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#21 seizureman18

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 04:22 PM

View PostVengeful95, on 15 November 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

No

Could you describe full opener vs melee? You said earlier cheapshot -> hemo -> ambush.

With that opener, you have 5 combo points and 1 second left on subterfuge. At this point will you use garrote (45 energy) and also waste 1 combo point, or are you going to kidney and not garrote at all?

#22 Vengeful95

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 04:35 PM

View Postseizureman18, on 15 November 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

Could you describe full opener vs melee? You said earlier cheapshot -> hemo -> ambush.

With that opener, you have 5 combo points and 1 second left on subterfuge. At this point will you use garrote (45 energy) and also waste 1 combo point, or are you going to kidney and not garrote at all?

You would want to Eviscerate, I thought it would be obvious, and after that you want to MFD  kidney full.

Sorry for causing any confusion.
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#23 rhinoboat

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 05:56 PM

opening on a warrior I typically will premed snd, sap someone, tricks my teammate and cheap shot -> hemo hemo kidney. If my partner gets to actually burst with tricks at all then they will be at 60% or less before kidney ends and I just mfd evis.

If my teammate gets peeled, i can still do a decent amount of pressure with backstab and force a defensive cd anyway. Then I swap to healer with full energy vanish garrote or something, so the healer either trinkets or the warrior never gets topped off. At this point my teammate usually ends the game lol.

But when war gets topped off, gotta expect SOMEONE on the team used trinket. If they do, just get 100 energy, throw blind on warrior and dance/blades/maybe bomb on whoever it is and they'll typically die. If warrior trinkets blind right away, just rape him instead once stun drs come up.

This falls apart when the other team is better than you and fucks up your opener even a little bit, in which case the right order to push your buttons is gonna change. Just always try to sap someone and open as hard as you can on a second target without using cds yet to set up kills 20seconds later. Commiting to kills in opener will get you stuck at like 2k once people start peeling for eachother.

#24 seizureman18

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 04:38 PM

View PostVengeful95, on 15 November 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

You would want to Eviscerate, I thought it would be obvious, and after that you want to MFD  kidney full.

Sorry for causing any confusion.

Just tested some openers and their damage. I only included damage to the target for the duration of Cheapshot / Kidney Shot. I also used the tooltips and 522 daggers for the numbers. (Please feel free to correct me if I haven't used proper Math anywhere)

Your opener:

Cheapshot -> Hemo* (11755) -> Ambush (43660) -> Evisc (77091) -> MFD -> Kidney -> Backstab (30624) -> Backstab (30624) = 193754
*At this point there isnt any bleed on the target so I reduced Hemos damage by 1/3.

My opener with Relentless Strikes proc:

Cheapshot -> Rupture (11180) -> Ambush (43660) -> Ambush (43660) -> Kidney -> MFD -> Evisc (77091) -> Backstab (30624) = 206215

My opener without Relentless Strikes proc:

Cheapshot -> Rupture (11180) -> Ambush (43660) -> Backstab (30624) -> Kidney -> MFD -> Evisc (77091) -> Backstab (30624) =  193179

So 40% of the time you are doing 206215, 60% of the time 193179. With Hemo opener you are doing 193754 100% of the time.

#25 Vengeful95

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 04:50 PM

View Postseizureman18, on 16 November 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Just tested some openers and their damage. I only included damage to the target for the duration of Cheapshot / Kidney Shot. I also used the tooltips and 522 daggers for the numbers. (Please feel free to correct me if I haven't used proper Math anywhere)

Your opener:

Cheapshot -> Hemo* (11755) -> Ambush (43660) -> Evisc (77091) -> MFD -> Kidney -> Backstab (30624) -> Backstab (30624) = 193754
*At this point there isnt any bleed on the target so I reduced Hemos damage by 1/3.

My opener with Relentless Strikes proc:

Cheapshot -> Rupture (11180) -> Ambush (43660) -> Ambush (43660) -> Kidney -> MFD -> Evisc (77091) -> Backstab (30624) = 206215

My opener without Relentless Strikes proc:

Cheapshot -> Rupture (11180) -> Ambush (43660) -> Backstab (30624) -> Kidney -> MFD -> Evisc (77091) -> Backstab (30624) =  193179

So 40% of the time you are doing 206215, 60% of the time 193179. With Hemo opener you are doing 193754 100% of the time.

This should all be correct, but there are several other things to keep in mind, reforging stats, gear. Maybe for the opener yes you will do 7k more dmg with rupture, but in the long run I think hemo will give out more damage than rupture just for the fact that hemo is doing its damage in 1 attack and is a combo generator while rupture spends the combo points, those combo points could be used for an eviscirate and do aprox 40-> 60k more damage.

Also either rupture or garrote needs to be on the target at all times so you'd want to use it with 5 combo points if you're having a lot of uptime.
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#26 seizureman18

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 11:06 PM

View PostVengeful95, on 16 November 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

This should all be correct, but there are several other things to keep in mind, reforging stats, gear. Maybe for the opener yes you will do 7k more dmg with rupture, but in the long run I think hemo will give out more damage than rupture just for the fact that hemo is doing its damage in 1 attack and is a combo generator while rupture spends the combo points, those combo points could be used for an eviscirate and do aprox 40-> 60k more damage.

Also either rupture or garrote needs to be on the target at all times so you'd want to use it with 5 combo points if you're having a lot of uptime.

OP was asking about doing damage in openers, not the long run.

#27 Vengeful95

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:06 AM

View Postseizureman18, on 16 November 2013 - 11:06 PM, said:

OP was asking about doing damage in openers, not the long run.

Okay. . . Btw, did you take into account the damage rupture did in the 3 second opener? or did you add it up all the damage it did after the opener?
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#28 Vengeful95

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:16 AM

Anyways, the fact is that the damage difference is so low that he'd rather go for the most dmg in the long range and have his veins up on his target at all times, he can go for whatever spec he wants atleast our advice will probably help him out as he started out this thread about rupturing and garroting in his opener and that is what matters.
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#29 seizureman18

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:15 AM

View PostVengeful95, on 17 November 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

Okay. . . Btw, did you take into account the damage rupture did in the 3 second opener? or did you add it up all the damage it did after the opener?

I counted 3 ticks of Rupture during the 7.5 second stun chain, not the full duration.

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 05:45 AM

View PostVengeful95, on 17 November 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

Anyways, the fact is that the damage difference is so low that he'd rather go for the most dmg in the long range and have his veins up on his target at all times, he can go for whatever spec he wants atleast our advice will probably help him out as he started out this thread about rupturing and garroting in his opener and that is what matters.
why would u rupture?its a total waste no matter which way u see it, dmg wise,  combo points waste.

#31 seizureman18

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:36 PM

View PostYarmyxx, on 17 November 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

why would u rupture?its a total waste no matter which way u see it, dmg wise,  combo points waste.


You wouldnt ever Rupture before a burst opportunity?

#32 Vengeful95

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:49 PM

View PostYarmyxx, on 17 November 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

why would u rupture?its a total waste no matter which way u see it, dmg wise,  combo points waste.

sanguinary veins, (if you're not using the new glyph introduced in 5.4)
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#33 SadRogue

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 11:07 AM

Is it even wise to use both Garrote and Hemo in a opener?

e.g. Premed>SnD>CheapShot>Garrote>Hemo>Evisc>MfD>Evisc    ??????

#34 cubas

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 11:20 AM

i like this opener if i want to do fast damage:

premed>snd>cheap>hemo>ambush>evi>mfd>evi

ad. rupture - why would you rupture if you are going for quick burst? Its for sustained damage, you have the sang. vein buff from hemo.

Edited by cubas, 21 November 2013 - 11:24 AM.

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#35 seizureman18

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 12:12 AM

Ok we need to break this down into 3 separate openers.

1. About to land a kill so need a lot of burst fast.
2. Standard opener on a target to build pressure.
3. Control opener. Using garrote, cheap shot and kidney for maximum lockout.

So if you are posting your opener here please specify which type of opener you are going for.

#36 lorti

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 08:19 PM

the opener i usually use on start of arena:
premed-snd-sap-tricks-cs-hemo-waiting for hat proc-evis-mfd-ks-shd-ambush-waiting couple of secs-garrote-evis
with shadow blades:
premed-snd-sap-tricks-sb-cs-hemo-evis-mfd-ks-shd-ambush-evis-garrote-ambush-evis, something like that

the opener i use on hard switches (target pre-bleeded with hemo):
redirect-ks-shd-ambush-ambush-evis-mfd-evis, usually dead by this point, if not, i usually do cs if dd, garrote if healer

#37 PriestRSC

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 09:59 AM

I may be late to the party, but I do not run the hemo glyph.

premed->snd->cheap shot->rupture->MFD->evic->stab/hemo 'till kidney

100k damage on melee. More if you get a crit.

Idk, it works well for me :S

We swap casters so generally garrote is up, otherwise I swap with cheap shot->rupture

Edited by PriestRSC, 29 December 2013 - 10:04 AM.


#38 seizureman18

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 01:32 PM

View PostPriestRSC, on 29 December 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

I may be late to the party, but I do not run the hemo glyph.

premed->snd->cheap shot->rupture->MFD->evic->stab/hemo 'till kidney

100k damage on melee. More if you get a crit.

Idk, it works well for me :S

We swap casters so generally garrote is up, otherwise I swap with cheap shot->rupture

Should go for an Ambush after the Rupture while you have Subterfuge up. You might as well run Shadow Focus if you arent going to take advantage of your stealth bar.

#39 varellz

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 02:31 PM

i dont like ambush in subterfuge 60 energy feels bad

#40 PriestRSC

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 08:48 PM

View Postseizureman18, on 29 December 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

Should go for an Ambush after the Rupture while you have Subterfuge up. You might as well run Shadow Focus if you arent going to take advantage of your stealth bar.

That opener changes depending on what I'm against, but a lot of the time I garrote->cheap shot mages, or I garrote->ambush->ambush->kidney etc. That opener is just one of the ones I use. Also as others have stated before, 60 energy is a lot, and I usually dance in our openers after subterfuge anyways. Sometimes it'll be more like:

premed->snd->sap->garrote so sap doesn't break->cheap shot->evic->MFD evic->dance ambush until kidney is back->damage.

Obviously this doesn't matter since every team under the moon will try to stop your opener, I usually get just the evic->MFD evic before I get scattered/feared/shockwaved etc.

Edited by PriestRSC, 29 December 2013 - 08:57 PM.





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