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Paladin Balance OP Nerf Ret Pally Underpower

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#221 Feliclandelo

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:45 PM

^^ Atleast what I tried to say.

View PostVezi, on 13 December 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

i dont know whi people raging on luminant, its good ret paladin, all people flaming luminant try to play ret and shut up please.

Never said he wasn't. The class is still easy to play.

Edited by Feliclandelo, 13 December 2013 - 03:46 PM.


#222 zenton

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 06:00 PM

Although I agree with the most you said about the somewhat low ret skillcap there are still some minor things - prefreedom novas / frostjaw, cc-avoid sac, precast auramastery - but the problem is that these are almost non-factor. Just like maxrange garrote for rogues these days. Most classes lost many of these minor, skillcapped features (judgement / seal dance, paladin and warrior (and in tbc, even rogue) weapon switch etc) and we paladins are left in a position where the skillcap is cut and there are situations where you can't do anything better. Also in the current state of the game I doubt there could be changes made toward the old wotlk style.

Saying that, I would love to see a spell similar to dota Repel, wich negotes the next spell / ability casted on the target, preferably working on mid-air spells. This would increase the skillcap to somewhere of the old vanish (wich, arguably was one of the most skillcapped mechanics in the game along with the mini-game around vanishing stuff / 'stuffing' out vanish). And, I would also love to see some delayed abilities like Sun Strike or Lina stun (also from dota). And please, remove GoAK.

#223 Dahjy

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 05:19 PM

this thread is aids
Twitch.tv/Dahjy  WW monk / Ret arena/rbgs

#224 Hankx

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 09:44 PM

i know right?

#225 Voidbringer

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 02:58 PM

I still enjoy helping my friends cap in 2v2 as a ret (super competitive and important - I know). That's pretty much the only thing you can do effectively without putting way too much effort and turtling 3 times more than most other classes. It's a bit sad...but it's Blizzard. Is anybody surprised?

I foresee huge buffs for Retri, Spriest and Feral in WOD so hang in there;).
"There is nothing so uncommon as common sense"

#226 Feliclandelo

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 04:24 PM

This thread is aids because people who play Ret apperently can't admit how dogshit/retardedly easy the class currently is.

/thread

#227 Thazable

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 06:05 PM

Playing ret to fullest potential is obv kinda easy, the sad thing is if you aren't stupid and use your stuff you're probably instant one of the top 50 rets on this planet. Another sad thing is that people don't seem to understand what a skillcap is, right now there is almost no difference between a 2.2k ret and the highest rated rets, but there obv is a huge difference between a 2.2k warrior and the highest rated warriors for example. It may take less skill on a warrior to be as efficient as a pretty good ret, but that doesn't mean warriors have a lower skillcap, the only thing it shows is that getting rating as ret compared to other classes is pretty hard because rets aren't as strong and even if you're playing around the skillcap of rets someone who is playing something different but is not "skillcapped" is capable of replacing you kinda easily.
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#228 Seraphuslol

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 06:30 PM

View PostThazable, on 02 January 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

Playing ret to fullest potential is obv kinda easy, the sad thing is if you aren't stupid and use your stuff you're probably instant one of the top 50 rets on this planet. Another sad thing is that people don't seem to understand what a skillcap is, right now there is almost no difference between a 2.2k ret and the highest rated rets, but there obv is a huge difference between a 2.2k warrior and the highest rated warriors for example. It may take less skill on a warrior to be as efficient as a pretty good ret, but that doesn't mean warriors have a lower skillcap, the only thing it shows is that getting rating as ret compared to other classes is pretty hard because rets aren't as strong and even if you're playing around the skillcap of rets someone who is playing something different but is not "skillcapped" is capable of replacing you kinda easily.

Are we playing the same game?
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#229 Feliclandelo

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 06:53 PM

Seraphus I'm pretty sure you understod his point. No need to be a douchebag for the sake of it.

#230 Thazable

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 06:53 PM

Not sure if you have to ask this.
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#231 Isumi

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:14 PM

View PostThazable, on 02 January 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

Playing ret to fullest potential is obv kinda easy

pretty sure vanguards is so much better than all the other rets, so thats completly wrong.

#232 Thazable

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:22 PM

Then maybe vanguards should play more and start to set new standarts for rets like every season before but as long as this doesn't happen he isn't more than a 2.4k rated ret this season and thats about it.
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#233 Feliclandelo

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:27 PM

View PostIsumi, on 02 January 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

pretty sure vanguards is so much better than all the other rets, so thats completly wrong.

You saw him play when he was active and competing for r1? It was the same play you could see from most Rets at those ratings. Difference was teamplay/setup and the fact he was streaming (just like people call it Vanguards cleave when it was played before he even began to PvP or had gotten his first Gladiator title).

#234 Seraphuslol

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:29 PM

View PostIsumi, on 02 January 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

pretty sure vanguards is so much better than all the other rets, so thats completly wrong.

Vanguards isnt the highest rated ret atm.

EDIT: And on AJ, people see rating as the ultimate indicator of skill.

Edited by Seraphuslol, 02 January 2014 - 08:29 PM.

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#235 Hippopotamus

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:37 PM

View PostFeliclandelo, on 13 December 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

^^ Atleast what I tried to say.



Never said he wasn't. The class is still easy to play.
Yeah go ahead and play a ret into all the KFC's that que right now

#236 Isumi

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:57 PM

View PostSeraphuslol, on 02 January 2014 - 08:29 PM, said:

Vanguards isnt the highest rated ret atm.

EDIT: And on AJ, people see rating as the ultimate indicator of skill.

but hes the best by far i don't say this because of his ratings.

I played with an ret this season 2,4+ and i saw vanguards streaming and his dmg/support for his mates/ awareness is by far the best of all rets.

#237 Feliclandelo

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 09:32 PM

Well atleast you played with 1 ret that you can easily compare the rest of the rets to.

Seems legit.

#238 Hankx

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 09:57 PM

Can anyone plz stop with "Ret is easy shit and ret is not easy shit"? WHO CARES? AM TALKING ABOUT THE "SHIT" HERE NOT THE EASY OR THE HARD SHIT FFS!

#239 Thazable

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 10:47 PM

To come back to topic a bit, right now replacing a ret with another melee is just way to easy since you don't really deliver gamebreaking abilities wich will save your team in a situation where nothing else would help. Ofc HoS and HoP come in kinda handy but you will find yourself in situations where you just have to throw all stuff you have around to barely live. Now people could say wow dude you can just HoP your shaman if melees train him and he'll be fine, ye that is kinda true but first HoP is easily purged by lots of classes and second there are abilities in this game with a way lower CD wich also could save the situation, some simple examples are probably shockwave to stop the melees for a couple seconds or a RoF your shaman can walk through, assuming he isn't sitting a stun himself and can't walk. Now if we go back in time a bit to lets say wrath of the lich king, you will see rets didn't have a lot of stuff they have now, best example: Rebuke. On the other hand we lost Judgement of Justice wich came in pretty handy and ofc we will never forget, we could freedom out of stuns, honestly that stuff was pretty overpowered and everybody knew it, but that was some special unique tool we could use to secure special situations. So what I'm trying to say right now isn't give me back the ability to freedom stuns, because there are enough second trinkets in this game already, but what I'm saying is: If they aren't going to nerf ret paladins CD stacking and compensate with real sustain damage for that they need to give ret paladins some tools wich make them worth picking over another melee in some cases but not in every case because that would be overpowered again and again.

Please don't misunderstand me.
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#240 Escritoire

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 05:02 AM

First things first.

Felic is completely wrong on Ret having the same skillcap as Warrior. Let's begin with a decent rated Ret that has macros for FoL, WoG, BoP, Freedom, and Sac. That is 15 different keys to use, in addition to the normal damage rotation that Rets use. Even though it may not be hard to press a modifier macro, that is still an additional 15+ different keys required for Ret's to be good, in addition to performing their main role, which is damage.

Secondly, to counter Felic, other than getting an intervene or instant-cast  CC with reflect (which requires luck, in addition to a shitty opponent, on top of skill), all team utility warriors bring is reactive. Health gets low? Rallying Cry. Healer gets scattered? Mass Spell Reflect. Mage casting poly? Spell reflect. That is as reactive as a paladin sacing a CC.

The difference is that Paladin's CD's are much heavier, and oftentimes have drawbacks. As a warrior you reflect whenever you can reflect a cc. 25 second cooldown, 1 minute on mass. Assuming you are facing a team that has reflectable cc, as a warrior you should be reflecting every possible cc. It becomes part of the rotation as a CC deterrent.

Compare to a Paladin's utility spells, which oftentimes have an added component of difficulty involved in their use. Do you use Sac to remove a CC or prevent a teammate's death? Do you BoP to remove a Physical CC and risk Forbearance or to save a dying teammate? Warrior utility is ALWAYS done defensively, and (outside of SOME intervenes) always done reactively (despite Felic's attempts at painting them as proactive skills).

I'm not going to sit here and say that a Burst Wings Macro is hard to press, because it's not. And I understand your comparison of player vs class skill. However, Ret simply has more buttons, and those buttons are more situational in their use. In addition, the drawback to misusing a Ret ability is significantly more impactful than a Warrior's.

As to thinking anyone could achieve a Vanguards rating based on comp/teamplay alone, you are wrong, sadly. Despite how childishly Luminant put it, player skill is harder to achieve on a Ret than a warrior. Having more to do on a Ret, you are required to be aware of teammate health and debuffs, in addition to maintaining CC chains and dealing damage. Warriors rarely need to pay attention to teammate health, and using Reflects isn't so much watching teammates as it is watching the enemy, which they do anyways while dealing damage.

As such, I respectfully disagree with your statement that Ret has a low skill cap.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Paladin, Balance, OP, Nerf, Ret, Pally, Underpower

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