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Widow Venom Idea

Widow Venom Marksmanship Hunter Aimed Shot Clunky

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#21 Phaelle

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 04:54 PM

I see both points honestly. I play some Cata AT here and there and what they did was increase the duration of Widow Venom. I think it's 20 or 30 seconds. So you still have to manage it and keep track of it, but it doesn't junk up your globals as bad. I feel like they could increase it to 15-20 secs easy.

#22 Glink

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 05:10 PM

I think Cobra/Chimera shot should reapply it, just as they reapply serpent sting.

It does kind of suck to have to reapply when someone is getting low and you are low on focus.
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#23 sweep04

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 08:56 PM

View PostNickyEU, on 14 October 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

Yes I know the shaman and I are agreeing, but we are trying to convince Mr. LiveFreeOrDie.

And I am saying, that his argument is not valid and that sure it was done in TBC under a different premise and should NOT be done now.

I wish levidian was here right now to accuse you of being part of the illuminati.

#24 Udderly

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 09:20 PM

View PostPhaelle, on 14 October 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

I see both points honestly. I play some Cata AT here and there and what they did was increase the duration of Widow Venom. I think it's 20 or 30 seconds. So you still have to manage it and keep track of it, but it doesn't junk up your globals as bad. I feel like they could increase it to 15-20 secs easy.

View PostGlink, on 14 October 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

I think Cobra/Chimera shot should reapply it, just as they reapply serpent sting.

It does kind of suck to have to reapply when someone is getting low and you are low on focus.

OK if this is the direction we want to go with the game then from now on, every time you:

Corruption, refreshes cast slow curse
Moonfire, refreshes sunfire - why have to hit 2 buttons? it's annoying
Rip, refreshes rake
Auto attack as a cat, applies a slow - oh wait, that one happens and its mind numbingly dumb and bad for the game!!

Do you not see how this is bad for the game??

#25 Orlglnated

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 09:47 PM

Like I said earlier, I don't want to make hunter gameplay easier.  I already don't like the way Mark works, but looking back at Cataclysm and WotLK is it really justifiable to say Hunter is getting easier?  In cata all you did was the same exact thing you do now, get focus, dump it on chimera and arcane shots keeping serpent sting and widow venom up.  To say that dumping arcane now is too easy is to call the entire class easy since its inception.  In WotLK you didn't spam shots you just used them off cooldown like a melee dps with a 40 yard range.  I think a viable suggestion for widow venom is to cut Serpent Sting's damage in half (whats half of 2k anyway) then give it to Widow venom, and also make Widow venom a Poison effect so its dispel-able.  That way our gameplay doesn't become easier, it doesn't buff our damage, doesn't change our rotation, but gives us a purpose to apply widow venom atleast even if it is tiny as hell.

#26 Phaelle

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 10:52 PM

View PostUdderly, on 14 October 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

OK if this is the direction we want to go with the game then from now on, every time you:

Corruption, refreshes cast slow curse
Moonfire, refreshes sunfire - why have to hit 2 buttons? it's annoying
Rip, refreshes rake
Auto attack as a cat, applies a slow - oh wait, that one happens and its mind numbingly dumb and bad for the game!!

Do you not see how this is bad for the game??

Who exactly are you replying to because nothing in my post has anything to do with making an ability apply Widow Venom yet you quoted me acting like I did.

I merely mentioned that on the Cata AT realm they changed WV to have a longer duration but it's still a separate ability, which actually worked out really nicely balance and QOL wise.

#27 LiveFreeOrDie

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 08:13 AM

View PostNickyEU, on 14 October 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Wait... Does anyone seriously spam Arcane Shot??? Is that really an argument?

The reason they added MS to Aimed Shot in TBC wasn't so you had a choice to shoot it or do something else. It was to integrate a MS effect without affecting our playstyle at the given time. Any decent hunter back then was already chaining aimed left and right. It just so happend that they wanted us to have a weaker version of MS by integrating it in our long cast ability. Not to differentiate that spell from what it really was... our main rotation.

In TBC there wasn't much choice, no focus resource, no spammable shots with thrill of the hunt or anything... just multi-shot, steady-shot, arcane shot on cd and aimed shot. Back then we had viper, serpent and scorpid sting... they didn't add MS to any of those instants either...

And yes, every single high rated hunter I've seen so far in streams just spams arcane shot as MM with thrill of the hunt... even with rapid fire up.

View PostUdderly, on 14 October 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

I give up.  Hopeless cause.  GL

Don't worry guys, I don't believe such a change is 100% needed or anything, it's just an idea to make AiS slightly more viable and rewarding... you're probably right, and maybe AiS just needs a little extra base crit % other casts also got (chaos bolt and lava burst).

Widow Venom in its current state is fine indeed, especially with crit >haste >mastery you'll always have those 15 focus no matter what, sometimes it feels a bit annoying with the extra global but it's not game/class breaking.

I'd rather see Hunter's Mark become a more active spell again too.
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#28 Udderly

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 04:52 PM

View PostPhaelle, on 14 October 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

Who exactly are you replying to because nothing in my post has anything to do with making an ability apply Widow Venom yet you quoted me acting like I did.

I merely mentioned that on the Cata AT realm they changed WV to have a longer duration but it's still a separate ability, which actually worked out really nicely balance and QOL wise.

Longer duration is just as big an issue as extending the duration by pressing a shot you already press - it makes it too easy and is no longer much of a choice.  If it's 20 secs long all you are doing is making sure to apply it during non burst portions of your rotation but it doesn't require thinking 'should i do a or b' like it does now.  Now, you have to decide 'do i want another damage shot or lower healing for 8 secs'.  That's all I'm saying.

#29 Glink

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 06:06 AM

View PostUdderly, on 14 October 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

OK if this is the direction we want to go with the game then from now on, every time you:

Corruption, refreshes cast slow curse
Moonfire, refreshes sunfire - why have to hit 2 buttons? it's annoying
Rip, refreshes rake
Auto attack as a cat, applies a slow - oh wait, that one happens and its mind numbingly dumb and bad for the game!!

Do you not see how this is bad for the game??
No its not bad for the game considering every other MS auto applies without requiring its own global / resource cost.
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#30 Niosa

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:02 AM

View PostGlink, on 16 October 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

No its not bad for the game considering every other MS auto applies without requiring its own global / resource cost.

But WV doesn't require casting, melee range or a large amount of your focus.

Edited by Niosa, 16 October 2013 - 09:02 AM.

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#31 Udderly

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:44 PM

View PostGlink, on 16 October 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:


No its not bad for the game considering every other MS auto applies without requiring its own global / resource cost.

Oh I forgot that we want all classes the same. My bad

#32 Orlglnated

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 04:59 PM

It seems the only thing people are arguing is....  We can't bake widow venom into other abilities because it becomes too easy and homogenizes every class; while at the same time it's unfair that 1 class has to go the extra mile where something is automatically applied for others.

#33 deprivelol

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 06:36 PM

View PostOrlglnated, on 16 October 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

It seems the only thing people are arguing is....  We can't bake widow venom into other abilities because it becomes too easy and homogenizes every class; while at the same time it's unfair that 1 class has to go the extra mile where something is automatically applied for others.

no

#34 Udderly

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:28 PM

View PostOrlglnated, on 16 October 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

It seems the only thing people are arguing is....  We can't bake widow venom into other abilities because it becomes too easy and homogenizes every class; while at the same time it's unfair that 1 class has to go the extra mile where something is automatically applied for others.  

Yes because clearly poor hunters have so much extra work to do damage. It's the easiest it's EVER BEEN to do damage as a hunter (no min range) and you're the only range class that can't be interrupted/silenced (don't say disarm - they are far fewer and longer CDs than interrupts/silences). So stop acting like its a big deal. You know what. We should give hunters a slow on auto shot too, since rogues and ferals auto apply it- they shouldn't have to go the extra mile.

People ask for the game to be easier to win and then complain that the skill cap is gone. Incredible.

#35 Frostwor

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:13 AM

View PostOrlglnated, on 16 October 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

It seems the only thing people are arguing is....  We can't bake widow venom into other abilities because it becomes too easy and homogenizes every class; while at the same time it's unfair that 1 class has to go the extra mile where something is automatically applied for others.

Hunters are ranged, and have nearly no downtime in arena unlike the other classes that have MS effect. Not to mention MS can get parried, dodged and etc. Also hunter has rly solid damage unlike rogue and much more cc than a warrior and yes a rogue too. Like its not enough that hunters have stealth, rofl.

#36 LiveFreeOrDie

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:26 AM

View PostUdderly, on 16 October 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

Yes because clearly poor hunters have so much extra work to do damage. It's the easiest it's EVER BEEN to do damage as a hunter (no min range) and you're the only range class that can't be interrupted/silenced (don't say disarm - they are far fewer and longer CDs than interrupts/silences). So stop acting like its a big deal. You know what. We should give hunters a slow on auto shot too, since rogues and ferals auto apply it- they shouldn't have to go the extra mile.

People ask for the game to be easier to win and then complain that the skill cap is gone. Incredible.

I still don't understand why Blizzard failed to penalize the removal of min-range and later Aspect of the Fox... shots can be dodged now but this isn't really a compensation for so many buffs.

They made auto-shots go off while moving, removed the min-range, removed aspect dancing, removed Hunter's Mark basically (auto apply) and now they also removed readiness... not to mention all the mongo BM stuff which lead to the ultimate PvP disaster in MoP til 5.4...

Even any unlikely passive MS on casted shots should only come with a nerf/change somewhere else!

My personal 6.0 hunter wish list:

-remove auto-shot or make them only stationary again
-Hunter's Mark active only again
-defensive aspect without AP bonus or another minor active defensive CD
-no more pet dismiss for RoS reset
-make careful aim 3-5% base crit
-change MM mastery to something useful which actually fits the spec
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#37 TheGosuStandard

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 01:01 AM

View PostUdderly, on 16 October 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

Yes because clearly poor hunters have so much extra work to do damage. It's the easiest it's EVER BEEN to do damage as a hunter (no min range) and you're the only range class that can't be interrupted/silenced (don't say disarm - they are far fewer and longer CDs than interrupts/silences). So stop acting like its a big deal. You know what. We should give hunters a slow on auto shot too, since rogues and ferals auto apply it- they shouldn't have to go the extra mile.

People ask for the game to be easier to win and then complain that the skill cap is gone. Incredible.

Interrupt a shot that's only purpose is to regen focus?

However I will agree that some sort of damage decrease or minimum range needs to be brought back when in melee range. If that's the case other things need to be reintroduced as well as removed from certain classes. Kiting was fun back in wotlk.

#38 sweep04

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:01 PM

View PostLiveFreeOrDie, on 17 October 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

I still don't understand why Blizzard failed to penalize the removal of min-range and later Aspect of the Fox... shots can be dodged now but this isn't really a compensation for so many buffs.

Even any unlikely passive MS on casted shots should only come with a nerf/change somewhere else!

That's not how balance works. If a class does has a problem, you don't look elsewhere to fix the problem. That's how The Chewbacca Defense started. The removal of a minimum range was because in PvE boss fights with melee range requirements hunter's had to stand 5 yards back. The merge of aspect of the fox was because everyone just baked it into a macro with certain shots anyway, there was a fox nerf as melee damage no longer returns focus.

View PostLiveFreeOrDie, on 17 October 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:


My personal 6.0 hunter wish list:
-remove auto-shot or make them only stationary again
-Hunter's Mark active only again
-defensive aspect without AP bonus or another minor active defensive CD
-no more pet dismiss for RoS reset
-make careful aim 3-5% base crit
-change MM mastery to something useful which actually fits the spec


Just remove hunters mark damage bonus and bake it into damage. The niche of it marking stealth targets is great. It's passive damage and stupid to be called anything otherwise. A defensive aspect against DoT's should of been put in Cata, how much reduction I have no idea. RoS dismiss is fine. MM mastery is terrible, needs to be changed pronto.

#39 LiveFreeOrDie

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 02:39 PM

View Postsweep04, on 17 October 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

The removal of a minimum range was because in PvE boss fights with melee range requirements hunter's had to stand 5 yards back. The merge of aspect of the fox was because everyone just baked it into a macro with certain shots anyway, there was a fox nerf as melee damage no longer returns focus.

It was removed because the majority demanded it. The devs asked all classes prior to the MoP beta and the results were clear for hunters. Also with all the instant CC etc in MoP, a min-range would no longer fit in the game. It had to go and their only penalty was avoidable shots and expertise cap which is more of a nuisance since nobody likes stupid and frustrating RNG mechanics.

Aspect dancing with Fox was too clunky, but aspect dancing itself isn't since it was perfectly fine with viper aspect and mana. They could have given us a defensive aspect back then or something else to compensate for it... they didn't and the class just simply became more mongo proof...

View Postsweep04, on 17 October 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

Just remove hunters mark damage bonus and bake it into damage. The niche of it marking stealth targets is great. It's passive damage and stupid to be called anything otherwise. A defensive aspect against DoT's should of been put in Cata, how much reduction I have no idea. RoS dismiss is fine. MM mastery is terrible, needs to be changed pronto.

Baking mark bonus into damage wouldn't really change much, they've basically done this already with the boring auto apply. Many classes have to keep up some form of active dispellable debuff to increase their damage, and so should hunters once again.

RoS dismiss isn't really op or game breaking, but the mechanic itself is just stupid and annoying.
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#40 UGotKited

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 04:55 PM

View PostLiveFreeOrDie, on 17 October 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

I still don't understand why Blizzard failed to penalize the removal of min-range and later Aspect of the Fox... shots can be dodged now but this isn't really a compensation for so many buffs.

They made auto-shots go off while moving, removed the min-range, removed aspect dancing, removed Hunter's Mark basically (auto apply) and now they also removed readiness... not to mention all the mongo BM stuff which lead to the ultimate PvP disaster in MoP til 5.4...

Even any unlikely passive MS on casted shots should only come with a nerf/change somewhere else!

My personal 6.0 hunter wish list:

-remove auto-shot or make them only stationary again
-Hunter's Mark active only again
-defensive aspect without AP bonus or another minor active defensive CD
-no more pet dismiss for RoS reset
-make careful aim 3-5% base crit
-change MM mastery to something useful which actually fits the spec

Seems like some pretty fun changes. But do you think they would work in the current stat of the game? I would be a bit afraid it would put hunters at a big disadvantage compared to the simplicity of other classes damagedealing and, imo, superior defensives?




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