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Sub 5.4 Mini Guide to Damage or Why do I hit like a wet noodle?

rogue beginner sub subtlety guide

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#1 Frostwor

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 04:57 PM

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Hello guys, lately I have noticed a lot of rogues have moved to assa or even combat, just because sub damage feels low, and people dont know actually what to do as a sub rogue to deal damage. So I decided to make this short guide that will explain some very basic things which I have the feeling a lot of the new rogues or " low skilled" kinda miss and cant enjoy sub because of that. Feel free to correct me if I have written something wrong and etc.

This guide is written for arenas, in rbgs and duels the playstyle and talent choice may differ.


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Fast talent choice and why to pick them.

1) Subterfuge
This is a mini dance and allows more damage, control, survivability and also allows you to land your opener much more easy vs teams that have high AoE or very good positioning at the start of the arena.

2) Nerve Strike or Combat Readiness
This is a personal choice to how you play. In general NS is against caster based teams, and CR vs physical based teams. However you can still go with NS vs physical based teams it's a matter of choice.

3) Cheat Death or Elusiveness
Personally Elusiveness is in every way better than CD atm for me. I have seen some rogues pick CD but ± 95% of the rogue elite goes with Elusiveness. CD however is sometimes good and can be changed vs teams that can 1 shot you, like the Elemental shaman teams which can gain 1 proc and global you.

4) Shadow Step
SS gives a lot of utility. It can be used both aggressively or defensively by stepping to your healer, even eating traps some times with it. Another great bonus is that you go behind the target. This means that after it you can use and ability and it will land 100%. E.G. Warrior uses Die by the Sword. SS>Disarm or Kidney will make sure you don't take damage while he uses it and your ability wont get parried. The other choices in this tree are also very good for certain situations but SS is the top one atm.

5) Pray on the Weak
This tallent is the way to go for a sub rogue, the 10% bonus is not only for you but also for your partners. I have seen some rogues using Para poison but just because it is much more efficient when you train a target (which is not what sub does), the root is also helpful but it DRs other roots so its not that good with most rogue comps since your partners already have roots too.

6) Marked for Death  
It has 1minute cd which has amazing synergy with Shadow Dance, using 5 combo points for evi or kidney while dancing is insane.


Glyphs
Glyph of Hemorrhaging Veins give you the bonus damage from Sanguinary Veins (25%). This glyph saves you time, combo points, and energy. It is very nice and helps out switching to other targets a lot. In other words keep Hemmo dot 24/7.

I will not discuss other glyphs as they don't give you any damage and I want to keep this guide simple. I will just list the useful in pvp.

Blind - (a must have one), Cheap Shot, Garrot, Feint, Cloak of Shadows, Recovery,
Recuperate, Smoke Bomb, Redirect.


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Openers explained.
There are 3 general ways in which you can open a target depending on how much pressure you want to make. The general formula and the type of CC  or DMG ability depends on what CDS the enemy uses and what class he is:

Trick you partner > Premed > Slice n Dice > Opener type > Crowd Control > Damage > Crowd Control > Damage.

Opener types.

Shadow Blades with Subterfuge. This opener uses Subterfuge  as a mini Shadow Dance and along with Blades makes insane damage at the start and it is followed later (after DR resets) by the real SD. The tactic is to force a lot of defensive CDs from your enemy and then utilise SD as a lockdown//damage imput and land a kill.

Pure SD opener. Pretty much applying pressure at start again forcing defensive cds, and waiting for the next dance or reset.

Blades and Dance. This is usually used vs targets that dont have safe net abilities like Iceblock and can be killed in the opener if they get too greedy in using defensive CDs or dont get help from their partners.

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Slice n Dice.
This may look a stupid topic but a lot of the new rogues dont understand the way energy gain works since this expansion (Cata also -_-) is not what the game style with energy was before and it feels less punishing but it adds up a lot.

So the reason of keeping slice n dice is not only because it's amazing for the auto atack % we get but because of the energy gain, as a rogue you should try keep SnD as much as possible up but also monitor it closely. Try not spamming combo points in useless refresh of SnD (E.G. you have 20 seconds more and you refresh it to max) because in this way you lose a Evi, Recupe or a KS timing.

The Energy Pulse of SnD

Now here it gets really important and this is the reason I have put SnD as a section in this guide. Rogue's energy regen is base line and adds up a bit from haste but with the current state of the game it doesn't really matter if you have some haste more or less. However, SnD gives you 8 energy every 2 seconds due to Energetic Recovery. The trick is exactly in this. When you start open or try to burst down an enemy and you have 100% of your energy you have to aim in timing exactly the 1st ability you wand on your target with that energy regen tick.

For example: I'm playing 2s as a Rogue dPriest vs Death Knight rDruid. My mass stealth is about to expire and I decide to open on the Dk since i cant find the druid. I sap the dk so that my priest can get a good position and clean the dk from buffs. I do SnD wait for my energy to go max and time my cheap shot or garrot right before the energy tick comes so while my Global cool down is up I will get 8+ energy more, so I have actually reduced the cost of my 1st ability with 8 energy which is a lot.

There are few addOns which can help you in getting used to this energy tick regen but practice makes it the best and in time it will become like an inner heart beat to when the tick procs.

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Setting up the kill.

It is incredible how many times I have seen people playing around 2k rating even higher blow cool downs into stupid things and when having a bad position. Most classes have very high stable damage and rely on it to land a kill, so its less punishing. However Sub rogue is not one of them. Sub has very low damage outside of cooldows and needs very good timing and coordination with your team so you can apply pressure and even land a kill. So this is how you do it. (This is the general situation as in arenas a lot of things can change and its not ideal.)

When you see your SD is coming back ask if your partner has any damage cds up, if he doesn't you can choose between waiting for him to get them or just using dance to apply pressure. You can also try set a kill with SD only and your partner helping you dps.  

During the time of the burst you must 1st cc the other 2 people from the enemy team so they cant Peel or Heal. Try to do this CC when you see the enemy has no or little defensive abilities and has no shields or hots on him. You can use Evasion or Cloak aggressively so that the enemy cant Peel you but make sure you dont blow such important defensive cds if you have nothing else (vanish etc.) because if you dont land a kill you will be in big trouble.

Pool your energy up to 100% or around it have SnD up and a garrot or hemmo dot on your target to trigger the bonus from Sang Veins. Make sure you have 5cp and TotT your parter.
Land a full KS and Dance with Mark (and Blades if you have)*. What actually happens at the moment is that you'r giving 25% bonus damage to your partner because of TotT and Pray on the Weak this is = to him having a berserker buff in a BG the damage should sky rocket.  This is one of the scenarios when the target has nothing to evade this stun. There is no certain formula and you just need to practice it sometimes you will need to CS first to force a CD like blink then kidney and garrot, sometimes you will have to garrot first and so on. Play arenas:)

*Sometimes you can use vanish if your dance is on cd to force a subterfuge mini dance if the timing is good.

The meta game here is that if unpeeled Dance on a naked target with no shields or hots should be able to get him to at least 30% only from your damage and if you are not lucky with your crits.


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Dat Damage Outside of Dance.
So far we have seen that Sub dance is very good and the main tool for  doing damage unfortunately it lasts only a few seconds, so how do you do damage outside of SD?!

Training a target is brainless because after 3-4 backstabs you drop around 20% of your energy  and stick around it meaning you can land 1 stab every few seconds after...

The right way is to pool energy as much as possible while trying to sit on a target with auto attack (you do this mainly to prevent a caster from casting not due to the dmg input). Once you have pulled some energy and you have 5cp TotT your partner and kidney shot this is the best thing you can do (+25% more damage to your partner) if  you cannot get a reset and ur getting trained or chasing a healer.

If the enemy is trying to CC you or simply dont focus you and go for your partners try get as many as resets you can. Every time you do so you get a mini dance due to subterfuge and you automatically pool energy while waiting to reset. Dont forget you also gain 5% more damage from master of subtlety every time you go in stealth and not just only that but also find weakness which is one of the main reasons why you reset.

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Timing it!
In arena doing the right thing at the right time is the most important thing try pumping your energy into damage when you see the target has no defensive buffs. Trying to hit a warrior while he has a 100k shield from a disc priest with renew will just waste your energy. Try damaging when his shield is down or right after it expires.

Some targets may seem very nice to continue smashing on but that is just a mistake. Pumping damage into a warrior at 40% hp with shield wall up while his healer is free casting heals on him is useless, he wont die. Instead better pool energy while the shield wall is up so you can use it after and apply more pressure.

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Switching.
Another very important part of the game no matter what dps you are. Switching between targets is very important. Many times people run in bad positions and are a good target to atack, sometimes they simply have no shields or hots on them and so on. This is a part of the game that is way too complex to explain in a guide and it takes practice to see when you can make a good switch. But by doing so you will probably not only do some more damage but force a defensive cd which is yet another advantage.

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Sum up.
I hope you have enjoyed this guide and will force new players to choose rogue and see the fun aspects in it. This is a very small % of what rogue does in arena since it covers only some very basic tricks and improving your damage. Yet the real thing about rogue is controling your opponent. It would be lovely if some of the top dogs from the rogue community reply in this thread and give some ideas to edit this content.

P.S. Still need to edit typos and add some comas etc. etc. will do it later on.

#2 Deniar

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 05:21 PM

Great Job! ^_^

#3 Stoss

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 06:16 PM

Nice job!

#4 Rohle

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 07:31 PM

i would like to get more insigth on the opener with subterfuge and the Glyph of Hemorrhaging Veins. i dont really know what the best opener is for dmg and certain typs of classes

#5 Frostwor

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 07:54 PM

View PostRohle, on 05 October 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

i would like to get more insigth on the opener with subterfuge and the Glyph of Hemorrhaging Veins. i dont really know what the best opener is for dmg and certain typs of classes

Yeah I will extend it a bit later on and fix more things

#6 Maumaux

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:04 AM

Nice guide great thing about this is it really applys to all spec not just sub.

#7 substance

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:58 PM

Nice job. Thank you

#8 SadRogue

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Posted 21 November 2013 - 11:22 AM

View PostFrostwor, on 05 October 2013 - 04:57 PM, said:




Trick you partner > Premed > Slice n Dice > Opener type > Crowd Control > Damage > Crowd Control > Damage.




Can u pls explain in detail what u think is a proper Opener type,CC,Damage and so forth,?

#9 seizureman18

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Posted 23 November 2013 - 12:16 AM

View PostSadRogue, on 21 November 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

Can u pls explain in detail what u think is a proper Opener type,CC,Damage and so forth,?

Yea I guess the nearly 3 page thread called "Sub Openers" isnt enough for you.

#10 SadRogue

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:52 AM

View Postseizureman18, on 23 November 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

Yea I guess the nearly 3 page thread called "Sub Openers" isnt enough for you.


  Yeah most of those 3 page's were you just spitting out garbage,,sorry with garbage like that,it is really hard to make any sense out of it..

#11 JackSmith

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 05:34 PM

Really good thanks.
Just remember ALL CAPS when you spell the man name.

#12 Vengeful95

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 05:51 PM

thank you, i'll just direct elwyn rogues into this so I won't have to explain everything myself. +1
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#13 seizureman18

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 09:06 AM

View PostSadRogue, on 24 November 2013 - 02:52 AM, said:

  Yeah most of those 3 page's were you just spitting out garbage,,sorry with garbage like that,it is really hard to make any sense out of it..

View Postseizureman18, on 16 November 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Just tested some openers and their damage. I only included damage to the target for the duration of Cheapshot / Kidney Shot. I also used the tooltips and 522 daggers for the numbers. (Please feel free to correct me if I haven't used proper Math anywhere)

Your opener:

Cheapshot -> Hemo* (11755) -> Ambush (43660) -> Evisc (77091) -> MFD -> Kidney -> Backstab (30624) -> Backstab (30624) = 193754
*At this point there isnt any bleed on the target so I reduced Hemos damage by 1/3.

My opener with Relentless Strikes proc:

Cheapshot -> Rupture (11180) -> Ambush (43660) -> Ambush (43660) -> Kidney -> MFD -> Evisc (77091) -> Backstab (30624) = 206215

My opener without Relentless Strikes proc:

Cheapshot -> Rupture (11180) -> Ambush (43660) -> Backstab (30624) -> Kidney -> MFD -> Evisc (77091) -> Backstab (30624) =  193179

So 40% of the time you are doing 206215, 60% of the time 193179. With Hemo opener you are doing 193754 100% of the time.

Yea pure "garbage" mate. You're the most cancerous poster in the rogue forums. Just leave before you embarrass yourself even further.

#14 SadRogue

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 08:42 PM

View Postseizureman18, on 25 November 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

Yea pure "garbage" mate. You're the most cancerous poster in the rogue forums. Just leave before you embarrass yourself even further.

WOW Whoop-ie-fooking-do,,,,A opener,wtf about the rest of it,,,,SRSLY calling me cancerous???   At least i can fooking read whats in front of me bro,,,What about the rest of it???  SRSLY it is pretty fucking sad a kid like u cant even read a fooking post!!!!!


Yeah kid,,,slow down and learn to read a post ..ALL OF IT.....wtf some tosser,

#15 Nadagast

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 11:44 PM

View PostSadRogue, on 25 November 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

WOW Whoop-ie-fooking-do,,,,A opener,wtf about the rest of it,,,,SRSLY calling me cancerous???   At least i can fooking read whats in front of me bro,,,What about the rest of it???  SRSLY it is pretty fucking sad a kid like u cant even read a fooking post!!!!!


Yeah kid,,,slow down and learn to read a post ..ALL OF IT.....wtf some tosser,

Can we up the level of discourse here please?  Jesus

#16 hekumzx

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 01:51 AM

View PostSadRogue, on 25 November 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

WOW Whoop-ie-fooking-do,,,,A opener,wtf about the rest of it,,,,SRSLY calling me cancerous???   At least i can fooking read whats in front of me bro,,,What about the rest of it???  SRSLY it is pretty fucking sad a kid like u cant even read a fooking post!!!!!


Yeah kid,,,slow down and learn to read a post ..ALL OF IT.....wtf some tosser,

You in a wheelchair? orrrr

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#17 seizureman18

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 06:16 PM

View PostHektiik, on 26 November 2013 - 01:51 AM, said:

You in a wheelchair? orrrr

Found his Facebook profile. What a stud.

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#18 Voidbringer

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 07:27 PM

So let me get this straight. One guy spends his time to do something useful for the rogue community and posts a very decent, coherent guide. Then this sadrogue whatever pops up with "MOAR DETAILZ ON OPENAIR", gets reference from another player to a thread which has more specific information and discussion around openers than possibly anything on AJ I've seen over the years (not only on rogues)...and yet he still manages to complain and offend others. Amazing.

I don't even play my rogue now and both threads were interesting for me to read. I will definitely check those out in more detail when I get him off the bench again. All in all good stuff and we could use more of such threads (minus the sadclown bit...).
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#19 Nexxer

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 08:11 PM

View PostSadRogue, on 24 November 2013 - 02:52 AM, said:

  Yeah most of those 3 page's were you just spitting out garbage,,sorry with garbage like that,it is really hard to make any sense out of it..
You are indeed very sad.


Good job on the guide, +1

#20 SadRogue

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 08:22 PM

View PostNexxer, on 26 November 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

You are indeed very sad.


Good job on the guide, +1

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