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#41 Z4muZ

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 03:51 PM

View PostROKMODE, on 25 October 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

It would make sense if it were mop, when the only tournament is blizzcon, but you can't critique the history of rogue tournament success and leave out the continuous great placings from orangemarmalade and friends, woundman, kalimist, etc.

I don't think it really has to do with rogues not being a good tournament class. Imo, he is just looking into it too much when there really isn't a great reason except a rogue just didn't win.
I mean, marm on AT could win almost any wotlk tourney on rogue, and rogues were fucking great in cata. It is what it is, but it's not really because of outdated mechanics. Last patch, it seemed more like rogues just sucked, which is obviously going to be a hindrance but even then, specific rogues were placing on the ladder and probably could have transitively done well in tournaments. Wow tournaments aren't really the best indicator of balance either since the pool of players is so small.

Hey, I was merely pointing out the misunderstanding in the reference.

Plus, yes. Whilst I've literally only played a week worth of arena in MoP (I leveled in case 6.0 might look promising), it's clear the Rogue niche is completely dismissed at this point. The reason Marm or any other player for that matter will be successful playing on WotLK AT is derived from the understanding of the theoretical (and proper, if you ask me) limitations and advantages of Rogues, i.e. being extremely setup oriented.

For every time you and your team made a successful play in the form of cross CC whilst you (the Rogue) started pooling energy beforehand and had kidney available -- you'd get rewarded. If you do that often enough (e.g. every 2nd kidney or so, so you burst let's say twice a minute instead of once a minute, i.e. into skin or other defensive cooldown which becomes available if you don't burst properly often enough), you'd eventually run the opposing team out of cooldowns and land a kill.

On the downside, you are rightfully useless in terms of offensive play outside of these windows against most classes.

Late WotLK play brings out the best of Rogues while putting an emphasis on rewarding good play (coordinated burst), and punishing bad play (trying to out-muscle other melees, kicking every single spell, bad energy management). Whilst some of this still applies today, the line between bad and good play has greatly diminished. You aren't rewarded that much for good play, and Blizzard continuously tried (and succeeded) buffing Rogue survivability which made the class in my opinion much less interesting to play, but also inadvertently forced nerfs in niche departments of the class.

Cata was pretty much the beginning of the end. After buying and returning to the game, I pretty much felt no incentive to play since it literally felt too easy and I don't care that much about titles to begin with.

Edited by Z4muZ, 25 October 2013 - 03:57 PM.

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#42 Tsx

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 03:58 PM

View PostUrbandurban, on 25 October 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Read it again. I said specifically in a tournament setting, where you cant queue dodge or do other stupid things to avoid facing a counter. For every team with a melee there's a wiz that's better. The fact that warriors are really fucking stupid right now and still people decide not to play it in BlizzCon kind of proves my point.
no warriors will play in blizzcon is because the tourmanet was up in tyrranical and in tyrranical season warriors were one of the worst classes, u have a brain for a reason, so think before u talk smartass

#43 Railander

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 05:24 PM

View PostUrbandurban, on 25 October 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Read it again. I said specifically in a tournament setting, where you cant queue dodge or do other stupid things to avoid facing a counter. For every team with a melee there's a wiz that's better. The fact that warriors are really fucking stupid right now and still people decide not to play it in BlizzCon kind of proves my point.
you are only right about ladder being stupid since, just like you said, you can dodge queue etc.
but blizcon also doesnt mean shit besides having a reasonable prize pool. players are chosen from TR (which is shittier than ladder, but less abused) and players cant even use mods, decreasing player maximum performance.

the only GOOD measure of comps are from player-held tournaments. participants are hand picked instead of some TR classification shit, and can use any mods they want, not to mention there usually is a big pool size of players rather than the mediocre 8 teams from blizzcon.

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#44 Shawir

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 05:28 PM

u guys put so much words in ur posts jesus shut the fuck up

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#45 Glink

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 05:32 PM

Im rooting for Team Taiwon / Kwok.
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#46 Z4muZ

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 05:34 PM

View PostShawir, on 25 October 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

u guys put so much words in ur posts jesus shut the fuck up

wow

much words

how read
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#47 Mirionx

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 05:47 PM

View PostLapeane, on 25 October 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

It's not like that really, vs good casters you can't just pop at the start and 'oma gad maybe i win'. You should know it as hpala ;o + ye last season LSD when if you had luck as Ele you could proc some one down from 80-90% without CDs so skill?
The point is if cleave is OP you lose always some matches, you cant yolo 80-0 like baten did 2820+ on Misery with LSD, no game lost. You always lose some, and when you play caster comp like god, you won't lose anything. Control, support etc, you can literally do score to 0. That's the point.

If you honestly think casters can just go clean sweep a ladder you're just delusional :x

#48 mirox

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 05:56 PM

View PostROKMODE, on 25 October 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

It would make sense if it were mop, when the only tournament is blizzcon, but you can't critique the history of rogue tournament success and leave out the continuous great placings from orangemarmalade and friends, woundman, kalimist, etc.

I don't think it really has to do with rogues not being a good tournament class. Imo, he is just looking into it too much when there really isn't a great reason except a rogue just didn't win.
I mean, marm on AT could win almost any wotlk tourney on rogue, and rogues were fucking great in cata. It is what it is, but it's not really because of outdated mechanics. Last patch, it seemed more like rogues just sucked, which is obviously going to be a hindrance but even then, specific rogues were placing on the ladder and probably could have transitively done well in tournaments. Wow tournaments aren't really the best indicator of balance either since the pool of players is so small.

But if you think about it, it actually is because rogues are so outdated and their damage is so predictable that any tournament level player can anticipate and counter it with ease. Even in cata, when rogues were retarded (mainly because of vial and daggers, but only rogues who had 2 chars one with HC gear and daggers and one with out can understand this), no rogue even got close to winning Blizzcon. I think it was something like RLS vs double shaman (enh/resto/lock) that knocked RLS out of the tournament. The point is, rogue damage is way,way easier to stop than any other class.

OT: Jungyup has seen american girls with his own eyes so he wont be playing and that means that some sort of wiz cleave will win. Simply because of retarded spammable CC and hybrid offheals.

#49 Regent

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 06:21 PM

Where is Lord Veev when you need him...

#50 Z4muZ

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 06:23 PM

View Postmirox, on 25 October 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

But if you think about it, it actually is because rogues are so outdated and their damage is so predictable that any tournament level player can anticipate and counter it with ease..

The point being and difference is that for good play in WotLK (let alone Cata), you were rewarded without being required to use cooldowns. WotLK cross CC and deep/kidney with full bar were almost certain to reward you. Even if you weren't getting a kill or even a defensive cooldown, you'd gain momentum which in the vast majority, if held on to by frequently setting up bursts, would eventually translate to a win, regardless of which comp you were playing against.

In MoP, not only you're basically required to use at least dance for momentum/pressure, classes simply have a huge amount of ways to mitigate a 1 minute cooldown. Even if you make sure your dances are the least peelable as possible, (always cross cc'ing etc), you may gain momentum, but you're not going to hold on to it since the next window you're able to capitalize again on is at best a minute away (excluding clutch play).

Edited by Z4muZ, 25 October 2013 - 06:24 PM.

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#51 frigidclam

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 06:28 PM

View Postmirox, on 25 October 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

The point is, rogue damage is way,way easier to stop than any other class.

You are so biased. Its really easy to stop something you cant even see for 4 seconds while your healer gets dropped to 30% in that time.....stopping garrote>kidney>para is so much easier then just LOSing a ele or hunter let me tell you. You're delusional if you don't think rogue burst is insane and incredibility hard to counter

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 06:36 PM

The reason a rogue has never won blizzcon is purely luck. Blizzcon/qualifiers/regionals have just happened at times when rogues were not their strongest. If blizzcon happened during the first half of s13, a rogue might have won, if it happened in s11, a rogue might have won it, exc exc.

If the class mechanics were outdated and the class was just bad at high levels because of it, you wouldn't see seasons where they are really really strong. It's just the nature of a game like wow where a class/spec is going to go through highs and lows, I'm not saying it should be like that, but thats how it is.

Also
rogues are fine right now

Edited by Radejjj, 25 October 2013 - 06:42 PM.


#53 asdjbasf122

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 06:53 PM

I know this wouldn't happen but lets say a team wanted to queue triple warrior would they be allowed or do you have to healer in the comp?

#54 Glink

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 07:11 PM

View Postmirox, on 25 October 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

But if you think about it, it actually is because rogues are so outdated and their damage is so predictable that any tournament level player can anticipate and counter it with ease. Even in cata, when rogues were retarded (mainly because of vial and daggers, but only rogues who had 2 chars one with HC gear and daggers and one with out can understand this), no rogue even got close to winning Blizzcon. I think it was something like RLS vs double shaman (enh/resto/lock) that knocked RLS out of the tournament. The point is, rogue damage is way,way easier to stop than any other class.
Rogues aren't outdated... a rogue can single handedly lockdown a team with their CC, they have amazing burst, decent survivability now, and lots of utility. The only thing rogues lack is mobility, but that would make them OP at this point. If you're good at rogue you can get high rated almost any season.

Coming from a rogue main.

Edited by Glink, 25 October 2013 - 07:12 PM.

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#55 Tsx

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 07:14 PM

View Postfrigidclam, on 25 October 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

You are so biased. Its really easy to stop something you cant even see for 4 seconds while your healer gets dropped to 30% in that time.....stopping garrote>kidney>para is so much easier then just LOSing a ele or hunter let me tell you. You're delusional if you don't think rogue burst is insane and incredibility hard to counter
rogue burst is insane?what kind of game do u play in?are 20k ambushes an insane burst?this game has been out of nearly 10 years and u still dont have a clue .... surprised there are still ppl like u that play this game.

#56 Tsx

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 07:17 PM

View PostRadejjj, on 25 October 2013 - 06:36 PM, said:

The reason a rogue has never won blizzcon is purely luck. Blizzcon/qualifiers/regionals have just happened at times when rogues were not their strongest. If blizzcon happened during the first half of s13, a rogue might have won, if it happened in s11, a rogue might have won it, exc exc.

If the class mechanics were outdated and the class was just bad at high levels because of it, you wouldn't see seasons where they are really really strong. It's just the nature of a game like wow where a class/spec is going to go through highs and lows, I'm not saying it should be like that, but thats how it is.

Also
rogues are fine right now
first half of s13. Tell me mr ''rogues were op back in s13'' , how many rogue comps did u see in 5.2? 3? rmp, thug and rps.Is an ''op'' class supposed to be able to play only 3 comps which 1 of the 3 has to put some effort to succeed?(talking about rmp).U cant say rogues were op cuz they could get past 2.5 with 3 comps. Sure they were good, sure they were viable, and if i remember correctly , there were so few rogues in most of the ladders past 2.5, and they played either thug or rps.Get ur facts straight before u start calling a class overpowered.

#57 frigidclam

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 07:18 PM

View PostYarmyxx, on 25 October 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

rogue burst is insane?what kind of game do u play in?are 20k ambushes an insane burst?this game has been out of nearly 10 years and u still dont have a clue .... surprised there are still ppl like u that play this game.

I watch top healers like Cdew and Sodah get soloed by rogues...watch pika or vaze solo healers in a kidney....suprised there are still ppl like you that spew garbage about shit they have no idea about obviously...

#58 Schvetolga

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 07:22 PM

View PostYarmyxx, on 25 October 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

no warriors will play in blizzcon is because the tourmanet was up in tyrranical and in tyrranical season warriors were one of the worst classes, u have a brain for a reason, so think before u talk smartass

The tournament itself is played in 5.4, not 5.3. And it's the players that are invited, not the class, no? Think before you speak.
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#59 Glink

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 07:24 PM

View PostYarmyxx, on 25 October 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

first half of s13. Tell me mr ''rogues were op back in s13'' , how many rogue comps did u see in 5.2? 3? rmp, thug and rps.Is an ''op'' class supposed to be able to play only 3 comps which 1 of the 3 has to put some effort to succeed?(talking about rmp).U cant say rogues were op cuz they could get past 2.5 with 3 comps. Sure they were good, sure they were viable, and if i remember correctly , there were so few rogues in most of the ladders past 2.5, and they played either thug or rps.Get ur facts straight before u start calling a class overpowered.
You talk like an idiot just saying.
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#60 Z4muZ

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 07:57 PM

View PostGlink, on 25 October 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

Rogues aren't outdated... a rogue can single handedly lockdown a team with their CC
Outside of dance Rogue off target control is hardly anything to write home about at the current state of the game.

View PostGlink, on 25 October 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

they have amazing burst
Amazing openers, when stars are almost bound to align and there's unavoidable cross cc. Outside of that, dance with no procs is hardly amazing and is on a 1 minute cooldown.

View PostGlink, on 25 October 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

If you're good at rogue you can get high rated almost any season.

Quite a misconception. Rogue always been a support first class. A good Rogue is good when he knows how to stir and keep momentum in favor of his team. There were seasons that even if Jesus was to play the Rogue, if the other DPS wasn't good, you wouldn't beat good teams.

This seasons seem to be like one of those, where Rogues need to heavily rely on the other DPS, whilst pretty much be interchangeable even while playing close to flawless.
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