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once again: haste vs mastery

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#1 Daimbag

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 10:33 AM

So ive seen a couple of locks run haste gem and forge this season. I have tried both mastery and haste gem/reforge, but i cant decide wich one is the best. My question is thus; which gem/forge is the better(or is comp and situational) and if i were to run haste which haste breakpoint is the one to aim for?

Any feedback is appreciated

#2 Udderly

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 02:40 PM

There is a thread about this that's barely a month old. Haste more or less = mastery so it makes haste better since you also shorten cast times.

#3 Tya

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 02:59 PM

Mastery is significantly better than haste for destro when just stood still turreting (nearly 50% better per point).

Mastery is also better for raw aff output (nearly 33% better per point).

http://www.simulatio...40/Warlock.html

As usual, how you gear isn't amazingly important for lock PvP and your mileage will vary, but if you want raw damage output, use mastery.
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#4 Chanimal

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 03:14 PM

My gear set up atm (Mastery gems, mastery -> haste -> crit reforge)
Posted Image

Cast times:

Fear 1.5s
Haunt 1.32s
UA 0.992s

Gear with mastery -> haste -> crit reforge, but haste gems in place of mastery ones

Posted Image

Fear 1.4s
Haunt 1.24s
UA 0.927s

Trade off is that I lose 17.36% mastery (17.36% dot damage) for 7.91% haste (and get 2 dot breakpoints), and 0.1s off fear cast.

IMO Mastery still better than haste, think the damage increase is far too much for the 0.1s off fear cast. I think haste is only worth getting when you are very close to a breakpoint. Other than that, the damage loss is too high to even compare to getting such little time off fear casts.

ALSO... Mastery affects UA dispel damage (99% sure, someone confirm?), so haste sucks in comparison

Edited by Poobandit, 06 October 2013 - 03:15 PM.

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#5 Daimbag

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 05:25 PM

im not sure but i think that in full grevious gear i had something like 94% mastery and 17 or 18% haste on the PTR (can anyone confirm?). Full mastery specced, seems like the only reason to gem/forge haste is as chanimals said, when youre close to a haste breakpoint. Hence at full pvp gear i will be close to the 6673 breakpoint, the next one is at 9211. So it might be a valid breakpoint to get too if you play with the haste buff.

Thank you for the input dudes, appriciate it.

#6 davidcmc

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 05:52 PM

View PostPoobandit, on 06 October 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

My gear set up atm (Mastery gems, mastery -> haste -> crit reforge)


Cast times:

Fear 1.5s
Haunt 1.32s
UA 0.992s

Gear with mastery -> haste -> crit reforge, but haste gems in place of mastery ones



Fear 1.4s
Haunt 1.24s
UA 0.927s

Trade off is that I lose 17.36% mastery (17.36% dot damage) for 7.91% haste (and get 2 dot breakpoints), and 0.1s off fear cast.

IMO Mastery still better than haste, think the damage increase is far too much for the 0.1s off fear cast. I think haste is only worth getting when you are very close to a breakpoint. Other than that, the damage loss is too high to even compare to getting such little time off fear casts.

ALSO... Mastery affects UA dispel damage (99% sure, someone confirm?), so haste sucks in comparison

Hey, Chanimals.

I've noticed that you're using the legendary 30% spell haste proc meta gem.

Do you consider it a much better gem if compared to the standard Burning Primal Diamond for Affliction?

I've also noticed that only a few of the top Warlocks in the 3v3 ladder are using the legendary (PvE) gem.
Is it because most of them didn't bother to do the legendary questline or simply because most of them think it's not worth (if compared to Burning Primal Diamond)?

#7 Tya

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 08:55 PM

View Postdavidcmc, on 06 October 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

I've noticed that you're using the legendary 30% spell haste proc meta gem.

Do you consider it a much better gem if compared to the standard Burning Primal Diamond for Affliction?

I've also noticed that only a few of the top Warlocks in the 3v3 ladder are using the legendary (PvE) gem.
Is it because most of them didn't bother to do the legendary questline or simply because most of them think it's not worth (if compared to Burning Primal Diamond)?

I can't speak for Chanimals, but legendary gem proc + Dark Soul + spreading dots onto the entire team is nigh unhealable. People die in seconds when combined with Haunt+MG. It doesn't proc very often, but you only need it once or twice.

The new 90 talent helps tons with this. Keeping 1 charge of DS  and 1-2 shards ready allows you to pop all your cooldowns the moment you get a legendary gem proc.

Edited by Tya, 06 October 2013 - 08:57 PM.

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#8 davidcmc

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 09:37 PM

View PostTya, on 06 October 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

I can't speak for Chanimals, but legendary gem proc + Dark Soul + spreading dots onto the entire team is nigh unhealable. People die in seconds when combined with Haunt+MG. It doesn't proc very often, but you only need it once or twice.

The new 90 talent helps tons with this. Keeping 1 charge of DS  and 1-2 shards ready allows you to pop all your cooldowns the moment you get a legendary gem proc.

How's the proc rate? Like 1 proc each 2 minutes?

#9 Tya

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 10:45 PM

View Postdavidcmc, on 06 October 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

How's the proc rate? Like 1 proc each 2 minutes?

I'd guess around 1 proc every 3 minutes. It's far, far lower than in PvE. It's completely unreliable and I would only really use it for 2v2, or wizardcleave.
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#10 davidcmc

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 11:38 PM

View PostTya, on 06 October 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

I'd guess around 1 proc every 3 minutes. It's far, far lower than in PvE. It's completely unreliable and I would only really use it for 2v2, or wizardcleave.

Thank you for the quick answers.

Just one last question: which one is better for Affliction PvP?
Fleet Primal Diamond (+432 Mastery and Minor Run Speed Increase) or Burning Primal Diamond (+216 Intellect and 3% Increased Critical Effect).

I know everyone is using Burning Primal Diamond, but isn't the extra Mastery from Fleet Primal Diamond better than the 216 intellect increase?

#11 Tya

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:16 AM

432 mastery is definitely better than 216 int, and you raise a fair point. I'd never even considered that meta before. I'd imagine that the 3% crit bonus (which is actually around 9%, as in your crits deal 209% damage rather than 200%, though this is WotLK stuff and I'm not sure if it's been updated since) outweighs it.
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#12 zenga

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:50 AM

View PostPoobandit, on 06 October 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

Cast times:

Fear 1.5s
Fear 1.4s

A thing to factor in when comparing mastery to haste is the cast slow debuff from necrotic strike, mind poison, .... In your example a full reforge into haste takes off 0.1s to cast fear. but with a cast slow debuff on you that difference becomes:

no haste reforge/gem: 1.875s fear
haste reforge gem: 1.75s fear

The difference has become 0.125
Or in other words, the value of haste in absolute numbers increases when you have a cast speed debuff on you.

Not saying that the difference is enough to change your reforging plan, but at least it's a value to factor in in he stat comparison for arena.

#13 Hackattack3

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 05:50 PM

View PostTya, on 07 October 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

432 mastery is definitely better than 216 int, and you raise a fair point. I'd never even considered that meta before. I'd imagine that the 3% crit bonus (which is actually around 9%, as in your crits deal 209% damage rather than 200%, though this is WotLK stuff and I'm not sure if it's been updated since) outweighs it.

Exactly,

The crit bonus outweighs it and there isn't a great boots enchant now that you already have run speed.  By my napkin math (combination of pve simcraft and swapping meta gems) it would take over 500 mastery on that meta to even consider it.





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