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Finally an Rsham Surv. buff 5.4.7 PTR Notes

#buffed #never die #unlimited #range

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#21 fearco

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 07:42 AM

Healing stream is by far one of the best abilities in the game. It's incredible area of effect combined with rushing streams along with its powerful single target heal itself make it disgustingly powerful.

That being said, with a resto shaman's relatively weak instants (Compared to other healers) outside of NS, and low mobility, a resto shaman can simply be trained until he dies. This is also due to the supreme ease that a melee can kill a totem - outside of a nonglyphed totem, casters normally have to invest something, (FoF, Mind Blast, Fel Flame x3, etc etc.) to kill it, whereas a melee simply white hits it or uses a low cost ability like overpower to oneshot it.

The solution is simple, give totems resilience, severely nerf healing stream totem's output, and either decrease the range of a shaman's heals (so he can't just stand at the pillar and masturbate) or nerf their output too. Their other spells and toolkit are strong, but that is their niche so that is fine. At the end of the day several of their comps break shamans also, namely KFC.

TL:DR nerf healing stream

So technically youre saying that you should take less effort than an icelance to kill a 30 sec cd ?
I mean, it's like autoattacking or fof icelancing down a temporal shield, and complaining that its too strong.. ?
or its just me ?
I think shamans are fairly balanced this season.
Caster's problem isn't healing stream or shocks but warriors who shit on them with: double interrupt double reflect(in case), more stuns than a rogue and more damage than an elemental shaman does.
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#22 Samyh

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 08:06 AM

Buff Shadow Priests
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#23 hekumzx

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 12:12 PM

Buff healing stream, make earthbind have 200k hp and last 2minutes, also make cap stun instant, then shams balanced m8.
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A comprehensive look at resto shaman, from the inside out - http://i.imgur.com/icr36xO.png

VO1yUL2.png

Official Blizzard Quote:

11/18/10
Balance isn't as easy as some seem to think and often balance is in the eye of the beholder.. We believe priests will be in good shape if not great..

#24 jaimee

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 12:22 PM

So technically youre saying that you should take less effort than an icelance to kill a 30 sec cd ?
I mean, it's like autoattacking or fof icelancing down a temporal shield, and complaining that its too strong.. ?
or its just me ?
I think shamans are fairly balanced this season.
Caster's problem isn't healing stream or shocks but warriors who shit on them with: double interrupt double reflect(in case), more stuns than a rogue and more damage than an elemental shaman does.


That is not what I said at all. If you read what I said, my point was that every caster has to invest either time or damage into killing it.
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#25 fearco

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:38 AM

That is not what I said at all. If you read what I said, my point was that every caster has to invest either time or damage into killing it.

I said: So technically youre saying that you should take less effort than an icelance to kill a 30 sec cd ?

I'm not native in english but for me that 2 seems pretty accurately the same.

I'm honestly on the opinion that not every caster should kill the totems with a wand hit, some could just invest more than that into killing totems, thats why shamans are anti casters or what, melee already white hit totems, what if casters can do that too ?
Are shamans really that overpowered that they cannot be beaten without a nerf ?

I mean, probably most shamans play KFC on high ratings already, should we narrow that to nothing ?
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#26 Elorxo

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 12:58 PM

rshamans only happy when unkillable gods
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#27 brbweed

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:46 PM

Somebody pointed out shamans need to be toned down vs casters and buffed vs melee, that is true to some extent but fact is shaman is the most easily killable healer for casters too, same as pala but without 1 i win =bubble to get out of deep-silence+ x

There is no other healer in game that can die on every such swap when out of trinket.

The comps that Rshaman can run all involve classes that can boost your survivability in such situations since,,,,,well.....
u got no buttons to press while stunned or silenced. And this is not to say that rshamans aren´t good though when played with certain classes.

The shocks and groundings are already on far longer cd´s than before and this while basically every class can pull out immense amount of instant cc and good players stomp groundings anyway even if u did play optimally and pre grounding before trap for example.

Against melee there´s 2 things that healer needs, way to take distance, instant heals and dmg mitigation. In all aspects shaman is the worst healer for this type of situation.

A sticky spot that would propably kill me on my shaman without immense peels is pretty much like.....SKIN...CYA as rdruid.

Sometimes i wonder wtf keeps us viable outside KFC.
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#28 Toiletbreath

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 05:53 PM

A sticky spot that would propably kill me on my shaman without immense peels is pretty much like.....SKIN...CYA as rdruid.

.


This, so much this. It's a JOKE going from playing shaman to druid. I felt the same way.
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#29 jaimee

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 05:59 PM

I said: So technically youre saying that you should take less effort than an icelance to kill a 30 sec cd ?

I'm not native in english but for me that 2 seems pretty accurately the same.

I'm honestly on the opinion that not every caster should kill the totems with a wand hit, some could just invest more than that into killing totems, thats why shamans are anti casters or what, melee already white hit totems, what if casters can do that too ?
Are shamans really that overpowered that they cannot be beaten without a nerf ?

I mean, probably most shamans play KFC on high ratings already, should we narrow that to nothing ?


Mages are sort of a exception, but my point stands. If you use an icelance with a FoF to kill a totem, that is often the difference a kill and not a kill in the end.
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#30 fearco

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 07:57 PM

Mages are sort of a exception, but my point stands. If you use an icelance with a FoF to kill a totem, that is often the difference a kill and not a kill in the end.

So it should be always a kill vs a shaman team ? I don't get it.
Totems are cooldowns, a healing stream isn't going to make anyone survive a smokebomb or a full polymorph.
If we make totems easier to kill we might as well give back purge 2 or even go for 3 stacks, dont know if you get what i'm saying.
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#31 jaimee

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:06 PM

It shouldn't be reliant on whether or not the shaman's team does well. If a team is continually killing a warlock pet, he goes sac. Shamans shouldn't have to rely on HS. The fact is, they do. It heals for 40k.
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#32 fearco

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:47 AM

It shouldn't be reliant on whether or not the shaman's team does well. If a team is continually killing a warlock pet, he goes sac. Shamans shouldn't have to rely on HS. The fact is, they do. It heals for 40k.

The problem is that the only thing we can rely on while stunned/silenced is a PRE-casted totem and a PRE-casted earth shield.
I'm okay with that tho, i like how you have to predict what happens, but saying that it isn't fine because someone cannot white-hit it in 1 gcd is just seems strange for me.
I think the need of predicting is a really great mechanic on shaman and should STAY, i don't want abilities which are usable while stunned/silenced, i'm cool with that.
But once someone says "hey, i know you predicted that and you don't have anything else while stunned/silenced, but i want to white hit it with every single class/caster so its not op"... i don't even know what to think at those times.
There might be some changes needed if warrior/mage/rogue is toned down, but they arent, so...
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#33 ottishen

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:14 AM

So it should be always a kill vs a shaman team ? I don't get it.
Totems are cooldowns, a healing stream isn't going to make anyone survive a smokebomb or a full polymorph.
If we make totems easier to kill we might as well give back purge 2 or even go for 3 stacks, dont know if you get what i'm saying.


If I am reading Jamie's initial post correctly, what he is saying is not that Healing Stream should die instantly, but that it is dumb that there is such a huge difference in the stuff you have to do to kill it when comparing meeles to casters.
Meeles will just tab to it, use a low cost instant ability and it's dead, no damage "wasted".
When it comes to casters, they need to invest something more, such as a FoF or Mind Blast, something that they cannot just throw out without affecting the damage you will do on your kill target, thus "wasting" damage on the totem in a way meeles don't do.

The point he makes is actually very true, playing a shadow priest myself from time to time, killing the healing stream can be a bitch, especially if you have a meele or two up your ass.
In this aspect shamans are kind of imbalanced, as certain teams can just destroy one of their main heals while others cannot. This makes them harder to balance, should they be balanced around having Healing Stream up (making them useless against teams that can kill it instantly) or around not having Healing Stream up for more than a short part of its duration (making them really strong against teams that cannot kill it)?
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#34 fearco

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 12:47 PM

If I am reading Jamie's initial post correctly, what he is saying is not that Healing Stream should die instantly, but that it is dumb that there is such a huge difference in the stuff you have to do to kill it when comparing meeles to casters.
Meeles will just tab to it, use a low cost instant ability and it's dead, no damage "wasted".
When it comes to casters, they need to invest something more, such as a FoF or Mind Blast, something that they cannot just throw out without affecting the damage you will do on your kill target, thus "wasting" damage on the totem in a way meeles don't do.

The point he makes is actually very true, playing a shadow priest myself from time to time, killing the healing stream can be a bitch, especially if you have a meele or two up your ass.
In this aspect shamans are kind of imbalanced, as certain teams can just destroy one of their main heals while others cannot. This makes them harder to balance, should they be balanced around having Healing Stream up (making them useless against teams that can kill it instantly) or around not having Healing Stream up for more than a short part of its duration (making them really strong against teams that cannot kill it)?

ok now i got it :)
I totally agree with him in those terms.
But making it weaker isnt sound like a solution for me, the only difference would be that everyone can kill it with 1 instant - not really a solution its like to ban shamans from arenas...
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#35 Korzul

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:20 PM

When it comes to casters, they need to invest something more, such as a FoF or Mind Blast, something that they cannot just throw out without affecting the damage you will do on your kill target, thus "wasting" damage on the totem in a way meeles don't do.


Then think of it as a trade off for being able to destroy totems from 40 yards away. As for "wasted" damage... if you're bursting in a short window (4-6 secs) then it's likely not worth killing the totem as a caster, accept the fact the shaman pre-empted it in the same way druids can ironbark/cenarions or pallies can sac etc, alternatively stop trying to burst when it's up.
If you're maintaining good pressure then are you really complaining about using a FoF charge or MB to negate close to 200k's worth of spread healing?
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#36 ottishen

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 02:50 PM

Then think of it as a trade off for being able to destroy totems from 40 yards away. As for "wasted" damage... if you're bursting in a short window (4-6 secs) then it's likely not worth killing the totem as a caster, accept the fact the shaman pre-empted it in the same way druids can ironbark/cenarions or pallies can sac etc, alternatively stop trying to burst when it's up.
If you're maintaining good pressure then are you really complaining about using a FoF charge or MB to negate close to 200k's worth of spread healing?


I actually didn't think about that point. i suppose it is fair to say that most caster teams rely on smaller windows of opportunity while teams such as kitty/tsg is relying more on constant dmg to grind the opponents down. It makes sense that you just have to live with it if you are dependant on short windows of opportunity. However, what about caster teams that does not rely on these short windows? Or does these teams not exist in the current state of the game?

And when it comes to the 40 yd range vs instant kill, while I totally agree that it is a kind of trade off, is it really a "fair" trade off? I am thinking that meeles are most of the time going on the shaman, meaning that they will be close to the totem anyways which kind of counters the drawback of being meele :). Not to mention the mobility of certain meeles allows them to get to the totem, destroy it and then instantly connect to their target.
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#37 zenga

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:05 PM

I actually didn't think about that point. i suppose it is fair to say that most caster teams rely on smaller windows of opportunity while teams such as kitty/tsg is relying more on constant dmg to grind the opponents down. It makes sense that you just have to live with it if you are dependant on short windows of opportunity. However, what about caster teams that does not rely on these short windows? Or does these teams not exist in the current state of the game?

And when it comes to the 40 yd range vs instant kill, while I totally agree that it is a kind of trade off, is it really a "fair" trade off? I am thinking that meeles are most of the time going on the shaman, meaning that they will be close to the totem anyways which kind of counters the drawback of being meele :). Not to mention the mobility of certain meeles allows them to get to the totem, destroy it and then instantly connect to their target.


That's one of the beginning principles of arena in WoW: if your comp is heavily based around fears you will have a hard time landing them vs a comp like warrior/priest/shaman or dk. If you have no curse dispel in the team and you play vs lock/shaman then hex becomes very powerful, whereas if you play vs mage/druid/shaman everyone can decurse. i.e. It's tmho not because melee have an easier time to kill a totem that casters necessarily should work the same. Not to mention that there are dot classes and hard casting specs. I mean you can go on and on about it, and in the end everyone will get exactly the same spells/tools.

And it's not like the shaman can't protect his totems if he wanted to. Relocation and totem health glyph are options, which shifts the advantage more to the ranged classes. They might be less effective/desirable than other glyphs/talents, but from a design point of view I like it that there are options: give up x to get y. Werther they are balanced enough is a whole other discussion.
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#38 jaimee

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 05:26 PM

Ottillia got it spot on, much better than i could explain it it seems :P
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if you play a disc priest you are not a real human being 






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