Jump to content

Photo

Healing Spheres - The Good The Bad And The Ugly


  • Please log in to reply
47 replies to this topic

#1 Primius

Primius
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 354
  • Talents: Mistweaver 1/0/2/0/0/1
  • 2v2: 2039
  • 3v3: 2519
  • 5v5: 1150
  • RBG: 959

Posted 18 October 2013 - 02:52 PM

After a month of the new season, and nearly a year of playing this class, and listening to the feed back of other mistweavers, as well as the community as a whole I have concluded one thing...

Healing Spheres need to be targeted...


If our HoTs are going to be as weak as they are, and healing spheres are what we are forced to rely on in pvp to effectively heal people then they need to be designed to allow this to happen. I am hearing more and more MW talk about using a bot because of latency and targeting issues associated with spheres.

Spheres are powerful but they are only truly effective when healing a select few classes/specs in this game. Trying to heal a hunter or pets with spheres is what nightmares are made of.

I had a situation happen last night where I was playing Thugcleave, and we were up against Survival Hunter/Warrior/Priest.

I get trapped, and hunter on my team is getting trucked. Fast forward to when the trap finally ends...I have limited options. The hunter is low in health near death, and I know the opposing teams hunter has his interrupt back and TFT is on cooldown.

I could have attempted to juke him but hunter would have died, and the risk of getting locked out was to great. So spheres is really the only safe option. The problem is because of latency and just movement I was unable to effectively burst the hunter up with spheres so he died.

If they were targeted when I came out the CC I could have immediately start getting his hps up which is what a Holy Priest would do with Holy Word/PoM/CoH/PWS, or a shaman could do with rip tide/earth shield, healing tide ect..

Having no instant direct heals that are not targeted and/or doesn't require channeling is a major problem with the spec especially with no powerful buffers like PWS/PoM/Renew or Earthshield/Riptide for when we get CCed.

Thoughts??
  • 0

#2 Gohi

Gohi
  • Members
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Kazzak
  • Misery
  • Posts: 9
  • Talents: Affliction 0/2/0/2/2/0

Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:11 PM

Ask hunter to stop moving for 2s?
  • 0

#3 Udderly

Udderly
  • Members
  • Trollclass_name
  • US-Kil'jaeden
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 793
  • Talents:
  • RBG: 1918

Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:34 PM

After a month of the new season, and nearly a year of playing this class, and listening to the feed back of other mistweavers, as well as the community as a whole I have concluded one thing...

Healing Spheres need to be targeted...


If our HoTs are going to be as weak as they are, and healing spheres are what we are forced to rely on in pvp to effectively heal people then they need to be designed to allow this to happen. I am hearing more and more MW talk about using a bot because of latency and targeting issues associated with spheres.

Spheres are powerful but they are only truly effective when healing a select few classes/specs in this game. Trying to heal a hunter or pets with spheres is what nightmares are made of.

I had a situation happen last night where I was playing Thugcleave, and we were up against Survival Hunter/Warrior/Priest.

I get trapped, and hunter on my team is getting trucked. Fast forward to when the trap finally ends...I have limited options. The hunter is low in health near death, and I know the opposing teams hunter has his interrupt back and TFT is on cooldown.

I could have attempted to juke him but hunter would have died, and the risk of getting locked out was to great. So spheres is really the only safe option. The problem is because of latency and just movement I was unable to effectively burst the hunter up with spheres so he died.

If they were targeted when I came out the CC I could have immediately start getting his hps up which is what a Holy Priest would do with Holy Word/PoM/CoH/PWS, or a shaman could do with rip tide/earth shield, healing tide ect..

Having no instant direct heals that are not targeted and/or doesn't require channeling is a major problem with the spec especially with no powerful buffers like PWS/PoM/Renew or Earthshield/Riptide for when we get CCed.

Thoughts??


I think the issue is that Blizzard tried to make a very different play style for a healer so that we didn't end up with a new healing spec that was essentially just a clone of the others with different spell names and animations. The issue is that the playstyle doesn't play particularly well in a practical application. Even in PvE, there isn't really any value in trying to drop spheres on anyone, with the large amount of movement in encounters right now. From what I've seen of our monk healers, they were typically dropping spheres to open the fight and then they had limited use (aside from mastery spheres of course).

I'm not sure if targeted is the right answer - then it just becomes a copy of other healers and homogenizes the class - but I do agree that it's an issue that needs some help. If it's forcing people to use a bot to make a spec competitive that really hasn't been the entire expac then that should be the first sign that there's an issue to Blizzard.
  • 0

#4 Primius

Primius
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 354
  • Talents: Mistweaver 1/0/2/0/0/1
  • 2v2: 2039
  • 3v3: 2519
  • 5v5: 1150
  • RBG: 959

Posted 18 October 2013 - 03:47 PM

I think the issue is that Blizzard tried to make a very different play style for a healer so that we didn't end up with a new healing spec that was essentially just a clone of the others with different spell names and animations. The issue is that the playstyle doesn't play particularly well in a practical application. Even in PvE, there isn't really any value in trying to drop spheres on anyone, with the large amount of movement in encounters right now. From what I've seen of our monk healers, they were typically dropping spheres to open the fight and then they had limited use (aside from mastery spheres of course).

I'm not sure if targeted is the right answer - then it just becomes a copy of other healers and homogenizes the class - but I do agree that it's an issue that needs some help. If it's forcing people to use a bot to make a spec competitive that really hasn't been the entire expac then that should be the first sign that there's an issue to Blizzard.


The problem is being different just for the sake of being different even when it makes us not very good isn't good design. Making spheres targeted still brings their own game play strategy because you can't use only spheres to heal a team. You need to be using hots to buffer, and build tea or you will go hard oom.

HoT+Spheres healing method isn't so much terrible in terms of HPS. It's just very hard to pull off in most comps of lightning fast teammates. It works so well with LSChi because lock/shaman normally just waddle around the map after getting snared making it very easy to heal them.

Trying to heal PHD, or Thug Cleave, or any melee centered comp with spheres is a nightmare, and doesn't work very well at all. Making them targeted would open up the spec to more people, and more comps.
  • 0

#5 Italialol

Italialol
  • Junkies
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • US-Kel'Thuzad
  • Nightfall
  • Posts: 120
  • Talents: Restoration
  • RBG: 2228

Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:44 PM

Spheres can be frustrating to use, however, as of now they're one of the skill defining mechanics that monks have. You can compare them to warrior stance dancing in TBC/WOTLK, removal of which dumbed down the class and made it less rewarding to play imo.
They can increase the trigger radius to make healing spheres easier to use.
  • 0

#6 Primius

Primius
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 354
  • Talents: Mistweaver 1/0/2/0/0/1
  • 2v2: 2039
  • 3v3: 2519
  • 5v5: 1150
  • RBG: 959

Posted 18 October 2013 - 05:49 PM

Spheres can be frustrating to use, however, as of now they're one of the skill defining mechanics that monks have. You can compare them to warrior stance dancing in TBC/WOTLK, removal of which dumbed down the class and made it less rewarding to play imo.
They can increase the trigger radius to make healing spheres easier to use.


Yeah I didn't think about simply increasing the radius. Right now it's 6 yards which is way to small. 8yrds might work 10yrds would be ideal but it would probably have to be done via a pvp set bonus change to protect their precious pve.
  • 0

#7 Udderly

Udderly
  • Members
  • Trollclass_name
  • US-Kil'jaeden
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 793
  • Talents:
  • RBG: 1918

Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:43 PM

The problem is being different just for the sake of being different even when it makes us not very good isn't good design. Making spheres targeted still brings their own game play strategy because you can't use only spheres to heal a team. You need to be using hots to buffer, and build tea or you will go hard oom.

HoT+Spheres healing method isn't so much terrible in terms of HPS. It's just very hard to pull off in most comps of lightning fast teammates. It works so well with LSChi because lock/shaman normally just waddle around the map after getting snared making it very easy to heal them.

Trying to heal PHD, or Thug Cleave, or any melee centered comp with spheres is a nightmare, and doesn't work very well at all. Making them targeted would open up the spec to more people, and more comps.


Maybe I wasn't clear but I agree that it's not good design. I applaud the effort to make it different but it doesn't work very well IMHO. The radius idea is decent, but then how does it decide who to heal? Might make it hard to heal the target you want. And lowest target isn't always the right answer.
  • 0

#8 Primius

Primius
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 354
  • Talents: Mistweaver 1/0/2/0/0/1
  • 2v2: 2039
  • 3v3: 2519
  • 5v5: 1150
  • RBG: 959

Posted 18 October 2013 - 08:53 PM

Maybe I wasn't clear but I agree that it's not good design. I applaud the effort to make it different but it doesn't work very well IMHO. The radius idea is decent, but then how does it decide who to heal? Might make it hard to heal the target you want. And lowest target isn't always the right answer.


Well that doesn't really change anything. Your post pretty much highlights what i was saying in my first post. Prime example is if you are running a melee cleave. 99% of the time both your teammates are on the same target. With the AoE only being 6yrds and both teammates probably taking some form of damage with one taking a ton so often it heals the person that isn't taking much damage even when you place the circle right under or next to the person you really want to heal.

This is a major problem with spheres which is why i think making them targeted and balancing around the mana management of the spec is better, and more interesting gameplay for how the spec is built. They would obviously have to increase the mana cost because one of the main reasons that the cost is so low is because so many times you miss the target you actually want to heal and the orb goes unused, and the mana is spent even though you didn't heal the target you wanted to and the sphere went unused.
  • 0

#9 tofu

tofu
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Illidan
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 51
  • Talents: Frost

Posted 19 October 2013 - 12:56 AM

There needs to be a talent or glyph that increases the radius of healing spheres. Problem solved.

Edited by tofu, 22 November 2013 - 11:48 PM.

  • 0

#10 Eminemqt

Eminemqt
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 65
  • Talents: Beast Mastery 2/0/1/2/1/0
  • RBG: 384

Posted 19 October 2013 - 07:27 AM

If you make it targeted that would be way too overpowered but I think making it a larger radius would be a good idea.
  • 0

#11 OMGitsSart

OMGitsSart
  • Members
  • Taurenclass_name
  • EU-Blackmoore
  • Glutsturm / Emberstorm
  • Posts: 320
  • Talents: Restoration 1/2/2/0/0/0
  • 2v2: 1969
  • 3v3: 2090
  • RBG: 954
  • LocationStuttgart, Germany

Posted 19 October 2013 - 12:52 PM

Increasing the radius would indeed be a nice way to power orbs up. Making it targeted would not only make it overpowered, but also remove a lot of the uniqueness...
  • 0
LSx comps making dreams come true since S7

Read the About Me Section if you have any questions

#12 Xunae

Xunae
  • Junkies
  • Dwarfclass_name
  • EU-Ravencrest
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 1,587
  • Talents: Enhancement 2/1/0/2/0/0/1
  • 2v2: 1636
  • 3v3: 3100
  • RBG: 1822

Posted 19 October 2013 - 01:45 PM

Fixing leg sweep should be prio, it has like 90% chance to parry i guess
  • 0

          xunamate.com


#13 DerpiousMaximus

DerpiousMaximus
  • Junkies
  • Dwarfclass_name
  • EU-Argent Dawn
  • Cataclysme / Cataclysm
  • Posts: 129
  • Talents: Retribution 1/0/0/1/1/0/2
  • 2v2: 2110
  • 3v3: 2066
  • RBG: 960

Posted 19 October 2013 - 03:30 PM

Fixing leg sweep should be prio, it has like 90% chance to parry i guess


One of the reasons why i switched to charging ox wave, to me it seems like it never gets paried (might be wrong). Its also incredibly handy since it has quite a huge range and wide stun area, so you don't have to give up your position and frequently i get double or triple stuns off. And since im mostly playing KFC as a mistweaver, it really helps when i stun the enemy team during bladestorm.

Furthermore i think increasing the radius might be the way to go. Even a 2 yard increase would help so much, especially for someone playing with a hunter or warrior. Which are constantly all over the place.
  • 0

#14 sindrome198

sindrome198

Posted 19 October 2013 - 07:16 PM

Charging ox wave is good but it's quite slow compared to something like shockwave. It's almost a miss unless the target is snared which is not always the case. I think a better option is to have some sort of dispel protection like lifebloom for hots. Spheres need communication with partners but people simply dispel hots which all have a cooldown or resource cost that needs to be built up unlike druids.
  • 0

#15 Primius

Primius
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 354
  • Talents: Mistweaver 1/0/2/0/0/1
  • 2v2: 2039
  • 3v3: 2519
  • 5v5: 1150
  • RBG: 959

Posted 19 October 2013 - 09:17 PM

Charging ox wave is good but it's quite slow compared to something like shockwave. It's almost a miss unless the target is snared which is not always the case. I think a better option is to have some sort of dispel protection like lifebloom for hots. Spheres need communication with partners but people simply dispel hots which all have a cooldown or resource cost that needs to be built up unlike druids.


You touched on a great point. If hots were not so easily removed things might be a weee bit better. I feel like our HoTs are way to weak.

I always felt it should be HoTs as the primary healing tool with Spheres as a burst buffer of sorts. Right now we toss on HoTs just to build chi.

Seriously if I could use spheres 100% of the time and build tea I would never use any of our HoTs. They are absolutely atrocious for the resource cost, cooldown, build up time, dispelable, and have the nerve to heal for shit on top of it. Soothing Mist is 100% shit too other then building chi.

I just hate the fact that the only reason I wouldn't just sphere 100% is because of mana, because the other healing abilities we have are unenjoyable, and incredibly weak.
  • 0

#16 discoepfeand

discoepfeand
  • Premium
  • Posts: 75

Posted 20 October 2013 - 02:34 AM

You all play at a way higher level than me, so perhaps this idea is garbage - but I'd like healing spheres to stay like they are (with maybe a little radius increase), but have a new spell for healing to address the issue.

Heal sphere hps is enormous, and I wouldn't want that taken away to make them easier to use. I'd rather have a new button to press in addition to spheres to address the issue of direct non-channeled instant heal.

Some of the instant targeted buttons at the moment fall in the categories of
direct heals
shields
life swaps
immunities (BoP)
zen sphere-ish

If Bliz would give monks a new spell but wanted to maintain flavor, they could combine some of those mechanics to make the new button different from "just another direct instant heal".
  • 0

#17 Primius

Primius
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 354
  • Talents: Mistweaver 1/0/2/0/0/1
  • 2v2: 2039
  • 3v3: 2519
  • 5v5: 1150
  • RBG: 959

Posted 20 October 2013 - 10:18 AM

You all play at a way higher level than me, so perhaps this idea is garbage - but I'd like healing spheres to stay like they are (with maybe a little radius increase), but have a new spell for healing to address the issue.

Heal sphere hps is enormous, and I wouldn't want that taken away to make them easier to use. I'd rather have a new button to press in addition to spheres to address the issue of direct non-channeled instant heal.

Some of the instant targeted buttons at the moment fall in the categories of
direct heals
shields
life swaps
immunities (BoP)
zen sphere-ish

If Bliz would give monks a new spell but wanted to maintain flavor, they could combine some of those mechanics to make the new button different from "just another direct instant heal".


I get what you are saying but we really don't need anymore buttons.

We have surging mist for direct heals. If they found a way to drastically lower the mana cost in pvp only it would make life easier. That way when we played with teams with hard to heal targets via healing sphere we could switch modes without to much trouble. The trade off would be reliable healing but more risk of interrupt/lock out vs. better HPS, and no risk of lock out but might not hit the target you want.

Right now surging mist is AIDS... I find if I get into a situation where I have to use surging mist 3-5 times in the first minute of the match I am trailing on mana the rest of the match. It really shouldn't be like that where we don't ever want to use our best heal. We should want to use it.

Glyph Of Expel Harm could have been a decent heal but they made it shit via the glyph. Again that is a button we have all they have to do is unnerf the glyph.

I am very active on the forums regarding MW monks so I get tons of people asking me questions about the spec and sometimes I feel bad that I can't really tell them anything.

I was fortunate to find two people recently that I like playing with, and are playing classes that compliment the spec. There are just not enough comps where healing spheres is a viable healing option which puts any monk running those comps at a massive disadvantage. Was finally able to hit 2k MMR a day ago because of just having a team where i could switch to healing spheres.

If you play one of those teams then you think monks are fantastic because they are very very good in those type of teams. The problem is the majority of monks are not lucky enough to have access to play with those classes.

Last thing is if you are not undead you will have zero success as MW. There are only 9 ranked MW monks in the top 1000 and they are ALL Undead.

That is a major problem.
  • 0

#18 Gohi

Gohi
  • Members
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Kazzak
  • Misery
  • Posts: 9
  • Talents: Affliction 0/2/0/2/2/0

Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:14 AM

What comp are you playing/what comps other mw monks are playing?
  • 0

#19 sindrome198

sindrome198

Posted 20 October 2013 - 01:16 PM

I think pretty much every MW plays some sort of spellcleave since it's harder to play with melee jumping around. But I can't see how any comp would benefit from a monk healer over a priest or druid. The biggest problem with monks is that they don't have a lot of spells to use when people are low. They simply spam heals into the person unlike other classes which have some form of utility spells (on relatively short cooldowns/multiple spells - shield, skin, bop) along with multiple forms of CC.

Monks only spells are para which is awful since its low range, not spammable, requires no dots (or glyph) and dr's with a lot of popular classes. Every other healer has some from of spammable CC or aoe CC.

Buffing monk heals will make them op. They already have amazing healing output and if orbs gave chi, you would never run oom. Buffing hots by some sort of dispel protection and revamping their really bad cc might be better.
  • 0

#20 OMGitsSart

OMGitsSart
  • Members
  • Taurenclass_name
  • EU-Blackmoore
  • Glutsturm / Emberstorm
  • Posts: 320
  • Talents: Restoration 1/2/2/0/0/0
  • 2v2: 1969
  • 3v3: 2090
  • RBG: 954
  • LocationStuttgart, Germany

Posted 20 October 2013 - 02:13 PM

What comp are you playing/what comps other mw monks are playing?


Was messing around with PHD, but when going serious, it will propably be Shadowcleave or HLM.
  • 0
LSx comps making dreams come true since S7

Read the About Me Section if you have any questions




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

<