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#1 Theed

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 08:40 AM

Theed ‏@itsTheed
@devolore What can you tell us about your current plans in WoD for the Diminishing Return System?

Josh Allen ‏@devolore  
@itsTheed Still in discussion, but fewer DR categories (meaning more shared DR's) is a big one.


Thornass ‏@ThornassEU
@devolore @itsTheed Definitely a solid choice, but it feels a little like a bit of a boring one too, don't you agree?


Josh Allen ‏@devolore
@ThornassEU @itsTheed Just one ingredient to an overall strategy. Flour is boring, but cake is delicious.

Thornass ‏@ThornassEU
@devolore @itsTheed Touché. I guess I will patiently wait for the rest of the changes. :)

Brian Maxson ‏@BKMaxson  
@devolore @itsTheed Will something on the UI make it clear which category CC is on your target/which category your CC fits into?

  
Josh Allen ‏@devolore
@BKMaxson @itsTheed Not sure yet. We'd like to do something like that, but not exactly sure what.

What do you think? How many and what categories will be present in WoD?

#2 Crawthz

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 09:13 AM

They're going to fuck it up badly in one way or another, like "Stun effects share DR with every other control effect".

This is something I am 120% sure they can't get right.
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#3 Breez

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 09:19 AM

Stupid way of fixing cc, should remove random retarded instant cc abilities instead. The way blizzard works can expect Fear DR with Stuns in the end.

#4 ROKMODE

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 09:36 AM

There is probably a way to make this sound promising, but blizzard has demonstrated that they are not very good at pvp system overhauls.
We saw this with the numerous dispel changes over the years that have effectively only made things worse with each drastic revision.
This is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuugggggggggeeeeeee change, and blizzard has to properly compensate for about a hundred different factors if they wish to see even remotely the same game afterward.
Expect bias in posts because
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#5 Mogul

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 09:53 AM

They somehow want to reduce the ammount of CC that curently exist ingame. But i highly doubt this is the way to do it.
DR fear with a stun will most likely reduce the CC happening in one arena, but it will most likely ruin some classes aswell.

#6 Virent

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:47 PM

So in the new expansion, stuff like "After fear, let's hex the dps and swap on healer with a stun" won't be possible cuz the stuns will last for crap time then?

Just assuming that's the way they're going to do it. I hope not.

Best way would probably be CCs that you can kill your target during should be on the same DR and CCs that break on damage should on a different DR. Say, fear and poly share a DR the same way silences and stuns should. Although, healing might have to be nerfed alongside this due to resulting in immortality if it stays like it is now. However, that might promote train setups so maybe that would have to be looked alongside it as well. I don't know, it's pretty complicated really. I don't know how I'd fix it. Just hope they don't make it worse.

Edited by Virent, 10 January 2014 - 12:51 PM.

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#7 Veyl14

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:25 PM

Come on people , you kept complaining in the last year of the incredible number of cc's and now when they plan to DRASTICALLY reduce them you complain yet again but this time against the change. You expect perfection yet you have nothing to offer.

#8 Crawthz

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:35 PM

View PostVirent, on 10 January 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

So in the new expansion, stuff like "After fear, let's hex the dps and swap on healer with a stun" won't be possible cuz the stuns will last for crap time then?

Just assuming that's the way they're going to do it. I hope not.

Best way would probably be CCs that you can kill your target during should be on the same DR and CCs that break on damage should on a different DR. Say, fear and poly share a DR the same way silences and stuns should. Although, healing might have to be nerfed alongside this due to resulting in immortality if it stays like it is now. However, that might promote train setups so maybe that would have to be looked alongside it as well. I don't know, it's pretty complicated really. I don't know how I'd fix it. Just hope they don't make it worse.

Here's the problem with having silence + stun DR with eachother: You would HAVE TO score a kill in a stun. That would result in MASSIVE damage increase for all classes, or games would be decided by some end-game draw system like the Crowd Chooses You -bullshit we had earlier.

Also, you just can't have Fear and Mesmerize effects share DR with eachother. The categories are just too massive to be under one Diminishing Table. That would break many, many comps that has worked in the history. Combining DR categories as they are right now would make controlling enemies just completely irrelevant and promote comps that just doesn't need CC to work, like TSG.

The best way I can think of fixing DR's is removing so called "Short" duration CC's. Like this list here: http://us.battle.net...pic/10195910192 - Remove Mesmerize Short and apply it to Mesmerize effects. Remove Horror's and put them into Fears. Remove Stun Short and put them into Stuns categories and so on. Also, remove ALL "auto"-CC, like Psyfiend and Chivarra or w/e the wlock seductionbot is. Remove damage component from Stun CC, like Shockwave/Stormbolt/Fist of Fury when used against Playertargets. No CC should ever have it's "own" DR category, like Paralytic Poison.

The above would require fixes to classes aswell, like Warriors Charge would root the target into place for 1,5sec and remove it's stun component, so it wouldn't DR with rest of the Stuns. But I think it would reduce the amount of "mongo"-cc we have. Nothing pisses me off more than juking 4 interrupts, grounding and MSR just to get chargestunned on the 7th fakecast. "Oh you fakecasted my Pummel and Disrupting Shout.. That's too bad, here have a Stormbolt in your face"...

Also, want to promote casting? Here's a wild idea: Make interrupts have DR table of it's own. If you Pummel my Healing Surge cast once, next time I get locked on Healing Surge within 20sec it will only be half the lockdown and the 20sec Diminishing on casts resets. 3rd time I am immune (fuck 1/4th of DR cc's).

My personal opinion is that roots, silences and disarms work quite well right now but Silences could use 30sec cd instead of 20-24sec they have right now on Hunter/Wlock/Mage (or separate the silence and lockout completely, having 15sec CD on lockout and 45sec CD on Silence). Spear Hand Strike needs to have silence component removed completely.

But then again, messing around with DR categories have unthinkable effect on the gameplay which could very easily break the game completely and it's close to impossible without thorough testing to see the ends of every variable.

Edited by Crawthz, 10 January 2014 - 01:36 PM.

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#9 mirox

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:37 PM

Cant wait for it to be damage bot after they probably fuck up with this and all my stuns and silences, along with blind and sap, DR each other.

#10 Snuggli

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:51 PM

The problem is, is that a lot of the people who post on Blizzard forums (take what you will from that) have been calling for a single DR category since ever. I've read threads where literally nobody looks at the problems that will arise if that were to happen, and this puts Blizz in a sticky situation because the majority of PVPers want a single DR category, because they 'dont like dying in chain cc'.

Removing DR categories, or even bringing it down to 2, 3 or 4 will mean:
  • Swaps (in Arena and RBGs) will be completely ruined
  • Many Arena comps which rely on CC will break
  • Rogues will get completely fucked (no more sap -> cheap -> garrote)
  • Either healing will have to do nothing or burst damage will have to be insane to counteract the lack of CC
  • Either classes with amazing active defensives (Hunters, Mages) or classes with good passive defenses and self healing (DKs, Warriors) will be vastly better than everyone else in the above scenarios.


The way to fix the insane amount of CC is to reduce the insane amount of CC, not merge DRs. One of the best things about WoW PvP is the different category of DRs, as it opens up gameplay styles like cleaning someone in a CC before swapping to them in a stun, or double/triple CCing and swapping to a different target.

Remove the shit CCs that don't need to be there and have cluttered the game. Disorienting Roar, Mesmerise, Psyfiend, Wyvern Sting, Shockwave or Stormbolt, Ring of Frost, Hunter pet CCs, Blood Horror, etc.

View PostBraindance, on 11 October 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

Go listen to some Bieber shit and leave me alone fucko.

#11 mirox

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:58 PM

View PostSnuggli, on 10 January 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

The problem is, is that a lot of the people who post on Blizzard forums (take what you will from that) have been calling for a single DR category since ever. I've read threads where literally nobody looks at the problems that will arise if that were to happen, and this puts Blizz in a sticky situation because the majority of PVPers want a single DR category, because they 'dont like dying in chain cc'.

Removing DR categories, or even bringing it down to 2, 3 or 4 will mean:
  • Swaps (in Arena and RBGs) will be completely ruined
  • Many Arena comps which rely on CC will break
  • Rogues will get completely fucked (no more sap -> cheap -> garrote)
  • Either healing will have to do nothing or burst damage will have to be insane to counteract the lack of CC
  • Either classes with amazing active defensives (Hunters, Mages) or classes with good passive defenses and self healing (DKs, Warriors) will be vastly better than everyone else in the above scenarios.
The way to fix the insane amount of CC is to reduce the insane amount of CC, not merge DRs. One of the best things about WoW PvP is the different category of DRs, as it opens up gameplay styles like cleaning someone in a CC before swapping to them in a stun, or double/triple CCing and swapping to a different target.

Remove the shit CCs that don't need to be there and have cluttered the game. Disorienting Roar, Mesmerise, Psyfiend, Wyvern Sting, Shockwave or Stormbolt, Ring of Frost, Hunter pet CCs, Blood Horror, etc.

Thats all true and a direction in which they should steer the game, but then again, when have they ever did something in this game that doesn't include simplifying it further on? Its always 'to hard' for average player, and they always tend to make it even more 'retard-friendly', making it almost impossible to differ a good player from someone who is just randomly pressing buttons that glow.

Casting while running (too hard to cast while standing still).
Subterfuge(mongo in, get knocked out, still have opener).
Every warrior stun that ignores parry/dodge (why get behind someone when you can stun them from 30 yards away through 100% evasion).
Pom poly and all the blanket CS(too hard to cast one).
Decrease time taken to activate trap(too hard to land it).
Passive damage reduction that every class has(mongo in with out worrying too much).

Just some of the examples....

Edited by mirox, 10 January 2014 - 02:05 PM.


#12 Schvetolga

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 02:07 PM

The biggest problem that I see is a CD on dispel. The easiest way to peel right now is to spam fear/poly because you know the healer can only get 1 poly/fear and then you're stuck in 5-6 seconds fear or poly either way. I dont really understand what they were thinking when they introduced an insane amount of instant CC and at the same time made dispel have a CD, doesn't really make much sense to me.
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#13 Moshe

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 02:26 PM

Apparently I can't read :< so nvm

Edited by Moshe, 10 January 2014 - 08:54 PM.


#14 Crawthz

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 02:33 PM

View PostUrbandurban, on 10 January 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

The biggest problem that I see is a CD on dispel. The easiest way to peel right now is to spam fear/poly because you know the healer can only get 1 poly/fear and then you're stuck in 5-6 seconds fear or poly either way. I dont really understand what they were thinking when they introduced an insane amount of instant CC and at the same time made dispel have a CD, doesn't really make much sense to me.

If we'd have dispel CD back, it would only be a bandaid fix as most of the CC we have is always going on the healer and mostly every good team will cross-cc at the same time; so without dispel CD in most cases the CC will still feel over the top.

Spammable CC has been in the game since Vanilla and I really hope they won't remove them. Polymorph is probably the most balanced CC in the whole game, as it heals you to full and removes all the dots you had; no other CC in the game does that. It also doesn't take you to retarded places or has (to my memory?) never bugged anyone in the game. Cyclone out of three spammable CC is the middle as it has shorter range, shorter duration and makes you immune to everything. Fear is definetly the worst, as it can take 3-4 seconds of full row of Demonsoul dots and Reckstorming warrior to break the Fear. It will also move your character to most retarded places and is also known to bug out in the game most. Oh man when I play my alt healers and I get Howl of Terror'd into middle of the map while rotting with dots just to get DR Capacitator stunned to death.

I think the part what "everyone" whines about massive amount of CC is when you play a healer and get HoJ into Scatter into Wyvern into Blinding Light into Silencing Shot into HoJ into Scatter into Trap into Silencing Shot and you can't break that chain. Or something similar where you can chain instant, unstoppable and in some cases, undispellable CC from one to another.

View PostMoshe, on 10 January 2014 - 02:26 PM, said:

Ok dude, so you want to completely remove warriors' stuns and only increase mage CS cd by six seconds? Sure m8

No, I don't. I just don't want to die in Fist of Fury while rest of the enemy team is CC'd because it does damage while keeping me stunned while being "untrinketable". Same goes for Shockwave and Stormbolt, why the fuck do they need to do damage? It's not like any PvE tank uses them in bossfights and if they do, it's certainly not for the damage part.

But as usual, someone cries "Mommy, why am I getting nerfed but he doesn't?!?!??!?" Typical player who Blizzard caters to. "It's ok, have a lollipop and 1 button that completely shits on everything that moves in arena, happy now??"
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#15 Hnng

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 03:49 PM

View PostBreez, on 10 January 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

Stupid way of fixing cc, should remove random retarded instant cc abilities instead. The way blizzard works can expect Fear DR with Stuns in the end.
well they are basically the same thing these days

#16 Moshe

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 04:30 PM

nvm edit

Edited by Moshe, 10 January 2014 - 08:54 PM.


#17 Crawthz

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 04:32 PM

View PostMoshe, on 10 January 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

I quess you missed my point but anyways you seem to think it's fine to remove every stun warrior has and make them dmg bots again.

ps. buff ice lance :)

And you seem to have problem with understanding what you read. I NEVER said remove warrior stuns, I said remove the DAMAGE PART of every stun.

[Edit]
The purpose what I suggested was that no stun should ever do damage, or then all of them should. I think the first one is better option where stuns won't do any damage.

The second part is what is really frustrating against warriors, but also a lot of classes is the mini-dr stuns, like Chargestun is. The reason charge even has a stun is that lag wouldn't play so big role, like landing charges 20yd away from the target. That is the reason I wanted to have 1,5sec ROOT on Charge instead of a stun and also, if combined ministun and stun DR categories would happen, Charge would be completely useless if it would DR stuns.

Edited by Crawthz, 10 January 2014 - 04:38 PM.

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#18 Moshe

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 04:42 PM

View PostCrawthz, on 10 January 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

And you seem to have problem with understanding what you read. I NEVER said remove warrior stuns, I said remove the DAMAGE PART of every stun.

[Edit]
The purpose what I suggested was that no stun should ever do damage, or then all of them should. I think the first one is better option where stuns won't do any damage.

The second part is what is really frustrating against warriors, but also a lot of classes is the mini-dr stuns, like Chargestun is. The reason charge even has a stun is that lag wouldn't play so big role, like landing charges 20yd away from the target. That is the reason I wanted to have 1,5sec ROOT on Charge instead of a stun and also, if combined ministun and stun DR categories would happen, Charge would be completely useless if it would DR stuns.

My mistake then but i'm sorry to inform you that they are not going to remove the dmg part for PvE reasons exactly unless they switch those "dmg stuns" to different tiers and threat them as dmg cooldowns. At most they prolly increase cd of these stuns

#19 Crawthz

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 04:45 PM

View PostMoshe, on 10 January 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

My mistake then but i'm sorry to inform you that they are not going to remove the dmg part for PvE reasons exactly unless they switch those "dmg stuns" to different tiers and threat them as dmg cooldowns. At most they prolly increase cd of these stuns

Deep Freeze used to have damage component in it and it was solely for PvE. The tooltip was something in line of "Deals n% amount of damage to a target that is permanently immune to stuns" and it was the hardest hitting PvE ability Frostmages had. I can't see why this treatment couldn't be given to every other stun aswell?
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#20 Moshe

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 04:51 PM

View PostCrawthz, on 10 January 2014 - 04:45 PM, said:

Deep Freeze used to have damage component in it and it was solely for PvE. The tooltip was something in line of "Deals n% amount of damage to a target that is permanently immune to stuns" and it was the hardest hitting PvE ability Frostmages had. I can't see why this treatment couldn't be given to every other stun aswell?

I hope they did, but they have said many times that they don't like abilities to have different tooltips for PvP and PvE and use it only as a last resort




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