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Widow Venom Idea

Widow Venom Marksmanship Hunter Aimed Shot Clunky

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#1 Orlglnated

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:13 PM

Let's be honest here, Widow Venom since its inception has just been an awkward and clunky part of a hunter's rotation in PvP.  It is nothing like any other classes healing reductions because it doesn't reward the user for applying it, and it directly lowers dps as it costs focus and consumes a global for 0 damage in return.  Looking at other classes healing reduction effects like Mortal Strike and Wound Poison, these effects do a large amount of damage and are either a high priority dps ability to keep up anyway, or is automatically applied.  Since cata Blizzard wanted to give all hunter specs an equal mortal strike effect and its just never felt right at all, why don't they just work the MS effect back into Aimed shot, let BM hunter's have 1 pet whose exotic ability is a short cooldown MS effect, and then leave Survival without one since it seems to currently have the highest dps for hunters atm.  If Blizzard is all about balance, don't they realize giving 3 specs the same exact abilities  just makes 1 spec top dog at doing everything the other specs do?

#2 NickyEU

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:24 PM

No.

We already had a VERY large chunk of our decisions merged into our rotation. I really like the rewarding part of knowing hey, I don't need to apply Widow Venom for 8 seconds since I know we have 8 seconds guaranteed CC; so I can do damage instead. I already dislike Hunter's Mark being merged into rotation and heck, even our slows with glaive toss.

Overall I enjoy having to make decisions that can seperate me from other hunters.
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#3 rageTG

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:27 PM

View PostNickyEU, on 13 October 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

No.

We already had a VERY large chunk of our decisions merged into our rotation. I really like the rewarding part of knowing hey, I don't need to apply Widow Venom for 8 seconds since I know we have 8 seconds guaranteed CC; so I can do damage instead. I already dislike Hunter's Mark being merged into rotation and heck, even our slows with glaive toss.

Overall I enjoy having to make decisions that can seperate me from other hunters.

Agreed.

#4 LiveFreeOrDie

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:32 PM

I don't know about the other specs, but MS on Aimed Shot would be perfect for MM, maybe just for the normal casted AiS, not the instant Fire! proc... AiS is already pretty good now and well worth the cast, but this would make it even more viable for burst in arenas, and/or maybe change the careful aim crit thing into 3-4% base crit like it used to be.

And I also agree that the current Hunter's Mark is way too easy/dull...
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#5 Udderly

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:57 PM

View PostLiveFreeOrDie, on 13 October 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

I don't know about the other specs, but MS on Aimed Shot would be perfect for MM, maybe just for the normal casted AiS, not the instant Fire! proc... AiS is already pretty good now and well worth the cast, but this would make it even more viable for burst in arenas, and/or maybe change the careful aim crit thing into 3-4% base crit like it used to be.

And I also agree that the current Hunter's Mark is way too easy/dull...

We need less 'i pressed this button so i automatically got a bonus' abilities and more 'I think this button is the right choice for this situation buttons' in this game.  Widow Venom makes you actually make a tradeoff - do I want to do more damage or lower healing for this period?  That's a good thing for the game.  Baking in more passives is shitty.

#6 LiveFreeOrDie

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 02:04 PM

View PostUdderly, on 13 October 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

We need less 'i pressed this button so i automatically got a bonus' abilities and more 'I think this button is the right choice for this situation buttons' in this game.  Widow Venom makes you actually make a tradeoff - do I want to do more damage or lower healing for this period?  That's a good thing for the game.  Baking in more passives is shitty.

I agree, thats why I'd like to see it only on casted shots, not instants/procs...
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#7 sweep04

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 04:38 PM

View PostNickyEU, on 13 October 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:


Overall I enjoy having to make decisions that can seperate me from other hunters.

So do I.

I also don't enjoy having to make decisions that classes with the same mechanic don't have to make.

#8 Orlglnated

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 05:02 PM

View Postsweep04, on 13 October 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

I also don't enjoy having to make decisions that classes with the same mechanic don't have to make.

Exactly why I made this thread, I don't want hunter to be easy.  Its just with the way the game is headed. I would be all for Widow Venom if say Rogues had to shiv with wound poison on off hand to apply the 10 second effect, or if Warriors had a seperate non-damaging ability that applied it.  I'm all for more skill shots separating people who rerolled just for BM but at the end of the day its the fact that other classes don't have to judge whether or not to apply MS.  and to LiveFreeorDie I think your idea is the best, I mean it used to be on Aimed Shot; so why did they have to make Hunters the only class who has to actively waste globals on just applying MS

#9 Udderly

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 05:21 PM

View PostLiveFreeOrDie, on 13 October 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

I agree, thats why I'd like to see it only on casted shots, not instants/procs...

But you still get other benefit of doing damage, so it's still not a CHOICE so it just becomes something to not think about.  Also, let's not act like it matters that much if it's casted since it can't be interrupted aside from actual cc and not interrupts.  

My point is that right now, at least you have to pick to do it over something else - it has a cost benefit.  One of the few things I like about Gouge is that it has an energy cost for a class that doesn't have unlimited resources so it's a true 'choice' for rogues, since they are giving up damage to do it.  Widow Venom does that now, and would not do that if it was baked in to any shot, casted or not.

#10 Udderly

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 05:22 PM

View PostOrlglnated, on 13 October 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Exactly why I made this thread, I don't want hunter to be easy.  Its just with the way the game is headed. I would be all for Widow Venom if say Rogues had to shiv with wound poison on off hand to apply the 10 second effect, or if Warriors had a seperate non-damaging ability that applied it.  I'm all for more skill shots separating people who rerolled just for BM but at the end of the day its the fact that other classes don't have to judge whether or not to apply MS.  and to LiveFreeorDie I think your idea is the best, I mean it used to be on Aimed Shot; so why did they have to make Hunters the only class who has to actively waste globals on just applying MS

Homogenization is what you're talking about.  Other class has it this way, so should we.  Bad for the game, no matter what class. It's the same reason we have shaman with magic dispel PLUS tremor/grounding/shear and melee with interrupts PLUS other way's to stop casts who didn't originally have an interrupt.

#11 LiveFreeOrDie

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 05:40 PM

View PostOrlglnated, on 13 October 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Exactly why I made this thread, I don't want hunter to be easy.  Its just with the way the game is headed. I would be all for Widow Venom if say Rogues had to shiv with wound poison on off hand to apply the 10 second effect, or if Warriors had a seperate non-damaging ability that applied it.  I'm all for more skill shots separating people who rerolled just for BM but at the end of the day its the fact that other classes don't have to judge whether or not to apply MS.  and to LiveFreeorDie I think your idea is the best, I mean it used to be on Aimed Shot; so why did they have to make Hunters the only class who has to actively waste globals on just applying MS

The devs recently said in a tweet that instant passive MS is justified for melee classes while ranged shouldn't have it, and I agree...

View PostUdderly, on 13 October 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

But you still get other benefit of doing damage, so it's still not a CHOICE so it just becomes something to not think about.  Also, let's not act like it matters that much if it's casted since it can't be interrupted aside from actual cc and not interrupts.  

My point is that right now, at least you have to pick to do it over something else - it has a cost benefit.  One of the few things I like about Gouge is that it has an energy cost for a class that doesn't have unlimited resources so it's a true 'choice' for rogues, since they are giving up damage to do it.  Widow Venom does that now, and would not do that if it was baked in to any shot, casted or not.

Aimed Shot is also a choice which can be interruped by LoS/range and CC and costs half your focus bar, you have to pick it over arcane shot spam (which most hunters prefer right now)... a hard casted AiS already had a passive MS during TBC... the current widow venom MS model is okay for BM and Survival, I'm still not sure about MM tho...
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#12 KILLATON

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 06:08 PM

There is no issues with widow venom, if you have problems with it. Please just stop playing. The game is easy enough as it is.
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#13 Udderly

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 01:08 AM

View PostLiveFreeOrDie, on 13 October 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

The devs recently said in a tweet that instant passive MS is justified for melee classes while ranged shouldn't have it, and I agree...



Aimed Shot is also a choice which can be interruped by LoS/range and CC and costs half your focus bar, you have to pick it over arcane shot spam (which most hunters prefer right now)... a hard casted AiS already had a passive MS during TBC... the current widow venom MS model is okay for BM and Survival, I'm still not sure about MM tho...

This is my last attempt since you're missing my point.  It does damage.  So it has a reason to be used NOW, without widow venom.  So adding widow venom to aimed shot doesn't make using aimed any more of a choice.  There is no drawback to picking it - in fact you might say it would prioritize it even more.  We can disagree, I'm just saying IMO that we need less shit baked into abiliites

#14 Frostwor

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 01:26 AM

Agreed, hunter has way too many things built in one. Its enough that mark auto applies which is brain retarded.

#15 LiveFreeOrDie

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 01:34 AM

View PostUdderly, on 14 October 2013 - 01:08 AM, said:

This is my last attempt since you're missing my point.  It does damage.  So it has a reason to be used NOW, without widow venom.  So adding widow venom to aimed shot doesn't make using aimed any more of a choice.  There is no drawback to picking it - in fact you might say it would prioritize it even more.  We can disagree, I'm just saying IMO that we need less shit baked into abiliites

Maybe you're missing my point, avoidable casted damage is not identical to instants... casting is a choice as MM hunter since you can always continue to simply spam arcane shots, and most hunters won't cast aimed shots right now because they still feel it's too weak...

Like Raphner already said, widow venom is perfectly fine right now for the current playstyle with arcane shot instant spam in all 3 specs... but as MM you now have a viable choice, spam instants just like BM and Surv OR try to cast as many aimed shots as possible if you enjoy the playstyle... that's also why they added a passive MS to the casted AiS in TBC originally, and not to any other instant shot/sting.

That is the major difference between BM, Surv and MM right now... maybe casting AiS as MM should actually be more prioritized since casted damage should always be more beneficial and rewarding than instant (spam).
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#16 NickyEU

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 11:12 AM

Wait... Does anyone seriously spam Arcane Shot??? Is that really an argument?

The reason they added MS to Aimed Shot in TBC wasn't so you had a choice to shoot it or do something else. It was to integrate a MS effect without affecting our playstyle at the given time. Any decent hunter back then was already chaining aimed left and right. It just so happend that they wanted us to have a weaker version of MS by integrating it in our long cast ability. Not to differentiate that spell from what it really was... our main rotation.
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#17 Udderly

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 12:28 PM

I give up.  Hopeless cause.  GL

#18 sweep04

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 12:49 PM

View PostNickyEU, on 14 October 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Wait... Does anyone seriously spam Arcane Shot??? Is that really an argument?

The shaman is agreeing with you. He is even saying that what was done in tbc can be done for marks now.

I spam Arcane Shot when I focus dump. It's probably weaker right now. I'm moving over to Aimed Shot though. I guess players could argue that going Crit > Mastery > Haste with Thrill of the Hunt and spamming Arcane Shot with an extra Glyph slot is an alternative to Crit > Haste > Mastery and Fervour with the Aimed Shot glyph.

#19 NickyEU

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 02:03 PM

View Postsweep04, on 14 October 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

The shaman is agreeing with you. He is even saying that what was done in tbc can be done for marks now.

I spam Arcane Shot when I focus dump. It's probably weaker right now. I'm moving over to Aimed Shot though. I guess players could argue that going Crit > Mastery > Haste with Thrill of the Hunt and spamming Arcane Shot with an extra Glyph slot is an alternative to Crit > Haste > Mastery and Fervour with the Aimed Shot glyph.

Yes I know the shaman and I are agreeing, but we are trying to convince Mr. LiveFreeOrDie.

And I am saying, that his argument is not valid and that sure it was done in TBC under a different premise and should NOT be done now.
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#20 Lapeane

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 02:33 PM

Blizzard already said few months ago that they don't want WV to be next Mortal Strike. It should be unique for warrior and hunter has to apply it with global & focus cost. Anyway aimed shot with MS applying is good idea (like it used to be in wotlk) but these days AS was instant If I remember well. I don't think they will do anything about it this expansion, however it would fix a bit hunter's bars because hunters need the highest number of keybinds etc, more than other classes (Blizzard even said they want to fix it, nothing happens yet).




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