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#261 Ezyo1000

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 09:16 AM

View PostPinka, on 26 November 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Patch 5.4.2 Warrior Changes
We don't feel that Warrior damage output itself is the issue. It's strong, but not out of line compared to other classes. We think the issue lies with mobility, and the Warrior's ability to keep that constant pressure going. That's why we decided to revert the 5.4 Intervene change in 5.4.2 and move the root break back to Safeguard. Once we've had a chance to see how that affects things, we'll be able to decide if any further changes are necessary.

I Think they are right. I mean last season we could have all the uptime of the game. And still people would laugh in our faces due to our dmg. A very long time ago uptime was considered a skill thing.

Uptime = dmg. So with this we basicly got a indirect damage nerf. Without hurting pve. So it's either 2 reflects but no root break. Or root break but only 1 reflect.

They actually solved the issue with this. Sure double interrupt is still there. But i think double reflect was the biggest issue.

What if they did this instead:


1. Put disrupting shout on a 20 sec cd, make it a targettable (Or leave as an AoE) interrupt that locks the target out of a school for 6 sec if you successfully interrupt the spell, However, using Disrupting shout puts Pummel on cd and vise versa.

So now you have a risk vs reward system in place. "Do i go for the fast pummel so i can interrupt more often? Or Do i go for the disrupting shout which gives a longer lockout and could possibly be the lockout needed to score a kill?"

2. Using Spell reflect or Mass Spell Reflect Locks you out of using the other reflect for 10-15 sec. This brings a level skill into play, Do i Use Spell Reflect on myself to stop the incoming cc/damage on myself and Possibly not have MSR up for my partner in the next few globals? Or do i eat the cc/damage and have my partner Dispel/heal me so that i can keep them out of cc?

These changes also allow casters some breath room and allow them to get some casts off if the warrior doesn't manage his utility correctly.

3. Remove Shouts from Bladestorm and stop Bladestorm from re-equipping your weapon if you have already been disarmed. This is just stupid, Its already unpeelable as it is we dont need offensive control added onto it.

I Disagree that blizz made the right choice here, sure it will solve some issues that people had with warriors but forcing us into Sg again and making it Very punishing (and it will be with because mages and druids benefit the most from this change) to take Vigilance or MSR due to sitting in a root for extended periods of time isn't the answer. They could up the cd on intervene to 35-40 sec that way people can actually root the warrior and he would have to sit it for awhile or spec SG for the 30 sec cd root break.

Making these changes and i think everyone would win. Warriors still have utility they bring to the team and are not mindless damage bots, and casters are rewarded if they juke the warrior by being able to cast.

#262 Pinka

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:07 AM

I think losing MSR is fine. Tbh. Safeguard is not that bad.
MSR is still effective in places were multiple spells are launched at the same time 5s/ rbg. Or when you fight people who have no roots.
Something in the way of dk, hpala, lock.
It was pretty stupid warrs were hard to stop through roots and directed cc alike. There must be a way to stop a class from doing what they want.
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#263 Ezyo1000

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 04:38 PM

View PostPinka, on 27 November 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

I think losing MSR is fine. Tbh. Safeguard is not that bad.
MSR is still effective in places were multiple spells are launched at the same time 5s/ rbg. Or when you fight people who have no roots.
Something in the way of dk, hpala, lock.
It was pretty stupid warrs were hard to stop through roots and directed cc alike. There must be a way to stop a class from doing what they want.

There is a way, Its by punishing them for improper use of their cds. as its been said, intervene breaking roots baseline made SG practically useless, However, making Sg mandatory for the majority of the fights in arena (Lets be honest here the chances of running into dk/lock/hpal is very slim) your going to be fighting a class with a reliable root on a short cd isn't going to make it better either, Its going to be alot of caster cleaves, WMD/RMD, Or Mage/x/x. So instead of taking away group utility that warriors sorely needed, Why not just make using that utility actually require some thought behind it.

Wars need to be able to be peeled. But They should also be able able to provide some utility for their partners, and losing MSR and Vig unless fighting very specific comps that you most likely won't run into very often, And really there are better things to do, bring back the risk vs reward if blizz thinks we need two pummels, make only one useable at a time, Make Reflects have a cd in between usage so you can't just  use them whenever you please, but have to time them and have the possibility of getting it juked and not having the other available for a time. Make intervene baseline a 35-40 sec cd So warriors CAN be rooted.

I think overall this will fix the issue with warriors, but it does so by making warriors one dimensional again, There isn't much in the skill department to separate good warriors from the bad, MSR was one of the few abilities that did that.

#264 Schvetolga

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 06:13 PM

View PostEzyo1000, on 27 November 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

There is a way, Its by punishing them for improper use of their cds. as its been said, intervene breaking roots baseline made SG practically useless, However, making Sg mandatory for the majority of the fights in arena (Lets be honest here the chances of running into dk/lock/hpal is very slim) your going to be fighting a class with a reliable root on a short cd isn't going to make it better either, Its going to be alot of caster cleaves, WMD/RMD, Or Mage/x/x. So instead of taking away group utility that warriors sorely needed, Why not just make using that utility actually require some thought behind it.

Wars need to be able to be peeled. But They should also be able able to provide some utility for their partners, and losing MSR and Vig unless fighting very specific comps that you most likely won't run into very often, And really there are better things to do, bring back the risk vs reward if blizz thinks we need two pummels, make only one useable at a time, Make Reflects have a cd in between usage so you can't just  use them whenever you please, but have to time them and have the possibility of getting it juked and not having the other available for a time. Make intervene baseline a 35-40 sec cd So warriors CAN be rooted.

I think overall this will fix the issue with warriors, but it does so by making warriors one dimensional again, There isn't much in the skill department to separate good warriors from the bad, MSR was one of the few abilities that did that.

So you're saying that the only thing that made a warrior good was proper use of MSR? Geez, has it really come to this? In that case it's really fucking sad. However, I do not believe this is the case. The class is quite mongo atm but I can atleast notice there's a damage difference if I face top warriors compared to 2k rated rerolls.

Warriors have enough in the utility department with intervene and the stuns/fears. If you want warriors to have more utility you have to get rid of some of the defensives. Warrior defensives are probably the best in the game already of any melee class.
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#265 Hackattack3

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 06:57 PM

View PostEzyo1000, on 27 November 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

What if they did this instead:


1. Put disrupting shout on a 20 sec cd, make it a targettable (Or leave as an AoE) interrupt that locks the target out of a school for 6 sec if you successfully interrupt the spell, However, using Disrupting shout puts Pummel on cd and vise versa.

So now you have a risk vs reward system in place. "Do i go for the fast pummel so i can interrupt more often? Or Do i go for the disrupting shout which gives a longer lockout and could possibly be the lockout needed to score a kill?"

2. Using Spell reflect or Mass Spell Reflect Locks you out of using the other reflect for 10-15 sec. This brings a level skill into play, Do i Use Spell Reflect on myself to stop the incoming cc/damage on myself and Possibly not have MSR up for my partner in the next few globals? Or do i eat the cc/damage and have my partner Dispel/heal me so that i can keep them out of cc?

These changes also allow casters some breath room and allow them to get some casts off if the warrior doesn't manage his utility correctly.

3. Remove Shouts from Bladestorm and stop Bladestorm from re-equipping your weapon if you have already been disarmed. This is just stupid, Its already unpeelable as it is we dont need offensive control added onto it.

I Disagree that blizz made the right choice here, sure it will solve some issues that people had with warriors but forcing us into Sg again and making it Very punishing (and it will be with because mages and druids benefit the most from this change) to take Vigilance or MSR due to sitting in a root for extended periods of time isn't the answer. They could up the cd on intervene to 35-40 sec that way people can actually root the warrior and he would have to sit it for awhile or spec SG for the 30 sec cd root break.

Making these changes and i think everyone would win. Warriors still have utility they bring to the team and are not mindless damage bots, and casters are rewarded if they juke the warrior by being able to cast.

1.  Insane request.  So you want the best lockout in the game?  A 20 sec CD aoe silence that locks out for 6 sec?  Why would you even need pummel at that point.  That would make the ability better than mage, warlock, and hunter silences due to aoe effect.  Also shorter Cd.

Pummel CD is too short to begin with, let's start there and make disrupting shout not useable while bladestorming.

2.  The way to add skill to spell reflect is to increase the cooldown to 40-45 sec.  Similar to what they did with warlock gates.  At 25 sec, the warrior can make plenty of mistakes and reflect bullshit, but it doesn't matter b/c it will be up again soon.

Spell reflect and temporal shield both suffer from the same problem, the CD is wayy too short which does not punish poor usage.  No one calls out "temp shield down!" go on mage b/c it's back up in 20 ish sec.  Sure players can use spell reflect and temp shield in very skillful ways with good timing to avoid cc and damage, but the short CD does not punish poor usage and play.

3.  This is obvious that I think mostly everyone agrees with.


I think the intervene change is great, provides an option for warriors based off who they are facing.  Many classes have to make talent/glyph decisions before the gates open.  Warlocks swap blood horror and unbound will based on comp, why should warriors be any different?


I think you are grossly undervaluing safeguard.  Even with intervene revert, how could you possibly sit in a full root as a warrior with safeguard?

#266 Ezyo1000

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 08:15 PM

View PostUrbandurban, on 27 November 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

So you're saying that the only thing that made a warrior good was proper use of MSR? Geez, has it really come to this? In that case it's really fucking sad. However, I do not believe this is the case. The class is quite mongo atm but I can atleast notice there's a damage difference if I face top warriors compared to 2k rated rerolls.

Warriors have enough in the utility department with intervene and the stuns/fears. If you want warriors to have more utility you have to get rid of some of the defensives. Warrior defensives are probably the best in the game already of any melee class.

Yes, warriors are easy to play and there isnt much to differentiate between a good war and a bad war, MSR Is one if those abilities that

promotes some skillful play because there is alot of different ways to make use of it other then just using it on the warrior himself.

And i think wars could stand to lose the ability to wall while reck is up (Up until like 5.3, wall would be on cd for the duration of reck).

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1.  Insane request.  So you want the best lockout in the game?  A 20 sec CD aoe silence that locks out for 6 sec?  Why would you even need pummel at that point.  That would make the ability better than mage, warlock, and hunter silences due to aoe effect.  Also shorter Cd.

Pummel CD is too short to begin with, let's start there and make disrupting shout not useable while bladestorming.


Maybe you should re-read what i said/ Read what d shout actually does. Disrupting Shout is an interrupt, not a silence and nowhere in my post did i say it should silence and interrupt, so please dont put words in my mouth. What i said was DS could be a interrupt on a 20 sec cd that is a 6 sec lock out, on top of that, Pummel goes on cd as well, (Basically its like how it was in wrath with pummel and shield bash, SB had a longer lockout but it also had a longer cd so there was a greater risk and reward for proper use/misuse.

Thats also why i said make it a targettable Interrupt like pummel if they AoE portion is too strong (most likely would be). And incase you have forgetten, interrupts used to be on 10 sec cds back when casters actually had to cast so i dont see how this would be OP.

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2.  The way to add skill to spell reflect is to increase the cooldown to 40-45 sec.  Similar to what they did with warlock gates.  At 25 sec, the warrior can make plenty of mistakes and reflect bullshit, but it doesn't matter b/c it will be up again soon.

Spell reflect and temporal shield both suffer from the same problem, the CD is wayy too short which does not punish poor usage.  No one calls out "temp shield down!" go on mage b/c it's back up in 20 ish sec.  Sure players can use spell reflect and temp shield in very skillful ways with good timing to avoid cc and damage, but the short CD does not punish poor usage and play.

This Falls into the same line as pummel, SR used to be on a 10 sec cd back when casters had to cast and the nerf to 25 sec was bad enough, it doesnt need to be increased any more. And Temp Shield is too strong because it ignores BF



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I think the intervene change is great, provides an option for warriors based off who they are facing.  Many classes have to make talent/glyph decisions before the gates open.  Warlocks swap blood horror and unbound will based on comp, why should warriors be any different?


I think you are grossly undervaluing safeguard.  Even with intervene revert, how could you possibly sit in a full root as a warrior with safeguard?

You do know that warriors had been forced for pretty much all of MoP right? I know how good SG is and i also know to that the majority of the time, when there is a class that has a root available on a short cd, that SG was mainly used to break out of roots and not for the DR effect. Especially this patch with how good mages and druids are, this intervene revert benefits them the most And Warriors wont have much choice to switch between talents with the intervene revert. right now how you would spec would be:

Vigilance for melee cleaves: MSR for Spell cleaves/hunter comps. And MSR/Vigilance for W/M/X (depending on the healer)

Thats much more variety then whats going to happen with this revert. it will most likely be SG 90% of the time.

#267 shunke

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:52 PM

Disrupting shout doesnt silence, is 40s CD.
Ring of Peace silences when you start casting, 40s CD.

#268 Pinka

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 12:33 AM

And rlly. The safeguard mini shieldwall ain't bad either. It is still great to intervene your partners with. Especially when you know most of the high burst is done in 6 sec windows when people still have stacked resources /procs / colossus smash /deep and stuff.
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#269 Zeon

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 09:32 AM

View Postshunke, on 27 November 2013 - 11:52 PM, said:

Disrupting shout doesnt silence, is 40s CD.
Ring of Peace silences when you start casting, 40s CD.
"But monks dont kill me." Thats why Ring of Peace is much worse than DS, fists are just pathetic if we compare them with shockwave etc... Its simple logic of an idiot.

Remove DS already. It will just make all this crybabies look stupid because lets face it, it will not change much, only make warrior even easier to play.

#270 Xerox

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 09:46 AM

What if they just, removed warriors from game? But seriously though, they are really shitting on my parade atm.
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#271 Ezyo1000

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 06:45 PM

View PostPinka, on 28 November 2013 - 12:33 AM, said:

And rlly. The safeguard mini shieldwall ain't bad either. It is still great to intervene your partners with. Especially when you know most of the high burst is done in 6 sec windows when people still have stacked resources /procs / colossus smash /deep and stuff.

its not bad, but i would rather be able to use Vigilance to peel for a partner then have to se my root break to do so.

View PostZeon, on 28 November 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

"But monks dont kill me." Thats why Ring of Peace is much worse than DS, fists are just pathetic if we compare them with shockwave etc... Its simple logic of an idiot.

Remove DS already. It will just make all this crybabies look stupid because lets face it, it will not change much, only make warrior even easier to play.

FoF is better then Swave..

#272 Tankz

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 06:10 PM

So, a few ideas.

Keep the intervene/safeguard change that they're currently making, its good.

Make distrupting shout share a 10 sec CD with pummel, or make it replace pummel and increase the cd to 20 seconds (20 sec aoe interrupt instead of pummel)

Reduce rage cost of PH to 0 please D:

Reduce bleed damage/make armor useful against warriors again.

stuff like that, please.
wat is dis game




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