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Resto - Haste or Mastery


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#1 rfrancis516

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 02:54 AM

Hey guys - I've been going back and forth and even trying to find a decent balance, but is the choice to stack haste or mastery a personal choice? Love the bigger heals, but miss the fast cast times when playing offensive. Pick one or the other basically?

Just looking for people's choices.
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#2 Haiyah

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 03:07 AM

This is a good heads up: http://www.icy-veins...e-healing-guide
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#3 Prolifics

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 05:22 AM

There are top druids stacking full haste (18%+ haste), and there are top druids stacking full mastery (26%+ mastery), and going super low on spirit. Its mostly just personal preference I'd say.

Personally, I find it clutch to have at least 15% haste because of sotf clones on warriors (this is actually really gamebreaking).. With 15.70% Haste, a lot of the time I'll be able to get a sotf clone off on a warrior when they actually barely manage to get reflect off before the clone hits them, but they still get cloned (this actually happens quite a bit). Where as if I was lower haste, the reflect would register first and the clone will be reflected. So the 15%+ haste + sotf makes it almost impossible for a warrior to reactively reflect a sotf clone. With reflects right now, its largely a game of miliseconds, and if you have a good amount of haste, you will usually be able to get the cyclone on them before the reflect registers. I think its more important now than ever to have high-ish haste, because as the season goes on, warriors are starting to get better and better with reacting to sotf clones fast.

And I'm pretty sure theres a haste threshold where when you get to a certain point, your sotf clones are impossible to reactively reflect, regardless of how good the warriors latency is. Its something I'd like to try and test out v.s a warrior in duels.

For stats, I don't really want to commit to either one, so I have more of a hybrid setup on my druid where I get a good balance of everything. My current unbuffed stats are:

- 15.70% Haste

- 20.27% Mastery

- 8.9k Spirit

(Thats with 517 ilevel in all my pvp gear with pvp trinkets). It includes using the Prowess bracers, and prowess cloak (cloak w/ a reforge to spirit).

I find it to be a good balance overall. Imo anymore spirit than like 9.2k is overkill w/ being Sotf spec and not having to spam regrowths in tree.

Edited by Prolifics, 14 November 2013 - 05:46 AM.

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#4 Batenx

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:40 PM

ALL OUT HASTE, BABY!
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#5 Batenx

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:52 PM

Also, if Warriors just learned to keep track of SotF it won't matter whether you're full haste or full mastery; they'll always be able to reflect the Cyclone if they're ready for it. But for now, I suppose full haste is slightly more beneficial in that aspect :)

Edited by Batenx, 14 November 2013 - 08:54 PM.

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#6 Italialol

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:29 PM

Also, if Warriors just learned to keep track of SotF it won't matter whether you're full haste or full mastery; they'll always be able to reflect the Cyclone if they're ready for it. But for now, I suppose full haste is slightly more beneficial in that aspect :)


This. No matter how fast your cyclone is they can easily reflect it if they for example track the buff with power auras or have some other addon tell them when the buff is up. Reflect used to require weapon swap which started 1sec GCD and was on GCD as well so if you used an ability and had to weapon swap right away well too bad you gotta wait for that GCD to finish + latency, so if your clone had 1.3 sec cast time warriors had less than 0.3 sec to react or pre equip shield if they expected to get cloned and sacrifice their damage. Now, reflects are on a completely separate GCD and do not require weapon swap so your "super fast" SOTF clones are actually easier to reflect than 1.3 sec WOTLK clones.

SOTF clone = SMend starts GCD (1-1.5 sec depending on your haste, the haste buff probably reduces GCD to 1 sec, I have not tested that) and puts up the haste buff + clone cast time ~0.8 sec. So essentially from the moment you gain the buff to the moment your clone lands there's roughly 1.8 sec - latency for a warrior to react if you start casting immediately.

You either have to fake cast or go for those clones when you know they turned on their mongotunnel vision mode and not paying attention to anything but their target's hp bar, unless that said mongoloid uses a reflect bot in which case it's super easy to waste reflects because you know bot gonna use reflect no matter what. I prefer faking, casting roots help as well. Also try not to be so obvious with your clones.

Edited by Italialol, 15 November 2013 - 04:34 PM.

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#7 rfrancis516

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 03:25 AM

Love the responses in here... very helpful. Thank you everyone. Since posting, I have switched back and forth and am really enjoying the hybrid of both haste and mastery, but slightly more on the haste side.
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#8 Admoney

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 03:57 PM

Has anyone else noticed a lot of warriors using Spell Reflect hacks? As if the interrupt hacking wasn't enough... This shit is getting out of hand, I played a warrior last night who reflected EVERY SINGLE nature's grasp/.7 clone in a 12min match except for one. Keep in mind that this trashlord used interrupt hack as well, so he was mindlessly pummeling/disrupting shout/shockwave/storm bolting basically every other cast instantly before my juke even cancels it. Pathetic.

Edit:
To relate to the post, this is what I run:http://us.battle.net...dmoney/advanced(note: I was doing RBG last night before i logged, so my helm and top trinket are not what i arena with. I have 3 helms with different metas (int/mana cost, pvp power/resil, stam/20% dmg reduc) as well as a normal pvp trinket.)

Explained:
5320 haste for 12.5% breakpoint, which gives an extra tick on tranq, 17th tick of lifebloom(18th tick with 5% buff) and 16th tick of WG with SOTF(17th tick with 5% haste buff), which allows me to put the rest into mastery for about 5-6% healing.

ONE MORE THING:
Does anyone ever use SotF Rejuv -> Genesis? I have started to lately and its very strong for burst healing through HoTs.

Edited by Admoney, 20 November 2013 - 04:21 PM.

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#9 Prolifics

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 12:01 AM

I tested out some numbers, looked at the difference between 26% Mastery and 18% Mastery, and my results were as follows:

26% Mastery, with MOTW buff, and Harmony up (no other buffs) : also, this is with the Tyrannical proc trinket equipped, not the grievous one, so my pvp power will be a bit less. This is also without battle fatigue.

- 152.5k Average Regrowth crit (would typically crit anywhere between 151k and 154k

- Rejuv ticking for 31,303

- 3x Bloom stack ticking for 13,687

Now with 18% mastery, motw buff, and harmony up:

- Regrowth crit avg: 143k

- Rejuv tick non-crit for 29,310

- 3x Bloom stack ticks for 12,846


So in conclusion, going from 26% mastery to 18% gives you about 9-10k less healing on regrowth crits, 2k less healing per rejuv tick, and about 840 less healing per bloom stack tick.

Thats actually a lot more healing loss than I thought from going with less mastery. I think maybe Heavy Mastery + Spirit and low haste might be the best way to go at the moment. I don't really see how going above 12.5% haste is really beneficial at all.. Unless you know something I don't baten, :P

Edited by Prolifics, 23 November 2013 - 12:02 AM.

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#10

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 01:02 AM

Thats actually a lot more healing loss than I thought from going with less mastery. I think maybe Heavy Mastery + Spirit and low haste might be the best way to go at the moment. I don't really see how going above 12.5% haste is really beneficial at all.. Unless you know something I don't baten, :P


People might have different views on this, but here's my personal opinion:

A haste heavy build does in fact produce a lower healing output than a mastery heavy build (in terms of actual healing numbers)
However, you gain faster globals and faster casts which will help you "cast more spells within the same time span" to compensate (but actually forces you to cast more spells for the same amount of healing aswell).

On the other hand, a mastery heavy build will provide bigger heals but proportionally longer globals. The average heal per second should be pretty much the same. You'll also not feel any more pressure healing-wise compared to higher haste because your gcd is longer; the bonus healing makes up for it.

However, you can tell the difference between a ~18% haste build and a ~11,1 (or whatever you like to go for) haste build while playing it. It just feels different. Given that different people enjoy different playstyles, one should just choose what feels more comfortable for them. Some people like a lot of haste, some don't. I personally like to go for the 4717 breakpoint because it just feels comfortable for me in terms of gcd length. You'll always perform best with a build you feel comfortable with. That's how I see it.

On a side note: I love the game so much more since I got myself 3% hit for bash. Whenever my bash misses I just want to stab myself :D

Edited by Nemix, 23 November 2013 - 01:05 AM.

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#11 Italialol

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 06:29 AM

Speaking of mastery. Has anyone actually tested PvP Power in comparison to mastery. Both increase healing done by hots and direct heals, however, mastery is more expensive than pvp power in terms of rating required to gain 1%. 480 mastery vs 400 pvp power, 20% more expensive. I noticed a lot of rdruids disregard 120 pvp power socket bonus. I remember there was a rule in PvE, I can't seem to find it, in short, intellect gemming is slightly better than mastery (not counting haste break points) until reaching certain amount of spell power after which 160 int < 320 mastery.

I'm not advocating for mastery gemming but pvp power socket bonuses are most likely not as bad as people think.

Haste vs Mastery, the difference is not that huge, do you want slow ticking strong hots, or faster ticking weaker hots, in the end the difference will be miniscule. However, haste allows you to do more stuff and do it faster due to shorter GCD on top of extra healing it provides. Passive haste also scales well with haste buffs like SotF and 5% haste aura. For ex., SotF turns 15.79% haste into 131.59% haste, not 115.79%.
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#12 TteSPORTSDoomsen

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 02:31 PM

I noticed a lot of rdruids disregard 120 pvp power socket bonus. I remember there was a rule in PvE, I can't seem to find it, in short, intellect gemming is slightly better than mastery (not counting haste break points) until reaching certain amount of spell power after which 160 int < 320 mastery.


Indeed, it is pretty dumb to go for two Intellect gems in the Chest for example. An Artful Gem (80 Int / 160 Mastery) should be worth more when you count the 120 PvP Power to it.

Regarding the Spellpower thing: Starship and I have tested that out a month back or so on the PTR, having different gear sets to see who comes ahead between Mastery and Intellect. Mastery won, but by around 200-300 more healing for a Regrowth for example and causing to lose a bit of crit. So generally, Intellect is still better to generally gem for than Mastery, it just has more benefits, for example for the passive ability "Killer Instinct" (Grants 100% of your Intellect as Agility when in Cat- & Bearform)

Then to the topic what stats to go for -
I'm personally going with this http://eu.battle.net...oomsen/advanced

The last Hastebreakpoint I'm aiming for his 5553, that is an additional 6th tick of Rejunveation if the 5% Hastebuff and SOTF are applied. Next one would be at around 6802, +22 Lifebloom ticks which is not worth that much in PvP at all since you are not using your SOTF for the blooms in most of the times.

But then again, you don't always play with someone that gives you the 5% Haste buff, neither you have SOTF up for the whole time. That for the Hastebreakpoint 5320 is interesting, which grants you +1 Rejuvenation and an additional Tranquility tick.

Personally I think my reforge is one of the most healing efficient ones that you can pick, theorycrafting wise. As said before, there are a lot of Druids going all out of haste, which I don't see as such a good choice. Båten said he's doing it for the faster globals and that is the only thing going for more haste brings. It's just a personal preference, but probably not the most efficient one, even tho I'm not quite sure about it.

Hope I could help a bit ^_^

Edited by TteSPORTSDoomsen, 23 November 2013 - 02:34 PM.

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#13 Batenx

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 04:28 PM

Interesting. Reason I'm going full haste is because you get way more globals for other shit than heals. I feel I can snowball a game pretty early by Cycloning left and right like a wild western movie and still have globals for healing to keep my bros offensive. Haste opens up more possibilities and I suppose the playstyle suits me better.

As for the Int/Mastery gem instead of double Int in chest... nah, my OCD would eat me alive and I wouldn't be able to play on my character if I gem Int/Haste in shoulders and then Int/Mastery in chest :D
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#14 rfrancis516

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 05:23 AM

Love the discussion, and it's really looking like it's just a personal preference. I am really enjoying the haste build as it allows me to be more offensive, or at least it feels that way.

On a side note, I see a lot of people using SotF over Incarnation. Is that also a personal preference? I just have no idea how to use it properly.
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#15 Prolifics

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 02:54 AM

Love the discussion, and it's really looking like it's just a personal preference. I am really enjoying the haste build as it allows me to be more offensive, or at least it feels that way.

On a side note, I see a lot of people using SotF over Incarnation. Is that also a personal preference? I just have no idea how to use it properly.


You just have to play a lot of games with SotF to get used to it and it becomes second nature. When the patch hit and I started using it I felt like I had downs for the first ~50 games before I got the hang of it and always remembered to use it for something. Just have to get into the habit of trying to use swiftmend on CD to make the most of it.

Edited by Prolifics, 25 November 2013 - 02:54 AM.

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#16 Prolifics

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 03:17 AM

Also, anyone tried SotF hasted rejuv in combination with genesis on it? Its pretty lol.
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#17 Gaates

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 04:25 AM

I think it's pretty straight forward. A lot of people argue for Haste with globals, but Mastery is just better from a healing throughput standpoint.

Intellect > Spirit to a Comfortable Level > Haste (5320 without 5% Haste buff, 3043 without)
The more you play, the better you will get with not wasting globals/Mana and the value of going for more than the Haste breakpoint will decrease as well as the value of Spirit allowing you to invest more heavily into Mastery.

SotF is better in almost every aspect. I do like Incarnation against Enhance/X double DPS considering 9/10 use a non shiftable Hex after Ascendance, so I just Tree as soon as it's popped and watch "Immune" flash. It can be good against Affliction/Boomkin and Mage/x double DPS as well for AS Hex/PoM Polymorph.

Swiftmend -> Rejuvenation -> Genesis is ridiculous also.
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#18 NarkiNukem

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 10:02 AM

Agree with 12,52% haste soft cap (rej+tranq additional tick) and if you play with +5% - u`ll get additional LB/reg tick;
Сonsidering so much instant CC - u need strong hots to keep up ur mate, while you are out of fight,
so i prefer to go mastery after soft cap of haste;
I suppose gaining full haste - wasting of stats and reasonable only if you`re pro and want just to show off;
How can you feel, for example, +5% faster gcd? how? - But you will really feel +5% your totall healing, think.
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#19 Italialol

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 01:53 PM

Agree with 12,52% haste soft cap (rej+tranq additional tick) and if you play with +5% - u`ll get additional LB/reg tick;
Сonsidering so much instant CC - u need strong hots to keep up ur mate, while you are out of fight,
so i prefer to go mastery after soft cap of haste;
I suppose gaining full haste - wasting of stats and reasonable only if you`re pro and want just to show off;
How can you feel, for example, +5% faster gcd? how? - But you will really feel +5% your totall healing, think.


Mastery is worth 480 rating, Haste 425 rating. It's the matter of trade off, some of your heals scale better with haste than others. trading off 10% mastery for 11.29% haste will not make you lose 10% healing, it's the delta you're most interested in. You can download rdruid spreadsheet from EJ and set its spell rotation, targets etc. for a typical PvP situation, and believe me you'd be surprised that depending on the haste break points you can achieve the % difference is very tiny. Probably not many people use combat log with time stamps, regular combat log will not tell you much about hots healing frequency, you just see numbers go up and down depending on your mastery and ignore hots timings.
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#20 HiImSynthetic

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 07:47 PM

Haste has always been my go to stat but with all the melee buffs and soft cap on haste, mastery is looking pretty good :D
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