoying old-timer waxing nostalgic about the "old-school."

I support you ten thousand times man.
It feels much more skillful/pleasant to actually have to manage fewer defensive cds and actually win a game that way.
Spamming defensive cds one after the other is just not fun, at least for me dunno.

#11 Glink

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 06:32 AM

Too many defensives, too many offensives, too many spells.
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#12 ROKMODE

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 06:55 AM

View PostCakesz, on 04 March 2014 - 12:09 AM, said:

It started in WotLK when Blizzard gave every CD in the game to DKs and so they had to give other abilities to other classes to counter that, instead of just removing the retarded shit from DKs.
Debatable
Dks weren't amazing in late wrath seasons, and they didn't have to give other classes more defensives to compensate. See season 8 where dks could die relatively easily while most classes only had 1 defensive cd. . . in fact dks were just average, and many specs did not have defensive cds. In fact, the two specs that people complained about the most (destro/ele) both had no defensive cds whatsoever. I would still say the cancerous # of defensive cds did not begin until cata because wrath very much did not revolve around limitless defensive cds. Defensive cds are absolutely okay but there is a point in which there are too many. Would I have preferred if dks were designed with fewer? Absolutely, but I still don't think the fate of the game's direction was reliant on compensating for the # of cds dks had. I thought dispersion was a good addition to the game and combined two issues into one ability with a twist. Wotlk dks are also pretty easy to kill compared to fucking cata dks since the self heals are negligible in wrath. Cata was when I had to stop playing 2's because there were just too many defensives and self heals. Abilities like recuperate and lock evo made the bracket terrible.

I will say that there was a great influx of new abilities in wrath, but I think that most of them were needed and were quality of life changes. BC laid out the fundamentals while wrath refined the game and made it run a lot smoother. Recall that almost nothing was viable in end game bc arena, so adding new spells was actually rational. Almost all specs were actually flat out missing valuable tools. Let's take ele shaman for example. Ele shaman was very bad in BC because it relied on one school, had no defensives, and had no cc or control. Wrath addressed this by adding root totem, stoneclaw absorb, thunderstorm, hex, replacing ES with wind shear, lava burst, and passive astral shift. They addressed every issue the spec had basically by adding abilities, but none of the abilities were absurd. Almost all of the added cata abilities were completely unnecessary "fun!" spells and disgusting. Then, the game had to be balanced around such spells, which just created a snowball effect. I say almost because there were some added spells that were just like w/e okay have at it hoss. Even some of the abilities that weren't op like spiritwalker's grace were just why? Such unneeded additions.


That being said, I do concede that there were added abilities in wrath as well that they could have not put in like bladestorm, but there's not nearly as many of them as patch 4.x and beyond.

Edited by ROKMODE, 04 March 2014 - 07:02 AM.

Expect bias in posts because
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#13 y0utub3

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 09:42 AM

so even if clickclackmoo's example makes sense i still have to agree with op.
there where some defensive problems with particular specs. so it was fine to add some deff skills to fix that. but there where too many of them.
4 me Arena was allways a rock paper scissors game. some u can kill, some can kill u. but with all the redicilous def skill its a rock rock rock game now.

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#14 Dayzlol

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 11:03 AM

100 usd to remove junkies from Doctor M, were all doomed!

#15 Abidalzim

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 11:54 AM

barkskin while silenced
cloak 100 %
infinite feral mana
infinite enhance mana, not needing to sham rage for mana
infinite mage mana
icebound while stunned
3 sec vanish
infinite warlock pets
totem of i fucked up but who cares
mages seeing others while invis
recuperate healing more than hybrids
dispel for every healer
spells outside traditional schools
etc etc

All of this dumb stuff was added in cata, which was even worse exp than mop in my opinion. I'm actually a little bit excited about WoD if they actually do remove some of the bloat.

Edited by Abidalzim, 04 March 2014 - 11:57 AM.

Zaka pa te če naja morš te ne, te pa če pa te ne čuj, kaj te to te je, ne?

#16 Vengeful95

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:12 PM

View PostAbidalzim, on 04 March 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

barkskin while silenced
cloak 100 %
infinite feral mana
infinite enhance mana, not needing to sham rage for mana
infinite mage mana
icebound while stunned
3 sec vanish
infinite warlock pets
totem of i fucked up but who cares
mages seeing others while invis
recuperate healing more than hybrids
dispel for every healer
spells outside traditional schools
etc etc

All of this dumb stuff was added in cata, which was even worse exp than mop in my opinion. I'm actually a little bit excited about WoD if they actually do remove some of the bloat.

Wat? jk insta heals full hp, I maybe in duels it seems foolish but in arenas it's close to useless without the recup +20% heal glyph. I agree on most of the other arguments though...
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#17 Abidalzim

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:16 PM

View PostVengeful95, on 04 March 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

Wat? jk insta heals full hp, I maybe in duels it seems foolish but in arenas it's close to useless without the recup +20% heal glyph. I agree on most of the other arguments though...
I guess you never played wotlk or cata then.

Anyway, even bigger problem was dumb shit like 30 yards range on fears and hexes - who thought this was a good idea? Ghostcrawler?
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#18 Darksoldierr

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:16 PM

"infinite enhance mana, not needing to sham rage for mana"

*cough*
You definitely didn't played against a caster cleave that instead of trying to kill you, cc locked you

Otherwise i agree with everything
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#19 zzo

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:26 PM

theres to many passive defensive or defensive you can use when stunned and shit, like you shouldn't be able to barkskin in stuns, defeats the point of the stun, d stance shouldn't be a passive 25% less dmg, it's dumb, sit all game to avoid dying ever it's so pointless, defensives should be used before they go ham, you see a mage and a warrior gunning it for you? then you should skin, not once they have ran at you, stunned you and popped ham

Edited by Aces, 04 March 2014 - 12:26 PM.

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#20 Abidalzim

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:34 PM

View PostDarksoldierr, on 04 March 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

"infinite enhance mana, not needing to sham rage for mana"

*cough*
You definitely didn't played against a caster cleave that instead of trying to kill you, cc locked you

Otherwise i agree with everything
The only time I'd ever have mana issues was vs fire mage spellcleaves because I could only purge while they'd do the infite cc Asafa Powel thing. Otherwise water shield was enough in rare cases when I had mana issues.

Have you played wotlk enhance lately? 2 min into the game and you're oom and cant do anything if you don't start using sham rage intelligently.
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