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#41 OMGitsSart

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:08 PM

Because you want most of your gear to be

  • Spirit + Crit
or
  • Spirit + Haste/Mastery reforged into Crit
Theres pretty much no point reforging spirit into haste or mastery imo.
Actually I might have said wrong, crit>spirit>mastery>haste gives out same reforges anyway

Also no idea about the weapons, I dont think theres a noticeable difference in dps whatever you choose


Got it now, was a mistake in my train of thought ^^ Thanks again.

About the weapons, if I'm not wrong, it should look like this:

- Special attacks (Jab, Blackout-Kick and Tiger Claw) should be the same DpS with either weapon, since their damage is normalized regarding weapon speed, and the weapons have the same average DpS (which is used for calculating them afaik)
- Autoattacks, their DpS, and the HpS generated by it, should look the following: Over a long period of time, when you have close to 100% uptime, the outcome should be the same, as the more hits per second vs more dmg per hit will equal itself out. Since in PvP uptime is nowhere near 100% though (not even for melee dps, and most definitely not for healers that have to overextend to do so), it comes down to: More hits over a short period of time, for less healing per hit, vs Less hits over a short period of time, for more healing per hit. IN MY OPINION the slower weapon should be more viable, as both will provide an initial hit when starting melee attacks, and you should get as much dps out in that short period of time. Would still be interesting, if someone that knows this FOR SURE could comment it.
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#42 Shridevi

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:00 PM

This is the deal with int/crit/haste:

Without buffs (even 5% stats), with meta, crit > int.

Buffs are multiplicative so 20% crit = 1.20 x .05 = 26%, = you get 6% crit with 5% crit buff.

In order for crit to compete with int you need the 3% to crit meta gem in the first place, or it's no contest.

In that case, with full caster buffs, int is >= crit for healing, on paper int heals for more.

Crit is also about .11 mp5 per rating. So 320 crit = 35.2 mp5 = 62 spirit

If you really want to analyze it based on gemming, int adds crit which also adds mp5. And crit adds mp5. Without factoring in buffs:

[1 int gem] 160 int + 40 crit VS [1 crit gem] 320 crit
Do math: subtract crit, factor in spirit:
160 int VS 280 crit + 54.57 spirit

So if you were to suddenly move 1600 of crit gems to 800 of int, you'd also need spirit to make up for the crit, which means you're actually turning 1400 crit into 663 int, which is questionable. If you end up moving large amounts of crit though, crit becomes > int.

So with our current gear I wouldn't go below 17-18% crit. To complicate things more, it depends on the comp. To get 5% crit you need to play with mage, WW, feral, or hunter with wolf, none of them are very likely. So in that case int is better since 5% int is multiplicative, unless you're getting spam purged, in which case crit is better.

Btw, orbs always heal more with int, and crit will give 0 mp5 if you spam orbs.

It sort of comes down to how you wish to play. I don't like using mana tea more often since sometimes it can't be used (CC, burst) and it limits mobility. Spirit is reliable, and crit can overheal, and that premise isn't accounted for with the PVE MW calculator [http://www.temerityo...aver/calc.html] . I'd rather stack int/spirit even though I'm stacking crit atm.

Then there is haste which is a valid point, more-so in 5s/rbgs. A year ago haste was worthless and blizz added 50% haste benefit to serpent stance. So we actually get a very decent GCD reduction from more haste. In order for the 6145 tiger stance cap to be worth it though you need 5% haste buff and need to rely on enveloping mists, soothing, ReM. You calculate it by 1.5 - your haste %. So 27.76% haste (6141 +5%haste buff) = 1.22 GCD compared to 1.33 GCD 16.65% haste (3145 +5%). So relatively you have 8.3% faster GCD compared to 3145 haste. It's noticeable since if you drink mana tea and spam next ability you only get 1 tea off compared to 2. However, similarly when moving crit -> int, you need spirit to make up for the lost crit, which means adding 3k haste comes at a 584 spirit cost, and then you need to gem that spirit, wasting even more stats. More spirit/haste come automatically as we upgrade gear, so I'm waiting.

Haste doesn't reduce spell MW CDs as far as I know so actually you cast orbs at the same speed but they do less healing since haste has no benefit. Surging mist is faster since it's the GCD, not spell CD. So you're really relying on ReM, soothing, enveloping, some surging for burst, and the basis is channeling. So then you use Zen Sphere since purging env would be detrimental, and suddenly you're using 3 spells (ReM soothing zen) which benefit a lot from mastery, so you think about stacking haste/mastery.

So all the options are interesting and affect your playstyle. Really though there's not a huge difference, maybe 4% extra healing you can squeeze out. The main problem is that MWs are terrible at the moment, haha.

Edited by Shridevi, 08 October 2013 - 10:21 PM.

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#43 OMGitsSart

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:12 PM

Post


Thanks for the more-than-detailled reply!

Throws up 3 more questions though:

- Why do you refer to crit as being a regen stat? Because of the chance to double proc tea?

If so,

- Is this also the reason, why you say crit provides no mp5 when orbing? (Because you have less chi to spend?)

And

- Orbs healing for less with crit, than with int... is this simply because they're scaling better with int or did I miss something else?

I was aware of the haste + hot/surging/zensphere playstyle option btw, thanks for explaining everything in detail again anyways. So basically, to sum your post up, minus the math to explain it:

- Both playstyles (Orb spam & HoTs+Surge) are close to each other, and it's personal preferrence
- When spamming orbs, since you have lesser mana tea generation, Int/Spirit > Crit
- When using HoTs+Surge, you can either go for Crit, or for Haste with Zensphere

Did I get that correctly?

Oh and btw, do you have anything to say about the weapon choice I asked for earlier?

Thanks again for your reply, and thanks in advance for your next one :P +repped.

Edit: What's the deal with Tiger's Stance btw? In what situations would you swap to it?
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#44 Primius

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:22 AM

I would advise against going haste and I was the one that started that. Haste was awesome two weeks ago but now that people are getting weapons damage is insane again and I am struggling to keep people up with haste especially with priest/shaman spam dispelling the kill target now.

You will need to surging or orb more and without the spirit to back it up you will be screwed.

I am changing my gear around as we speak.
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#45 Megorix

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:29 PM

Yeah... Agreed.

Monk healing is absolutely atrocious now. You can have Zen sphere, renewing and enveloping up while channelling soothing and still have your targets health slowly but surely drop against warrior teams especially.

It's funny looking at other healers complain about output (Druids, Holy Paladins), when they don't know how damn lucky they are. Monks are that bad.
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#46 Primius

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 04:48 PM

Yeah... Agreed.

Monk healing is absolutely atrocious now. You can have Zen sphere, renewing and enveloping up while channelling soothing and still have your targets health slowly but surely drop against warrior teams especially.

It's funny looking at other healers complain about output (Druids, Holy Paladins), when they don't know how damn lucky they are. Monks are that bad.


I don't know what to do right now. Teams above 1800 mmr are in 2s and 3s just dispels my hots and the damage of warrior/mage and warrior/lock is unhealable. I am close to going back full spirit because I didn't even have time to drink tea last night that is how crazy damage was.

We are in bad shape.
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#47 Shridevi

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:13 PM

post


Hey. Yeah, the mp5 for crit comes from mana tea procs. Orbs don't create chi, so conventionally speaking crit doesn't return mp5 from them (even though they're mana efficient in the first place). Orbs just heal more with int. The only "real" playstyle is a mix of orbs and keeping up hots, with probably zen sphere for dispel protection. The only personal preference is between int/crit/spirit, or all crit/int with just reforged spirit -- so maximum healing output with tight mana. I only explored haste because it's a future topic and may be good in 5s/rbgs. The only real benefit is when you have multiple ReM targets and need quick casts. It's dependent on your top heals after a game and noticing a pattern with those heals. For weapon I use sword, because I was human before NE and didn't mind the expertise, and also the slow weapon speed is good in 0.01% of situations where an autoattack crit might kill something, haha. It is better than mace. 1h is better for int enchant on offhand.
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#48 OMGitsSart

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:08 PM

Hey. Yeah, the mp5 for crit comes from mana tea procs. Orbs don't create chi, so conventionally speaking crit doesn't return mp5 from them (even though they're mana efficient in the first place). Orbs just heal more with int. The only "real" playstyle is a mix of orbs and keeping up hots, with probably zen sphere for dispel protection. The only personal preference is between int/crit/spirit, or all crit/int with just reforged spirit -- so maximum healing output with tight mana. I only explored haste because it's a future topic and may be good in 5s/rbgs. The only real benefit is when you have multiple ReM targets and need quick casts. It's dependent on your top heals after a game and noticing a pattern with those heals. For weapon I use sword, because I was human before NE and didn't mind the expertise, and also the slow weapon speed is good in 0.01% of situations where an autoattack crit might kill something, haha. It is better than mace. 1h is better for int enchant on offhand.


Ok, so i wasn't too wrong with my playstyle. Keeping up HoTs + Tier 2 Talent while spamming orbs and only using surging if the situation requires me to, was what I was doing till now. Was only really worried about my stats :P Guess I'm gonna stick with trying to reforge/choose my items in such a way that I have spirit and crit on everything, while gemming int/crit in red, crit in yellow and crit/spirit in blue.

Thanks for everything again ;)
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#49 Xiko

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:46 AM

are there any good mw streams/videos out there?
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#50 OMGitsSart

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:13 AM

are there any good mw streams/videos out there?


Not afaik, I'd love to see a full mw movie though
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#51 Gohi

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:30 AM

are there any good mw streams/videos out there?


twitch.tv/stucky2
us.battle.net/wow/en/character/tichondrius/Stucky/advanced
youtube.com/user/stucky2gaming
But there is a problem, he rarely streams and he has no vods so you need to extremely lucky to see him play.

twitch.tv/cdewx
us.battle.net/wow/en/character/tichondrius/Cdewy/advanced
Sometimes he plays his monk.
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#52 Xiko

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:10 PM

cool thanks mate
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#53 Primius

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 08:26 PM

Has anyone tried a full int build stacking as much as possible to see how much that increases throughput?
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#54 Eminemqt

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 03:25 PM

I'm going haste > spirit/crit atm and it seems to be working for me although havent tried 3s with a decent comp (only did ret/hunt and ret/enh) like ele/lock as orbing would be a lot easier but ill keep experimenting with it and see, im loving the faster gcd and faster chi generation though.

Im running with 15% crit, 6700 spirit and 31% haste although i might just completely go haste > spirit > crit as drinking mana tea is a bitch but ill see.

Edited by Eminemqt, 15 October 2013 - 03:26 PM.

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#55 Primius

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 03:47 PM

I'm going haste > spirit/crit atm and it seems to be working for me although havent tried 3s with a decent comp (only did ret/hunt and ret/enh) like ele/lock as orbing would be a lot easier but ill keep experimenting with it and see, im loving the faster gcd and faster chi generation though.

Im running with 15% crit, 6700 spirit and 31% haste although i might just completely go haste > spirit > crit as drinking mana tea is a bitch but ill see.


I am thinking about going back haste too. I miss the faster globals and my hots just suck and having to completely rely on orbs completely suck.

The major problem with haste is that you have to sacrifice crit because you need high spirit in situations where you need to spam orbs. The problem I was having with haste is if my hots got purged I was screwed because I couldn't keep up spamming orbs without going oom. I will get two more pieces of grevious today, and I think I will try haste + spirit and see how it goes.
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#56 Eminemqt

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:53 AM

I am thinking about going back haste too. I miss the faster globals and my hots just suck and having to completely rely on orbs completely suck.

The major problem with haste is that you have to sacrifice crit because you need high spirit in situations where you need to spam orbs. The problem I was having with haste is if my hots got purged I was screwed because I couldn't keep up spamming orbs without going oom. I will get two more pieces of grevious today, and I think I will try haste + spirit and see how it goes.


I think that if you completely go haste > spirit you wouldn't go oom at all but yeah the dispeling thing is a bitch, i dont get why blizzard would give the 2 set bonus a dispel thing for renewing mist but not enveloping mist, kinda dumb.
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#57 OMGitsSart

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:20 AM

Offtopic question: Anyone has any experience as MonkPHD? Playing it with LFG ppl right now, and we're mostly struggling vs DWS (Shamy version). I seem to be constantly sitting in some CC, being forced to either trinket Blind or a full clone eventually, leaving me open for a full version of the other one.

I'm mostly getting fucked by root/beams, as nimble brew would be the only option to get rid of that.
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#58 RuthlessChi

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 04:07 AM

I'm gradually getting more and more crit, the changes to chi brew and mana tea really motivated me to do so. Spam dispelling is a pain and in that case I am using spheres almost exclusively but there are other ways to "cover" enveloping.
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#59 Eminemqt

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 06:03 AM

Offtopic question: Anyone has any experience as MonkPHD? Playing it with LFG ppl right now, and we're mostly struggling vs DWS (Shamy version). I seem to be constantly sitting in some CC, being forced to either trinket Blind or a full clone eventually, leaving me open for a full version of the other one.

I'm mostly getting fucked by root/beams, as nimble brew would be the only option to get rid of that.


Get your hunter to save freedom for you out of root/beam. I've played a few games of monkHD with a few randoms but i don't think its strong or viable at all due to zero off-heals/dispels. Monks are only viable with off-heal classes IMO, and are extremely viable with dispel classes (ele/lock and to some extent, rets)
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#60 OMGitsSart

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 07:25 AM

Get your hunter to save freedom for you out of root/beam. I've played a few games of monkHD with a few randoms but i don't think its strong or viable at all due to zero off-heals/dispels. Monks are only viable with off-heal classes IMO, and are extremely viable with dispel classes (ele/lock and to some extent, rets)


Would've asked for it, but we played without skype on top of everything. Yeah, I know, we'd also prefer HLM, but couldn't find a decent lock and just wanted to cap quick. It's the late goal to find a good one though, for the dispel.
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