Jump to content

Photo

Games like Arena but not shit?


  • Please log in to reply
60 replies to this topic

#41 Konjunktur

Konjunktur

Posted 15 September 2017 - 02:13 PM

Hey, since you mentioned me I felt obligated to respond! Well written post by the way, even if I disagree with a lot of it. I'll post about the things I felt I had something decent to reply with.

 

While there is a discussion about targeting, I think the aim factor MAY (please notice I said MAY with caps) allow a player to bring more "skill" to the table. Let us just consider the most "skill based" game in competitive gaming. Of course some will say Starcraft, some will say Dota etc. but for me, it is undoubtedly CS. The reason for CS being so skillcapped is not a complex issue. First, the aim factor (under the aim factor, you have branches such as spray control, tapping, range, positioning, reflex, etc) allows players with better aims to excel against others (excluding teamplay here) and second, the mindgames in CS allows players to combat mentally as well (teamplay, fake strats, fake sounds, fake flash, split tactics, fake sprays, fake reloads, smoke rushing etc.)

 

As you can see, while the aim itself of course brings a higher skillcap, it is these mindgames what makes a game so entertaining. You see these top level mindgames in Dota, LoL, Starcraft, CS:GO, apart from the actual hard-earned skill itself (aim in cs is hard earned, just like the micromanagement and teamplay in Dota, LoL, [no teamplay in SC but it is the king of micromanagement]).

 

Then on the other hand, you have the WoW arena. I am not going to bash it here, but it is certain that there is a group of players (including myself) who like the concept of 3v3 PvP in an arena setting. While many games tried to take it to a next-generation level, many failed, and this should be a lesson to be learned by potential developers and potential next-generation systems.

 

Yes, aiming brings a new set of skills required to perform - there's no denying that.

 

Yes, in CS aiming is king - but CS doesn't have a boat load of skills, same goes for MOBAs and Overwatch.

 

I am fully convinced that you can't make a game with the depth of WoW Arena PvP (Overwatch nor CS has the depth WoW has - they have the same/higher skill cap perhaps, but not the same depth).

 

You mentioned Wildstar, and imo that game was far to spammy, non-focused on CC-chains and suffered from the usual lag problems related to aiming. And I firmly believe all that stems from using far too many AoE spells (either in the form of cones or just aimed like old Blizzard from WoW). 

 

AoE damage de-incentivizes CC (and adding a "does not attack CC'd people" is just weird tbh) and we all know the rage involved with hitting laggy people with aimed abilities.

 

Imo, you can't make a spiritual successor to WoW PvP without implementing the most core feature, namely lock-on targeting.

 

Frankly, I think the creator of "The Arena" game is doing a good job. Of course, there is room for improvement, and it is probably why he/she is posting here, to get feedback.

Sure, of course he is doing a good job so far. But I think s/he

 

A) won't finish the project.

:duckers: doesn't have the resources to market the project.

C) isn't the right person to be the to be the front face of the project (Russian made PvP games always flop in the EU/US + s/he responded far too agressively to my first post -  doesn't bode well).

D) will get shut down due to copyright infringement. The author even posted a video where he describes how the abilities in his game function just like famous abilities from WoW - gl winning a court case after that one. Doing something like that shows the person isn't ready to lead a project like this.

 

 

Therefore, "The Arena" could distinguish between skills which require actual aim, vs skills which require tab-targeting. Both is skill, but one is aim, the other one is micromanagement. Since you are in between, why not introduce both, to create a higher skill ceiling while actually improving game fluidity ? Your unique hybrid mechanism could bring a next-gen level itself, if it is good enough.

 

WoW already has this, and so did Wildstar (to some extent) they both had some abilities that were targeted and some that were aimed. Wildstar obviously had far more that were aimed than WoW - but they're both on the spectrum.

 

Wildstar failed heavily (especially in the PvP department) and aimed spells is one of the most disliked mechanics in WoW (admittedly partly because of WoW's poor netcode).

 

Actually, these two things combined (1) Aiming and (2) # of abilities is the number one reason BLC/Bloodrite is not a spiritual successor to WoW PvP.

 

It has been tried before and it has failed.

 

Someone should try making a real copy of WoW Arena. Without all the fluff-fluff to make it more MOBA-like. That has never been tried before.

 

In WoW, you have fake casting, positioning, movement (grip/blink) etc. Try to find ways to bring more interesting / better mindgames with your game. I read that Ridtur mentioned body blocking. In this game, the first time I was watching it, I thought to myself : "If there is actual body blocking this could be good." Imagine what could body blocking potentially bring to your game. The level of teamplay would drastically improve, the actual positioning would matter. Your "mutant" class could accomplish more than just chasing someone to death (I know it as fear/CC etc but imagine if the mutant could actually take the hits via positioning, and if there are skill based purely around this concept). Certain classes could have certain spells such that body-blocking would actually benefit them offensively etc.

 

Honestly, all I see happening is it being a complete clusterfuck due to casters standing in front of their healers blocking CC forever and melee's always standing in front of casters so they're unable to cast anything on anyone but said melee.

 

Oh and the obvious "OOHH I FUCKING HIT HIM, THIS LAG!!!" rage.

 

Your game looks a bit grim, it reminds me more of a Mortal Combat/Prototype mash-up. If this is the message you'd like to convey, then bring more reflex-related, reaction based skills, and make it look more violent, more aggressive.

 

However, speaking from my own experience, colours are good. Colourful games are more stimulant compared to grim looking games (there are several papers on this issue). So, if you could introduce a bit more colour/maybe also in a cartoony fashion, your game will do better against aging.

 

In summary, there is potential in this game. I hope you will make it more user friendly while creating more depth in the actual skill-level itself. I have some ideas, and this post is waaaaaay too long anyway, but I wish you good luck with your project.

 

This I do fully agree with.

 

I understand that the assets currently used are mostly placeholders but it looks really really aged atm, and whenever you go for a more grim and realistic art style aging becomes an issue really fast.

 

Just look at WoW Arena, it's a 7 years (or so) old game mode and it still doesn't look too aged - mostly due to the art style. Obviously spells and stuff have gotten updated but you can go look at TBC Private Server Arena movies and honestly - it doesn't look that aged (don't look at retail footage from the time, people played so bad back then that it simply feels/looks aged due to that - at least to me it does).


Edited by Konjunktur, 17 September 2017 - 01:30 AM.

  • 1

#42 drcrck

drcrck
  • Members
  • Posts: 14

Posted 15 September 2017 - 02:23 PM

this post is waaaaaay too long.

Longer than all other posts in this thread combined :D
Thanks for your feedback

For example, if you get blinded, the whole screen should go dark, but you should still be able to move and attack (with a reduced hit rate of course).

Like flashbang from CS
Good idea
  • 1

#43 Warmonger_Skulm

Warmonger_Skulm
  • Junkies
  • Orcclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 89
  • Talents: Frost 1/0/2/1/2/2/2
  • 2v2: 1205
  • 3v3: 2313
  • RBG: 576

Posted 15 September 2017 - 10:48 PM

Hey, since you mentioned me I felt obligated to respond! Well written post by the way, even if I disagree with a lot of it. I'll post about the things I felt I had something decent to reply with.

 

You have well written posts yourself, and thank you for taking your time to share your opinion. Here are my replies in order to better clarify my answers&thought process, since English is not my native language, I felt like better explaining certain points here.

 

I just wanted to draw an example from WildStar. As I said in my previous post, in no way I am a defender of the telegraph system. I just suggested that the dev should find a way to introduce a "unique" mechanism. I think tab targeting in its current state is not user friendly, one of the main reasons making WoW Arena not easy to watch from a "casual/laymen" perspective is tab targeting, since spells&animations work 90% of the time with tab targeting. It creates too much fuss and it is getting a bit old now. Besides, a tab-targeted game system has to have macro support. I mean almost all high-end wow arena players have arena1-2-3 macros, because it allows for a better control and eliminates the delay to target + then cast. That solution itself is an escape from tab-targeting. However, pure 3rd person aim could also be problematic. Therefore that was the reason I suggested that there needs to be something unique, which promotes skill while being user-friendly. Also, it could make plays easier to watch/understand. Essentially, I merely suggested implementing a unique mechanism which would be better than tab-targeting and wanted to show a basic example.

 

Please don't get me wrong, I am not against tab-targeting. I am just suggesting that if tab-targeting is going to be implemented 100%, it needs to be better, simpler, and more user/spectator friendly. There needs to be that new "unique" touch which creates that desire to play the game.

 

 

You mentioned Wildstar, and imo that game was far to spammy, non-focused on CC-chains and suffered from the usual lag problems related to aiming. And I firmly believe all that stems from using far too many AoE spells (either in the form of cones or just aimed like old Blizzard from WoW). 

 

AoE damage de-incentivizes CC (and adding a "does not attack CC'd people" is just weird tbh) and we all know the rage involved with hitting laggy people with aimed abilities.

 

Oh and the obvious "OOHH I FUCKING HIT HIM, THIS LAG!!!" rage.

On this part, I think lag is lag. The fact that you have tab-targeting or aim doesn't make a difference. Well, of course lag could be more crucial in an aim based environment, and I understand that, but it also hurts in WoW arena as well, especially laggy targets run around pillars, fake position themselves, so I don't think that is a huge issue to be discussed here, since lag is lag :)

 

 

Sure, of course he is doing a good job so far. But I think s/he

 

A) won't finish the project.

:duckers: doesn't have the resources to market the project.

C) isn't the right person to be the to be the front face of the project (Russian made PvP games always flop in the EU/US + s/he responded far too agressively to my first post -  doesn't bode well).

D) will get shut down due to copyright infringement. The author even posted a video where he describes how the abilities in his game function just like famous abilities from WoW - gl winning a court case after that one. Doing something like that shows the person isn't ready to lead a project like this.

 

 

I cannot say for sure if the project can finish or be successful, but kickstarters are there for a reason. If the project attracts a crowd, then you may be looking at a big success, now I am not saying this could be true, but it is a possibility.

 

With regards to the copyright infringement, as long as there is no official marketing / statement about the game taking stuff away from WoW, there shouldn't be a problem. You can call your skills as "Shadowstep", "Wraith Walk" etc because they are neither a Blizzard brand, nor a copyrighted material. If he uses Arthas as a class though, that is a different story :) The copyright infringement comes into play when a copyrighted material is used w/o permission. At this point, the dev is free to compare his game to WoW, as long as there is no defamation of course.

 

I don't know about the game market strategy and how being Russian affects it. That is not my area of expertise therefore I cannot say anything about that.

 

 

 

Someone should try making a real copy of WoW Arena. Without all the fluff-fluff to make it more MOBA-like. That has never been tried before.

 

Honestly, all I see happening is it being a complete clusterfuck due to casters standing in front of their healers blocking CC forever and melee's always standing in front of casters so they're unable to cast anything on anyone but said melee.

 

 

Perhaps you are right. In my previous post, I explained how there should be spells+effects relying on "body-blocking". This could be one of the core features of the game, if implemented and supported correctly. Certain classes could have advantages if their targets are body blocked. Just one example, you are a caster, you have a tab-targeted ability and it is body-blocked. Since your ability did not hit your tab-targeted you might get a damage increase. At this point, you are right and assuming such a scenario, because we do not see any evidence that there are spells+abilities synergizing with/against body blocking.

 

Another alternative (please do not rage when you read this-I know this could sound REALLY crazy, but it is just an idea) could be implementing a tab-target system, such that, your projectiles can actually be guided with your mouse/aim so that you could curve them around the body-blocker, just like a curved ball soccer free kick. Imagine a chaos bolt curving left and right to pass through the body-blocker to hit the initial target. While you keep the main system as tab-targeting, the aim comes into play, when you actually guide your projectile to a certain extent (to a certain extent means your tab-targeted ability will most likely hit the target, but you can choose left/right up down etc to give it a curve). This of course is just an idea.

 

I am not going to go over the parts where we agreed. Thank you again for sharing your thoughts, and I hope I better explained myself.


  • 1

#44 Warmonger_Skulm

Warmonger_Skulm
  • Junkies
  • Orcclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 89
  • Talents: Frost 1/0/2/1/2/2/2
  • 2v2: 1205
  • 3v3: 2313
  • RBG: 576

Posted 15 September 2017 - 10:53 PM

Longer than all other posts in this thread combined :D
Thanks for your feedback

Like flashbang from CS
Good idea

 

I hope it helps, good luck !


  • 0

#45 drcrck

drcrck
  • Members
  • Posts: 14

Posted 16 September 2017 - 03:19 AM

C) isn't the right person to be the to be the front face of the project (Russian made PvP games always flop in the EU/US + s/he responded far too agressively to my first post - doesn't bode well).

I don't know about the game market strategy and how being Russian affects it.

Being Russian affects all aspects of game development :D But this is not a reason to give up, abandon the project and go cheeki breeki

 

D) will get shut down due to copyright infringement. The author even posted a video where he describes how the abilities in his game function just like famous abilities from WoW - gl winning a court case after that one. Doing something like that shows the person isn't ready to lead a project like this.

I don't think spell names or mechanics are objects to copyright
There are many games like WoW (Allods Online for example), but I've never seen Blizzard sued them
They sued private servers, bot developers, but not games which look like WoW
Correct me if I'm wrong
 

WoW Arena not easy to watch from a "casual/laymen" perspective is tab targeting, since spells&animations work 90% of the time with tab targeting. It creates too much fuss and it is getting a bit old now.

I think tab targeting is the main reason (main, but not the only) why WoW arena is so unpopular (comparing to top PvP games like Dota)
To watch 2200+ games, you should play at 2200+ or you won't understand what happening when someone casts CC using arena123 macro
 

and adding a "does not attack CC'd people" is just weird tbh

I think this feature should apply only for auto-spreading dots and other effects which you cannot control
Melee cleaves, projectile spells and spells targeted on ground are completely controlled by you and if you hit CC'd target — this is your fault
 

# of abilities is the number one reason BLC/Bloodrite is not a spiritual successor to WoW PvP.

This is what I agree with
Any game with 5-6 active abilities feels more like Diablo/Smite (depending on camera style) and cannot be compared to WoW

I think 20 is a good number
Unlike Blizzard, I'm designing abilities for PvP only and trying to make it all useful
Also I don't like passive talents which just increase your damage and don't affect your gameplay in any way
There will be no talents like "Increases your haste by 6%"
 

On this part, I think lag is lag.

This is right
If someone has 150+ latency, he sucks in pvp
May be in WoW he sucks a little less than in shooters like CSGO, but he does
Tab-targeting cannot make a lagging player competitive with players who don't lag
 

casters standing in front of their healers blocking CC forever

Most of CC is a melee cleave or is casted on ground, so it cannot be blocked
The only 2 exceptions (for now) are archer's silencing shot and wyvern sting
 

melee's always standing in front of casters so they're unable to cast anything on anyone but said melee.

It's more a feature than a problem :)

BTW beta sign up form contains question "Do you like non-targeting combat system?"
Click here to leave your feedback: https://goo.gl/forms/IYSAQtiRXQVY2B192
 

low amount of abilities/champion

Yes, of course 6 champions is way too low, my target is 10-12
There are a Mutant (feral+warrior), Wizard (fire mage), Archer (mm+surv hunter), Bandit (rogue without stealth), Paladin (hpala+hpriest) and Warlock (something like affliction warlock combined with resto druid)

If you have ideas for new champions, suggest it here


  • 0

#46 Warmonger_Skulm

Warmonger_Skulm
  • Junkies
  • Orcclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 89
  • Talents: Frost 1/0/2/1/2/2/2
  • 2v2: 1205
  • 3v3: 2313
  • RBG: 576

Posted 16 September 2017 - 11:36 AM

If you have ideas for new champions, suggest it here

 

Give DK, you may even call it "Death Knight" but that would be somewhat unoriginal. Feel free to call it whatever you want but imo you could introduce an undead/shadowy life leeching melee archetype. DK is life for me after all :)

 

On the other hand, I think it would be good if you always seek balance b/w melee and ranged. You currently have 2 of 3 different roles, which is good. If you add a DK or an "Undead Lord"/"Necro Lord" (I couldn't resist :) ) then you might want to add 1 ranged and 1 healer as well, to keep the overall number balanced.

 

For ranged, you could go with a more tanky/ pressure oriented class, such as a hybrid frost mage/shadowpriest.

 

As for healer, you could introduce a body blocking in your face melee archetype healer, imagine a paladin with melee wings combined with an enhancement shaman. For this to succeed though, you really have to listen to Ridtur's concern about melees overwhelming the casts and blocking everything. Maybe introduce more roots / knockbacks than gap closers and it should be fine.

 

Edit/PS: Your current classes dominantly show that the game's concept is more FRP/medieval themed. The only class going against that theme is Mutant. The perception of mutant is somewhat radiation/virus related, which is way off compared to a medieval setting. Maybe change the class name to Demonist / Brute / Hellspawn


Edited by Warmonger_Skulm, 16 September 2017 - 11:39 AM.

  • 0

#47 drcrck

drcrck
  • Members
  • Posts: 14

Posted 16 September 2017 - 01:26 PM

Edit/PS: Your current classes dominantly show that the game's concept is more FRP/medieval themed. The only class going against that theme is Mutant. The perception of mutant is somewhat radiation/virus related, which is way off compared to a medieval setting. Maybe change the class name to Demonist / Brute / Hellspawn

2 months ago, right after clicking "New project" in Unity, I downloaded a free model called "Mutant" from Mixamo.com and used it as the first playable champion in game
Now he looks strange in his blue jeans in this medieval setting, I agree :)
I'll fix it later
  • 0

#48 Konjunktur

Konjunktur

Posted 17 September 2017 - 01:34 PM


You have well written posts yourself, and thank you for taking your time to share your opinion. Here are my replies in order to better clarify my answers&thought process, since English is not my native language, I felt like better explaining certain points here.

 

 

I just wanted to draw an example from WildStar. As I said in my previous post, in no way I am a defender of the telegraph system. I just suggested that the dev should find a way to introduce a "unique" mechanism. I think tab targeting in its current state is not user friendly, one of the main reasons making WoW Arena not easy to watch from a "casual/laymen" perspective is tab targeting, since spells&animations work 90% of the time with tab targeting. It creates too much fuss and it is getting a bit old now. Besides, a tab-targeted game system has to have macro support. I mean almost all high-end wow arena players have arena1-2-3 macros, because it allows for a better control and eliminates the delay to target + then cast. That solution itself is an escape from tab-targeting. However, pure 3rd person aim could also be problematic. Therefore that was the reason I suggested that there needs to be something unique, which promotes skill while being user-friendly. Also, it could make plays easier to watch/understand. Essentially, I merely suggested implementing a unique mechanism which would be better than tab-targeting and wanted to show a basic example.

 

Please don't get me wrong, I am not against tab-targeting. I am just suggesting that if tab-targeting is going to be implemented 100%, it needs to be better, simpler, and more user/spectator friendly. There needs to be that new "unique" touch which creates that desire to play the game.

Well, to be fair - if you want the game to be spectator friendly you can't have a multitude of buffs and 20+ abilities per champion. At least I don't view the main issue with WoW PvP as a spectator sport being the targetting but rather the massive amount of knowledge you need to have about how all the game mechanics interact with one another. The problem then becomes: Either you dumb the game down to a point where it's easy to follow for a spectator, but at the same time it's boring to play as a player because it's too simplified, or you have a complex game that's hard to follow for a spectator who's not an expert but fun to play as a player.  Personally I think if your playerbase doesn't enjoy the game that's far more important than being a spectator-friendly game. It's kind of the WotLK/MoP vs Legion comparison all over.

 

And I don't think you need to allow for macros, all you need to do is make a really good keybinding GUI that allows you to bind each champion independently of one another (so on champion A you could have X bound to something arbitrarily and on champion B you'd have X bound to something completely different and depending on which champion you're playing your keybinds would change) and also allow you to bind arena123 of each ability separately if you so wish.

 


On this part, I think lag is lag. The fact that you have tab-targeting or aim doesn't make a difference. Well, of course lag could be more crucial in an aim based environment, and I understand that, but it also hurts in WoW arena as well, especially laggy targets run around pillars, fake position themselves, so I don't think that is a huge issue to be discussed here, since lag is lag  :)

Well, I don't know if you've ever played a class in WoW that uses AoE-circle CC (the only class really affected is Hunter, post-MoP ofc) and the rage involved in "hitting" the CC but it not activating due to lag - when you clearly hit them on your screen. It's far more frustrating and annoying than someone LoS'ing your tab-targetted CC's because of lag (it's far more predictable). Honestly that second kind of lag is to be expected in all kinds of games - but the first type is far worse and building the entire game around that mechanic is imo going to cause massive issues. 

 


I cannot say for sure if the project can finish or be successful, but kickstarters are there for a reason. If the project attracts a crowd, then you may be looking at a big success, now I am not saying this could be true, but it is a possibility.

 

With regards to the copyright infringement, as long as there is no official marketing / statement about the game taking stuff away from WoW, there shouldn't be a problem. You can call your skills as "Shadowstep", "Wraith Walk" etc because they are neither a Blizzard brand, nor a copyrighted material. If he uses Arthas as a class though, that is a different story  :) The copyright infringement comes into play when a copyrighted material is used w/o permission. At this point, the dev is free to compare his game to WoW, as long as there is no defamation of course.

 

I don't know about the game market strategy and how being Russian affects it. That is not my area of expertise therefore I cannot say anything about that.

Well, Blizzard tried to sue Dota 2 in the past and the only reason they failed was that A ) Valve was putting all its money into winning the suit and B ) Dota is a game mode that wasn't invented by Blizzard, but rather IceFrog and Valve had IceFrog on their side in the dispute.

 

If Blizzard were to go after this game whose owner eluded to how his mechanics are similar to if not the exact same as WoW's and even has the working name "The Arena" (named after a game mode in WoW) I don't see how any judge/jury is going to find it not to be copyright infringement. Especially if he 'steals' mechanics / abilities and just renames them. This guy doesn't have all the monetary muscles of Valve to protect himself and is thus going to lose a suit or get so slowed down due to it that he'll just accept defeat I'm afraid.

 

But hey, I might be wrong and since I really like some class designs from previous expansions of WoW and would really like to see them implemented in to the game I hope I am (because otherwise we can't re-use much from WoW at all).

 

And the Russian part, well it all comes down to the fact that Russian developers often don't know proper English, don't market well in the EU/US and don't take their feedback mainly from EU/US. 

Imagine if Blizzard stopped listening to EU/US forum feedback and instead just payed attention to the RU forums (not that they exist anymore, but as an example). And yes, I do understand this is hypocritical because the Russians feel the same way today - but the problem is EU/US has far more $$$ and has a larger playerbase and is thus the more valuable playerbase. Another thing it it comes down to is EU/US players not trusting Russians (and thus not Russian devs), and given their ingame antics of refusing to speak English and cheating at every turn I guess that's understandable. 

 


Perhaps you are right. In my previous post, I explained how there should be spells+effects relying on "body-blocking". This could be one of the core features of the game, if implemented and supported correctly. Certain classes could have advantages if their targets are body blocked. Just one example, you are a caster, you have a tab-targeted ability and it is body-blocked. Since your ability did not hit your tab-targeted you might get a damage increase. At this point, you are right and assuming such a scenario, because we do not see any evidence that there are spells+abilities synergizing with/against body blocking.

Mmhh, I just straight up disagree haha. I just think it's going to be a clusterfuck where I can't attack who I want because the Warrior is bashing my head in - which I think is going to be the far most common "use" of body blocking on casters. The second one being casters just standing in front of their healer eating "aimed" CC (not AoE), although according to the author most CC is AoE based.

 


Another alternative (please do not rage when you read this-I know this could sound REALLY crazy, but it is just an idea) could be implementing a tab-target system, such that, your projectiles can actually be guided with your mouse/aim so that you could curve them around the body-blocker, just like a curved ball soccer free kick. Imagine a chaos bolt curving left and right to pass through the body-blocker to hit the initial target. While you keep the main system as tab-targeting, the aim comes into play, when you actually guide your projectile to a certain extent (to a certain extent means your tab-targeted ability will most likely hit the target, but you can choose left/right up down etc to give it a curve). This of course is just an idea.

It's a cool idea, but it will probably get very tedious as a player and very annoying to have to handle (carpal syndrome hehe). Additionally this is going to be very, very prone to lag and as such I think this, while a cool idea, is a bad way to go.

 

Another thing I just recognized - the movement system and the AoE-placement systems don't really mesh well (completely disregarding your tweak). Afaik most people hold their right mouse button for movement in WoW - which makes it impossible to also aim AoE spell circles at the same time, imo this is already annoying in WoW when I play Hunter (especially without pre-WoD Scatter Shot to set up traps). Imagine the annoyance when all CC spells are like that.


Edited by Konjunktur, 17 September 2017 - 01:57 PM.

  • 0

#49 Konjunktur

Konjunktur

Posted 17 September 2017 - 01:37 PM

This is what I agree with

Any game with 5-6 active abilities feels more like Diablo/Smite (depending on camera style) and cannot be compared to WoW

I think 20 is a good number

Unlike Blizzard, I'm designing abilities for PvP only and trying to make it all useful

Also I don't like passive talents which just increase your damage and don't affect your gameplay in any way

There will be no talents like "Increases your haste by 6%"

Obviously the talent choices should be meaningful, so that's a good direction.

 

 

But 20 abilities is even less than Legion, basically 20 abilities is going to be even more boring than Legion, imo - Legion 2.0 basically.

 

This is right

If someone has 150+ latency, he sucks in pvp

May be in WoW he sucks a little less than in shooters like CSGO, but he does

Tab-targeting cannot make a lagging player competitive with players who don't lag

In a game like yours lagging can actually be an advantage. If you're able to lag in such a manner your opponents miss most if not all of their CC on you then you're at a great advantage. Obviously comes down to netcode as well but lagging in a game where some specific abilities have extra value and being able to dodge those certain abilities due to lag makes lag both a way to potentially win more - but it will also function as a rage inducer.

 

Most of CC is a melee cleave or is casted on ground, so it cannot be blocked

The only 2 exceptions (for now) are archer's silencing shot and wyvern sting

So most CC is multi-target CC? That sounds awfully OP.

 

I think this feature should apply only for auto-spreading dots and other effects which you cannot control

Melee cleaves, projectile spells and spells targeted on ground are completely controlled by you and if you hit CC'd target — this is your fault

So against a melee you just bunch up on your healer and they can't do damage or they'll break their own CC? And against casters you just hide behind your healer so they can't attack without risking to hit the healer? This is a major issue with WoW class design in Legion (AoE damage on everything -> breaking CC) and you're trying to copy it. It's de-incentivizing CC in favour of mongo-damage comps. 

 

Yes, of course 6 champions is way too low, my target is 10-12

There are a Mutant (feral+warrior), Wizard (fire mage), Archer (mm+surv hunter), Bandit (rogue without stealth), Paladin (hpala+hpriest) and Warlock (something like affliction warlock combined with resto druid)

You missunderstood me, I ment that the amount of abilities per champion was too low (abilities/champion) - not the number of abilities or champions. I.e I still think 20 abilities per champion is far too low.

 

But well, I think you should remove the Warrior aspects from the "Mutant" champion and just make it function similarly to say Cata/MoP/WoD Feral (but not WoD spread DoT pressure), so something like: CC heavy (Cyclone, Hibernate & Roots), bleed based (bleed priority dps rotation), low burst but great single target sustained (no really strong burst cds, nothing like Incarnation), highly mobile (something similar to Emancipate from Ret Paladins back in the day & some speed abilities & high base speed). This would obviously require lock-on targetting as single target DPS is not a thing otherwise.

 

I think you should also make a Berserk champion that would function like a mix of WotLK S8 and S15 MoP Warrior. I think that would be very appreciated by a lot of players, and those seasons/expansions are by far the most skillful iterations of that class. It's also a gateway class (slightly easier to get in to) while still being very hard to master.

 

I also think the Wizard should be more of a Frost Mage, relying on burst setups to win games. Overall I think more people would enjoy a Frost Mage champion than a Fire Mage one.

 

Additionally I don't think you should make some classes heal and & do damage (ie your warlock design). I think the MoP toolkit for Affliction was great and it ought to be straight up copied into the game, maybe you could throw some S8 Affliction in there too, but MoP was great imo.

 

Furthermore I think something like Disc Priest would be a great addition to the game and I firmly believe Bandits should absolutely have Stealth (but not Mutants, ie Ferals). Bandits and Mutants could really use a secondary resource similar to combo points as well to limit their usefulness and add some skillcap.

 

A list of 12 Champions could be:

Mutant - Feral 2.0. High CC, medium utility, high mobility, high(est) sustain - single target, low(est) burst, medium/low defensives, medium/low healing (on the low side)

Berserk - Warrior 2.0. High sustain - single target, high burst, medium/low CC, medium utility, medium defensives (mostly Shield Wall and stance dancing), low healing

Shadowstalker (renamed Bandit) - Rogue 2.0. High/medium CC & utility, medium/low mobility, high burst, medium/low sustain - single target, medium defensives, low healing

Chameleon - UH DK 2.0. Low CC, high/medium utility, low mobility, high(est) sustain - AoE DoT, high defensives, high healing  

Wizard - Frost Mage 2.0. High CC & utility, high mobility, high burst, low sustain - single target, medium defensives, low healing

Archer - Hunter 2.0. High CC & utility, high mobility, medium burst, medium sustain - single target, medium defensives, low healing 

Plaguespreader - Affliction 2.0. High CC & utility, medium/low mobility, low(est) burst, high(est) sustain - DoT spread, high defensives, medium/low healing

Tinkerer - SP 2.0 (focused around mechanical abilities - sort of like an engineer). Medium CC & high utility, medium/low mobility, high burst, medium sustain - AoE DoT/single target damage, medium defensives, high/medium healing.

Chaoslord - Destruction 2.0. Medium/High CC, low mobility, high burst, medium sustain, high defensives, low healing.

Prophet - Discipline 2.0. Medium/low CC, high utility, medium/low mobility, high burst (healing), low sustain healing, high damage

Totemist - Resto Shaman 2.0. Low CC, medium/low utility, medium/low mobility, high burst (healing), high sustain (healing), low damage

Naturist - Resto Druid 2.0. High CC, high/medium utility, high mobility, low burst (healing), high/medium sustain (healing), low damage

I could go more in-depth about how I envision some of those champions but they do require lock-on targetting and a shift from AoE CC being the norm to locked-on-targetted CC being the norm. Additionally they would have more than 20 abilities ;)


Edited by Konjunktur, 17 September 2017 - 07:12 PM.

  • 0

#50 Konjunktur

Konjunktur

Posted 17 September 2017 - 01:43 PM

2 months ago, right after clicking "New project" in Unity, I downloaded a free model called "Mutant" from Mixamo.com and used it as the first playable champion in game
Now he looks strange in his blue jeans in this medieval setting, I agree :)
I'll fix it later

Is the theme going to be medival? I strongly urge you to reconsider and use a more cartoony theme and vibe (for reasons previously mentioned regarding aging).


  • 0

#51 Warmonger_Skulm

Warmonger_Skulm
  • Junkies
  • Orcclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 89
  • Talents: Frost 1/0/2/1/2/2/2
  • 2v2: 1205
  • 3v3: 2313
  • RBG: 576

Posted 17 September 2017 - 09:53 PM

...

 

Well, Blizzard tried to sue Dota 2 in the past and the only reason they failed was that A ) Valve was putting all its money into winning the suit and B ) Dota is a game mode that wasn't invented by Blizzard, but rather IceFrog and Valve had IceFrog on their side in the dispute.

 

If Blizzard were to go after this game whose owner eluded to how his mechanics are similar to if not the exact same as WoW's and even has the working name "The Arena" (named after a game mode in WoW) I don't see how any judge/jury is going to find it not to be copyright infringement. Especially if he 'steals' mechanics / abilities and just renames them. This guy doesn't have all the monetary muscles of Valve to protect himself and is thus going to lose a suit or get so slowed down due to it that he'll just accept defeat I'm afraid.

 

But hey, I might be wrong and since I really like some class designs from previous expansions of WoW and would really like to see them implemented in to the game I hope I am (because otherwise we can't re-use much from WoW at all).

 

...

 

I just wanted to write about the legal issue since I don't think there is this "one right and one wrong approach" in our discussion. The points you raise are crucial, even though we agree to disagree on most of them.

 

The legal dispute related to Dota2 mainly revolved around the "DOTA" brand name since Valve wanted to trademark it. In addition the in-game use of characters such as the "Skeleton King" and others were copyrighted by Blizzard. I read the court files as well as the settlement agreement (publicly available version through SEC filings+court filings). First of all, the lawsuit ended with a "Settlement Agreement". Sure, you might want to say one side may have won since they had a higher leverage than the other, but technically, there is neither a winner, nor a loser. Both parties got to reach an agreement on acceptable terms. While Valve could keep the brand "DOTA"-"DOTA2", characters such as the Skeleton King were removed from the game (replaced by Wraith King afaik), so Blizzard also got what they wanted.

 

The legal issue you raised here would not have valid grounds, since this game in development uses none of the copyrighted materials by Blizzard. Besides, just compare it to the DOTA case, on one hand there is literally copyrighted brands, trademarks and on the other you have some spells which have similar names and work in a completely different game engine/artwork.  "The Arena" is a game mode, but not a copyrighted material, it is not a brand. Many games have arena modes. Regarding game mechanics, as long as this "Arena" game didn't steal the game engine (a property of Blizzard), then there is nothing wrong about the mechanics either. As long as a statement is within the scope of fair competition, any person in the US can advertise/compare their products against others (look at advertisements, they usually say theirs is best compared to others for example). Of course, there shouldn't be any defamation. In this case, the dev is not claiming his abilities/spells work exactly like WoW, he is not MISLEADING anyone into thinking his game is WoW-or a WoW copyrighted content. Now I can tell you one thing, and that is the jurisdiction. Valve is based in US so is Blizzard. Since these two companies have their HQ's in the US, the lawsuit was within the jurisdiction of the US courts. However, a Russian company/individual is not within US jurisdiction by default. Therefore, the case would not go to a US court anyway, unless of course this Russian company would have a subsidiary in the US, or it would operate through a distributing company located in the US. Even if that would be the case, the lawsuit would be against the subsidiary / distributing company, and there is literally no copyright infringement at this point anyway. Besides, good luck trying to locate the HQ of a Russian company which sells their games via internet. I don't think the game is intended to be sold in collector's edition package in the US anyway. Therefore, filing a lawsuit just to slow down the business would be very costly for Blizzard (first, they need to locate the HQ, then they need to obtain a court decision and then they have to potentially seek recognition&enforcement on foreign courts via International Treaties, not to mention the lawyer's fees here)

 

The worst case scenario would be direct misuse/violation of copyrights through some ability  characteristics+names (if they were properly copyrighted and protected by Blizzard-we know this is not always the case, you can read more about this at SEC filings (you can find it here: http://investor.acti...ec.cfm?view=all ) if the dev uses copyrigted content. However his game engine is not Blizzard's copyrighted engine, and you should already know WoW itself stole spells/mechanics from other games. They literally have a "Force Choke" from Star Wars: The Old Republic for DK's and just named it Asphyxiate. Did Bioware sue Blizzard ? No...they can't, because there is no valid grounds to do that. A copyrighted material is not easy to identify in games, because the characteristics of it has to be visually the same + introduced by the same engine. 

 

I wish Blizzard would sue this guy though, he would win his case and then he could easily make some millions via countersuit, claiming material damages since his project was damaged via defamation / unfair competition.


Edited by Warmonger_Skulm, 17 September 2017 - 10:24 PM.

  • 1

#52 Konjunktur

Konjunktur

Posted 17 September 2017 - 10:23 PM

I just wanted to write about the legal issue since I don't think there is this "one right and one wrong approach" in our discussion. The points you raise are crucial, even though we agree to disagree on most of them.

 

The legal dispute related to Dota2 mainly revolved around the "DOTA" brand name since Valve wanted to trademark it. In addition the in-game use of characters such as the "Skeleton King" and others were copyrighted by Blizzard. I tend to follow the corporate structure of US public companies, and read most of Blizzard's public announcements, as well as the publicly available court files, judge opinions, and the settlement agreement itself. First of all, the lawsuit ended with a "Settlement Agreement". Sure, you might want to say one side may have won since they had a higher leverage than the other, but technically, there is neither a winner, nor a loser. Both parties got to reach an agreement on acceptable terms. While Valve could keep the brand "DOTA"-"DOTA2", characters such as the Skeleton King were removed from the game (replaced by Wraith King afaik), so Blizzard also got what they wanted.

 

The legal issue you raised here would not have valid grounds, since this game in development uses none of the copyrighted materials by Blizzard. Besides, just compare it to the DOTA case, on one hand there is literally copyrighted brands, trademarks and on the other you have some spells which have similar names and work in a completely different game engine/artwork.  "The Arena" is a game mode, but not a copyrighted material, it is not a brand. Many games have arena modes. Regarding game mechanics, as long as this "Arena" game didn't steal the game engine (a property of Blizzard), then there is nothing wrong about the mechanics either. As long as a statement is within the scope of fair competition, any person in the US can advertise/compare their products against others (look at advertisements, they usually say theirs is best compared to others for example). Of course, there shouldn't be any defamation. In this case, the dev is not claiming his abilities/spells work exactly like WoW, he is not MISLEADING anyone into thinking his game is WoW-or a WoW copyrighted content. Now I can tell you one thing, and that is the jurisdiction. Valve is based in US so is Blizzard. since these two companies have their HQ's in the US, the lawsuit was within the jurisdiction of the US courts. However, a Russian company/individual is not within US jurisdiction by default. Therefore, the case would not go to a US court anyway, unless of course this Russian company would have a subsidiary in the US, or it would operate through a distrubiting company located in the US. Even if that would be the case, the lawsuit would be against the subsidiary / distributing company, and there is literally no copyright infringement at this point anyway. Besides, good luck trying to locate the HQ of a Russian company which sells their games via internet. I don't think the game is intended to be sold in collector's edition package in the US anyway. Therefore, opening a lawsuit just to slow down the business would be very costly for Blizzard.

 

The worst case scenario would be perhaps some ability names (if they were properly copyrighted and protected by Blizzard-we know this is not always the case, you can read more about this at SEC filings (you can find it here: http://investor.acti...ec.cfm?view=all ) if the dev uses copyrigted content. However his game engine is not Blizzard's copyrighted engine, and you should already know WoW itself stole spells/mechanics from other games. They literally have a "Force Choke" from Star Wars: The Old Republic for DK's and just named it Asphyxiate. Did Bioware sue Blizzard ? No...they can't, because there is no valid grounds to do that. A copyrighted material is not easy to identify in games, because the characteristics of it has to be visually the same + introduced by the same engine. 

 

I wish Blizzard would sue this guy though, he would win his case and then he could easily make some millions via countersuit, claiming material damages since his project was damaged via defamation / unfair competition.

 

Well, at least he knows who to reach for if he ever needs a lawyer.

Ah, a lawyer I see :)

 

Maybe you're right - but to be fair I feel like they'd find some attack surface to poke a hole at - depending on how the "final iteration" of the game turns out it will be almost an exact copy of WoW Arena just with different champions. Also, I assume the US is not the only area whose copyright laws are of interest, the entirety of EUand most importantly Russia ought to also be of substantial interest.

 

Also, if you ever did become his lawyer I recon you'd get buried by the massive amount of paperwork sent by the hordes of lawyers of Blizzard, because to my knowledge that's what happens to "smaller firms" when they try to take on the big dogs. Honestly, the kind of money he'd have to spend in order to 'win' such a lawsuit (and then to potentially win a counter lawsuit) is not the kind of money he has (afaik) - which is exactly what Blizzard would be betting on in a situation like that.


Edited by Konjunktur, 17 September 2017 - 10:27 PM.

  • 1

#53 Warmonger_Skulm

Warmonger_Skulm
  • Junkies
  • Orcclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 89
  • Talents: Frost 1/0/2/1/2/2/2
  • 2v2: 1205
  • 3v3: 2313
  • RBG: 576

Posted 17 September 2017 - 10:29 PM

Ah, a lawyer I see :)

 

Maybe you're right - but to be fair I feel like they'd find some attack surface to poke a hole at - depending on how the "final iteration" of the game turns out it will be almost an exact copy of WoW Arena just with different champions. Also, I assume the US is not the only area whose copyright laws are of interest, the entirety of EUand most importantly Russia ought to also be of substantial interest.

 

Also, if you ever did become his lawyer I recon you'd get burried by the massive amount of paperwork sent by the hordes of lawyers of Blizzard, because to my knowledge that's what happens to "smaller firms" when they try to take on the big dogs. Honestly, the kind of money he'd have to spend in order to 'win' such a lawsuit (and then to potentially win a counter lawsuit) is not the kind of money he has (afaik) - which is exactly what Blizzard would be betting on in a situation like that.

 

Let us not make this into "Suits" TV series (good show though :P

 

Well, once you are against a "big dog", you can always seek cooperation through other "big dogs", if you have a solid case at hand, they would be more than happy to help you destroy their opponent, so that they can advertise that case to further promote themselves :)

 

And tbh, all he needs is a crazy "Joker" like me, hell, I would just defend him for sake of troubling Blizzard, maybe that way they would improve the arenas and we wouldn't be theorycrafying here :P

 

You raise good points as always though. Good night man.


Edited by Warmonger_Skulm, 17 September 2017 - 10:34 PM.

  • 1

#54 Konjunktur

Konjunktur

Posted 17 September 2017 - 10:44 PM

Let us not make this into "Suits" TV series (good show though :P

 

Well, once you are against a "big dog", you can always seek cooperation through other "big dogs", if you have a solid case at hand, they would be more than happy to help you destroy their opponent, so that they can advertise that case to further promote themselves :)

 

And tbh, all he needs is a crazy "Joker" like me, hell, I would just defend him for sake of troubling Blizzard, maybe that way they would improve the arenas and we wouldn't be theorycrafying here :P

 

You raise good points as always though. Good night man.

Now I don't know what TV series that is but alright haha, take care.


  • 1

#55 Refren

Refren
  • Junkies
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • EU-Ravencrest
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 616
  • Talents: Marksmanship 1/1/0/2/0/0/0
  • 3v3: 2599
  • RBG: 384

Posted 20 September 2017 - 12:29 AM

not gonna lie this looks like ass 


  • 0

#56 drcrck

drcrck
  • Members
  • Posts: 14

Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:36 AM

not gonna lie this looks like ass

This looks like any other indie game on the same stage of development

Well, at least he knows who to reach for if he ever needs a lawyer.

Ok, thanks for your support :D

But 20 abilities is even less than Legion, basically 20 abilities is going to be even more boring than Legion, imo - Legion 2.0 basically.

I agree, 20 is a really low number for a tab-targeting game like WoW
But here you should focus on enemies and their positions, not on your action bar
22-24 is possible, but any bigger number would make this game really hard to play

Bandits and Mutants could really use a secondary resource similar to combo points as well to limit their usefulness and add some skillcap.

I've removed energy mostly because there is no auto attacks in the game and it looks strange when you're low on energy and have no abilities to use, just standing and looking at enemy :D
Also, the same reason again: aiming and controlling enemy positions is hard itself, so damage dealing shouldn't be complicated or this would be a game for R1 gladiators only

I also think the Wizard should be more of a Frost Mage, relying on burst setups to win games. Overall I think more people would enjoy a Frost Mage champion than a Fire Mage one.

I don't like WoW mages mana — it doesn't affect you gameplay in any way (unless you spellsteal every GCD)
So I've removed it and replaced with fire energy, which works the same way as legion shadow priest's insanity
You activate Combustion and your energy starts draining increasingly fast until it reaches 0 and combustion ends
That's why a wizard uses fire spells to deal damage

In a game like yours lagging can actually be an advantage.

It can, but server won't allow you lag too much to make it a real advantage

And against casters you just hide behind your healer so they can't attack without risking to hit the healer?

Of course you can stand in your healer to avoid/break CC on him, it's possible even in WoW in some cases
But do it once and next time your enemies will get their stuns and cooldowns ready to annihilate you both in one cc chain
Like in the begining of this video:

Also they can CC you both and kill your 3rd teammate

A list of 12 Champions could be:

Looks good, but I think tinkerer should be removed and replaced by a healer

I could go more in-depth about how I envision some of those champions but they do require lock-on targetting and a shift from AoE CC being the norm to locked-on-targetted CC being the norm. Additionally they would have more than 20 abilities

You want me to make a 100% WoW clone :D
But what for? There are many private servers from Classic to WoD and they are pretty good if you like old school PvP
I want to make a new game, not a clone, with new and fresh gameplay, but based on the same concepts as WoW arena: positioning, cc, cd management, teamplay

New video:



Sign up for beta here: https://goo.gl/forms/IYSAQtiRXQVY2B192
  • 0

#57 Gimotqt

Gimotqt
  • Junkies
  • Orcclass_name
  • EU-Twisting Nether
  • Rampage / Saccage
  • Posts: 116
  • Talents: Marksmanship

Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:27 AM

number of abilities also depends on how many characters(or customization for specific char-specs/talents  u wanna implement into the game

i think mixing a lot of chars with 15spells is better than 30spells and 10chars 

wow arena with league champions pool and ban/pick syhstem even in current state(legion,wod) would be super interesting even tho game is not that great overall

more chars = more options = less scripted gameplay


Edited by Gimotqt, 20 September 2017 - 10:28 AM.

  • 0

#58 Konjunktur

Konjunktur

Posted 20 September 2017 - 04:59 PM

number of abilities also depends on how many characters(or customization for specific char-specs/talents  u wanna implement into the game

i think mixing a lot of chars with 15spells is better than 30spells and 10chars 

wow arena with league champions pool and ban/pick syhstem even in current state(legion,wod) would be super interesting even tho game is not that great overall

more chars = more options = less scripted gameplay

 

More characters doesn't mean more options in-game (it only means there's more comp variety), there are still only 6 characters in any given game. And those 6 characters have less abilities => more scripted gameplay.

 

This looks like any other indie game on the same stage of development

Ok, thanks for your support  :D

I agree, 20 is a really low number for a tab-targeting game like WoW
But here you should focus on enemies and their positions, not on your action bar
22-24 is possible, but any bigger number would make this game really hard to play

I've removed energy mostly because there is no auto attacks in the game and it looks strange when you're low on energy and have no abilities to use, just standing and looking at enemy  :D
Also, the same reason again: aiming and controlling enemy positions is hard itself, so damage dealing shouldn't be complicated or this would be a game for R1 gladiators only

I don't like WoW mages mana — it doesn't affect you gameplay in any way (unless you spellsteal every GCD)
So I've removed it and replaced with fire energy, which works the same way as legion shadow priest's insanity
You activate Combustion and your energy starts draining increasingly fast until it reaches 0 and combustion ends
That's why a wizard uses fire spells to deal damage

It can, but server won't allow you lag too much to make it a real advantage

Of course you can stand in your healer to avoid/break CC on him, it's possible even in WoW in some cases
But do it once and next time your enemies will get their stuns and cooldowns ready to annihilate you both in one cc chain
Like in the begining of this video:

Also they can CC you both and kill your 3rd teammate

Looks good, but I think tinkerer should be removed and replaced by a healer

You want me to make a 100% WoW clone  :D
But what for? There are many private servers from Classic to WoD and they are pretty good if you like old school PvP
I want to make a new game, not a clone, with new and fresh gameplay, but based on the same concepts as WoW arena: positioning, cc, cd management, teamplay

New video:



Sign up for beta here: https://goo.gl/forms/IYSAQtiRXQVY2B192

Yeah, I wouldn't mind a WoW Arena copy (I think most people here would love that) - because that's what this thread is asking for ("games like arena").

 

You're trying to make some sort of MOBA extreme version, with elements from WoW PvP.

 

Honestly, your game looks like it's just going to be a clusterfuck, á la Legion 2.0, for the exact reasons I outlined in my earlier posts.

 

AoE damage and CC (that breaks on damage) doesn't mix well. The main issues are found below: (that you call features but I'm one hundred percent convinced will be massive annoyances, ie issues, to the playerbase)

 

A ) Casters not being able to attack anything but the melee pummeling their face covering 90% of their "aim" area.

B ) Casters permanently blocking their healers so 'aimed' CC on the healer can never hit.

C ) "run to the healer so CC is broken" / "hide behind CC'd healer so they can't hit me". You seem to think this is solvable by "just stunning them and blowing them up", but if it were - don't you think that "solution" would've been widely used in Legion, especially by the classes with AoE stuns? Hint: it hasn't. This is a massive issue in Legion with everything and their mother doing AoE damage - and it's not punishable, and most certainly won't be in your game either with high caliber players.

 

Also, why would I want to play some private server ran by some shady individual(s) that also never gets patched (same meta forever) and is riddled with bugs? Just look at what HoN did to the MOBA community, that's what I want for WoW PvP - not private servers, which is quite the opposite.

 

But well, gl with your game.


Edited by Konjunktur, 20 September 2017 - 04:59 PM.

  • 0

#59 Ickz

Ickz
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 448
  • Talents: Assassination 2/2/1/2/1/0/0
  • 2v2: 2325
  • 3v3: 957

Posted 20 September 2017 - 05:56 PM

Gl with your game, but let's be honest, it has no chance to be successful in the long run unless you somehow manage to get really good artists and programmers. All the standalone "WoW arena" games like Forge or that other old game from the TBC/WoTLK era that supposedly had top WoW players working on it never work. Even polished games like BLC/Battlerite don't have a huge following/playerbase. 

 

For such a game to have a chance in the current gaming environment, it would have to be insanely polished, have a great and ideally stylized art style that makes it easy to tell what's going on, and not have tons of abilities to make combat one big clusterfuck, but still have enough depth to promote skillfull gameplay - would have to be action/skillshot based combat, because the vast majority of players interested in a new competitive game would just lol at something like a WoW/MMO targetting system.

 

Janky indie games can work/be good if they're singleplayer or just casual multiplayer shit like Golf It or whatever - if your goal is to make a competitive game with matchmaking and whatnot, it needs to be polished as shit and look professional so you actually have a decently sized playerbase.


  • 0

#60 drcrck

drcrck
  • Members
  • Posts: 14

Posted 17 October 2017 - 05:21 AM

Gl with your game, but let's be honest, it has no chance to be successful in the long run unless you somehow manage to get really good artists and programmers. All the standalone "WoW arena" games like Forge or that other old game from the TBC/WoTLK era that supposedly had top WoW players working on it never work. Even polished games like BLC/Battlerite don't have a huge following/playerbase. 

 

For such a game to have a chance in the current gaming environment, it would have to be insanely polished, have a great and ideally stylized art style that makes it easy to tell what's going on, and not have tons of abilities to make combat one big clusterfuck, but still have enough depth to promote skillfull gameplay - would have to be action/skillshot based combat, because the vast majority of players interested in a new competitive game would just lol at something like a WoW/MMO targetting system.

 

Janky indie games can work/be good if they're singleplayer or just casual multiplayer shit like Golf It or whatever - if your goal is to make a competitive game with matchmaking and whatnot, it needs to be polished as shit and look professional so you actually have a decently sized playerbase.

 

I agree.
My game will never be as popular as Dota and other AAA games.
But is this a reason to stop development?
I don't think so =P

 

New video:

 

 

Sign up for beta here: https://goo.gl/forms/IYSAQtiRXQVY2B192 

Also, PM me if you have 2200+ exp in any bracket and want to participate in closed alpha testing ;)


  • 0




5 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 5 guests, 0 anonymous users

<