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#1 Primius

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 02:33 PM

So spent the weekend doing BGs and Wargames.

Mistweavers feel really good but I am not sure how long that will last. The low damage is really playing to our strengths but damage won't stay this low for the entire season.  Few things that I really noticed.

Mana

I switched to a full crit build. I am at 8200 spirit, 22% crit and 21500 spell power with our 5% stat buff. I was doing war games with a mage in 3s, and was at 27% crit. It was absolutely ridiculous combined with Chi-Brew. I pretty much could not go oom. Normally by the time I reached 100k mana I was at 15-20 stacks of tea. It got so ridiculous that I was sitting at full mana and 20 stacks of tea, after the three minute mark of every wargame.  I see nerfs incoming because with full Grevious 40% crit with a crit buff from a teammate is going to be easily achievable.


Zen Sphere

I am finding Zen Sphere to be superior to Chi-Wave now. The only place Chi-Wave seems to be worth it is in RBGs.  Zen Sphere now heals for more then Renewing Mist, and is a great buffer, and on top of it you get more mastery orb generation from it then you do with chi-wave. With damage being so much lower it just feels like a no brainer.

CC Vulnerability

I was getting CCed just as much as last season. The difference was that because people were not insta dying as soon as I was CCed it made life far better. I felt like even though CCs were being tunneled into me, I was still an effective healer.  Also if I wasn't CCed no one would dip below 80% health ever.  This goes back to the crit stacking I was talking about. Having hots crit so frequently on top of it being a mana regeneration stat for us is going to really be huge I think.

Glyphs

I am still undecided on these and I am looking for suggestions.  The Expel Harm glyph seems like a waste of a glyph spot. It only heals for 10k in pvp on party members, and with a 15sec cooldown it just doesn't feel worthy of a major glyph slot.

Right now I am leading towards:

Life Cocoon, Enduring Spheres, and Renewing Mist... Probably swap out Renewing Mist glyph depending on the comp I am running for Paralysis.

Few things..

Glyph of Rapid Rolling, and Furious Sphere Glyph are extremely good choices when going up against rush down zerg comps like TSG.

Nimble Brew Glyph combined with Healing Elixir talent is also pretty boss.

Overall I am feeling really good about the state of the spec going into season 14. Anyone else have any positive experiences recently?

#2 Shridevi

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 09:32 PM

I like your observations, I sort of wish I had an extra week to test things.  I noticed some other things recently:

Healing spheres have a larger SP coefficient than surging mist, which means it will only get closer and closer to surging's healing as gear increases.  So anyone reluctant to switch to spheres (myself) has to right now, even if you replace 1/3 of surgings with it it's worth it.  If blizzard wanted to nerf it they would have already done so.  If they are to nerf it I'd suggest decreasing the range to 20-25 yards, if anyone there is listening.  Nerfing the healing would be detrimental.

Dampen harm can't be used while silenced, sort of a game changer for me ->

Healing elixirs is decent for 3s.  I think you can have one saved up for low health, then you can chi brew again after it pops if you're silenced/swapped-to.  It's 18s CD but I think I've procced 2 with 1 saved up.  It makes the new brew mechanics interesting where you can choose to brew for mana, chi, or as a defensive.  It even does about 5% healing in bgs.  Tanking 5-6 horde, I was still getting destroyed with it in bgs, but I assume in rbgs you'll get better peels/heals.  Definitely dampen harm for warriors, they're crazy atm.

Agreed about crit, right now IMO it's preference, in a few weeks crit will be better to gem/reforge.  The basis is that gemming 160 int when we have 22k int has a marginal % healing increase, where 320 crit can result in that 22k int spell critting.  There will be a sweet spot of like 30-35% crit with buffs (copying the PVE'ers here), where extra int improves those crits and extra crit doesn't improve those crits but just adds (less needed) probability.  Without theorycrafting much, crit is/will-be better only because our crit is absurdly low and there has to be a balance for both stats to mutually benefit each other.  Not to mention that (as they say on EJ) the mp5 of crit is 0.10, compared to spirit .56435.  Crit will benefit hots more and sometimes overheal with direct heals, so it isn't inherently "better."

I like Zen Sphere but the explosion breaks CC.  The explosion is also great aoe healing, I'll probably use it in team fight maps in rbgs.  The 2x gcds and CC breaking makes me reluctant to use it but it's still awesome.

Rushing Jade Wind is a little bit interesting since it continues even if you're CC'ed (defending a node bonus?).  Torpedo heals for more still.

Wyvern = 35 yd instant CC for 6 secs, huge CC-chain opener, no way to avoid/break it without tremor or undead racial.  Their 40yd interrupt is easier to macro than wind shear and adds pressure just by existing.  I'd honestly prefer silencing shot where you can at least peel/move while silenced.  Blizzard replaces an instant CC with a better one?  This was a retarded change IMO and just nudges undead or shamans ahead as healers.

#3 Primius

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 01:11 AM

I do think there are two things that need to be addressed...

Our "save you" cooldowns are atrocious now.

They were already terrible but they are extra bad now. I mean Revival is a 100% joke now. Life Cocoon is barely 200k absorb and those are our only two things to try to keep someone from dying.

We need either an extra "Oh shit" button, or we need some utility buffs to these two cooldowns. Revival is not even hitting for 50k non-crit. It's absolutely terrible.

#4 Shridevi

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 11:12 AM

Yo, are you having problems with thunder focus + 4piece?  It seems like silences go through ti.

#5 Primius

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 08:38 PM

View PostShridevi, on 23 September 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Yo, are you having problems with thunder focus + 4piece?  It seems like silences go through ti.

Oh wow I thought it was just me but I have noticed this happening multiple times all weekend. I just figured it was server lag or something. So yes I am getting silenced through Thunder Focus Tea with 4pc.

#6 Primius

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 03:33 PM

Anyone else having much success? I have had a horrible two days in 3s.  Teams just purge my hots non-stop and healing spheres are not powerful enough anyone to keep anyone up without hots rolling, and on top of it they are still near impossible to use on anyone but ele/lock/priest.

Revival is a joke now...

#7 drockzo

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 07:16 PM

View PostPrimius, on 24 September 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

Anyone else having much success? I have had a horrible two days in 3s.  Teams just purge my hots non-stop and healing spheres are not powerful enough anyone to keep anyone up without hots rolling, and on top of it they are still near impossible to use on anyone but ele/lock/priest.

Revival is a joke now...
The 3's I ran so far went alright, I'm still running lsm so there's quite a bit of off healing and CC protection. Revival is god awful though, I'm lucky to get a 70k heal with it (50k vs warrior teams). The worst part is how it still md's UAs even though the heal is less than what a single UA dispel hits for(congrats wls). Like all healers I'm having a bit more trouble topping people, but for now it feels okay. I'll probably have a bit more trouble when I start playing against better players though

#8 Shridevi

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 10:18 PM

According to recount my spheres heal for 1/2 as much as surging.  Since warriors train and can't be peeled, surging gives chi, and 1/2 or orbs miss, I just take surging's mana loss for extra hps.  Yeah, even if you spend hours setting up binds/addons for orbs they do sort of suck.  The tunnel visioning is bad IMO and welcomes CC.  CC is bad enough already with coil/wyvern/storm bolt.  Spamming orbs for me just compromises positioning when I could be channeling at max distance or around a pillar.

It's more difficult finding a comp that doesn't DR with para/leg sweep, or even affl locks where para takes off dots.  Chi brew is nice but with sustained unpeelable damage it's a chore to blow GCDs on mana tea, and that long mana tea drink you get might as well be an out of combat drink in the first place.  Rdruids are better 90% of the time just from clone, and even they're barely on the ladders.

The only thing going for us is burst healing and having the mana to do so, since our CC is garbage.

Regarding stats:

Crit is .11 mp5 and chi brew can't crit.  The reason pve MWs stacked crit at 522 is because 160 int starts becoming equal to 320 crit, but the crit adds some mp5.  This is combined with their using leg meta gem rotation to get 10% free mana each proc, which is equal to the Chi Brew we get now.  So we can't really copy and get 7k spirit, especially when they aren't spamming battle-fatigued, single-target heals like in pvp.  They also did other things like hit the 6145 haste cap for ReM with haste buff.  A lot of mistweavers are at ~2200 haste where just half a haste gem would get them to 2348, which without 5% haste is a free enveloping tick, which is like 4000 int for that spell.

Then there's the next 5376 cap for another env tick with 5% haste, which you can reduce to 4719 haste without 5% haste for extra ReM tick -- basically by just switching a reforged trinket and 1 gem.  It will probably happen automatically since there's either spirit/haste gear or mastery/crit, and mastery sucks.

So yeah, it's not so simple as stacking crit, especially where right now int > crit for hps.

Edited by Shridevi, 25 September 2013 - 10:20 PM.


#9 Eminemqt

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 05:19 AM

Enveloping Mists really needs a dispel effect like lifebloom... quite frustrating getting spam dispelled on our main heal <_<

Wait so how does the gemming go?

int > crit > spirit? or crit > spirit > int? im so confused what to gem :confused: :confused: :confused:

#10 Megorix

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 02:34 PM

The heals on my monk seem very very low, definitely in a worse off place than last season - which is pretty sad. Enveloping Mist ticks crit for 25k and renewing mist crits for 8k. Pretty awesome. Healing Sphere isn't fantastic anymore either, and to top that off our two "oh shit" cooldowns were nerfed quite sufficiently as well.

Going to be a shitty season for us MW monks.  I get the nerfs from a PVE standpoint, but from a PVP one... talk about screwing over an already mediocre class. Meanwhile priests everywhere are laughing. Such an unbalance it's not even funny.

#11 drockzo

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 04:43 PM

View PostEminemqt, on 26 September 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

Enveloping Mists really needs a dispel effect like lifebloom... quite frustrating getting spam dispelled on our main heal <_<

Wait so how does the gemming go?

int > crit > spirit? or crit > spirit > int? im so confused what to gem :confused: :confused: :confused:
I think shridevi is saying that int > crit if your mana regen is fine, or until we reach some gear level (or maybe some spell power point?) then crit becomes better. So int>crit>spirit seems like the best option for max hps but crit is great for increasing regen (correct me I'm I'm wrong).

#12 Empathee

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 05:36 AM

MW is awful, probably the worst it's been since MoP released, which is saying something considering MW has been the worst healing spec all three seasons. Only somewhat playable if you run with an ele shaman, and even then its still bad. It's pretty sad when most dps classes have better healing cooldowns than a 200k bubble that gets broken in 2 globals and a 50k aoe heal.

#13 Enimos

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 11:23 AM

Monks are horrible and unplayable unless you play holypriest/mw/dk

#14 Primius

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 11:08 PM

View PostMegorix, on 27 September 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

The heals on my monk seem very very low, definitely in a worse off place than last season - which is pretty sad. Enveloping Mist ticks crit for 25k and renewing mist crits for 8k. Pretty awesome. Healing Sphere isn't fantastic anymore either, and to top that off our two "oh shit" cooldowns were nerfed quite sufficiently as well.

Going to be a shitty season for us MW monks.  I get the nerfs from a PVE standpoint, but from a PVP one... talk about screwing over an already mediocre class. Meanwhile priests everywhere are laughing. Such an unbalance it's not even funny.

I have actually changed my opinion on monk healing. It's actually probably the most powerful in the game right now. The problem is most people are not gearing for throughput, but for mana regen.

I spent about 15k gold the past week testing out different gearing options and the last thing I tried has pushed my healing to ridiculous levels, on top of still having incredibly longevity.

Haste>Int>Crit>mastery

That is what I went. I am at 16% crit/mastery, 19% haste without Serpent Stance (almost 30% in serpent stance), and 22248. I reforged off all my spirit, and I am down to 4700, and having zero mana problems.

I have 7th and 8th tick on Enveloping, and because of incredible fast channel time on soothing mist when when Enveloping is up my healing on target is ridiculous. I run Zen Sphere and it makes healing up a target amazing. Also if I can get enveloping up on a teammate before I get CCed, as long as Zen and Renew is up they won't die.

Haste is the best throughput stat I am convinced now for Mistweavers in PvP, because our greater heal scales really well with it. Crit is great but it is not on par with Haste because our two main healing spells in pvp both scale incredibly well with haste.  

With that said MW is still atrocious but not because of healing...

No dispel protection on Renewing Mist or Enveloping
Absolutely abysmal emergency cooldowns
Atrocious CC compared to other healers.
No buffers for teammates. When we get cc'ed our teammates are on their own if we don't get an enveloping off because the CC lands.
Horrible ability to bring someone up to reasonable hps after coming out of a CC
Zero single target healing talents
Horrible Mastery

Also it's boring. The play style is fun but it gets boring fast because we only have one chi-spell to use in pvp.

We need a few things...

A powerful instant cast heal on a cooldown that cost mana and not chi. So that when we come out of CC we can use it to boost a teammate up. In the same way that PWS+PoM works, or PWS+PoM+Holy Word, or Holy Shock + Word of Glory.

We need better defensive cooldowns. Life Cocoon is garbage and barely last a global, and renew is a joke. I only use Renew now as an AoE dispel, and not for the heal.

A secondary group buff. We need to get the crit buff that WW bring. This would make more people want to play with us. Casters love shaman because of the mastery buff, Paladins have both stats and mastery.

Paralysis needs to be reworked. Ox Wave needs to be reworked.  We need a spec only passive that makes Sphere Hand Strike ranged.

50% reduction on glyph of expel harm needs to be removed. 10k heal for a major glyph slot? It's not worth it...

View PostEnimos, on 28 September 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

Monks are horrible and unplayable unless you play holypriest/mw/dk

Yes this spec is complete shit

#15 Megorix

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 01:23 AM

Yeah, not entirely sure why MW monks don't get that 5% crit buff that WW monks give.

Ox Wave could certainly use a redesign. If it also healed all allies in its path by a balanced number (60k non-crit w/ battle fatigue would be awesome) or reduced damage done to all enemies affected by 25% for 8 seconds after coming out of the stun, that  would be nice.

Kind of wish our mastery was a little better too, maybe increasing their chance to spawn while at the same time increased the amount healed by the sphere spawned  by the same  % amount.

Also, something needs to be done on our lack of ability to effectively heal pets, since Zen Sphere just plain doesn't work on them. Makes playing with a pet class frustrating at times since we can't heal them at maximum efficiency.




#16 Megorix

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 01:48 AM

You mind linking your armoury, Prim? I reached the 30% haste (31%) and 16% mastery, but I can't seem to make the 16% crit (I can only get to 14%) or even the 4700 spirit (I am at 4500).

Thanks.

#17 Primius

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 01:56 AM

View PostMegorix, on 29 September 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

Yeah, not entirely sure why MW monks don't get that 5% crit buff that WW monks give.

Ox Wave could certainly use a redesign. If it also healed all allies in its path by a balanced number (60k non-crit w/ battle fatigue would be awesome) or reduced damage done to all enemies affected by 25% for 8 seconds after coming out of the stun, that  would be nice.

Kind of wish our mastery was a little better too, maybe increasing their chance to spawn while at the same time increased the amount healed by the sphere spawned  by the same  % amount.

Also, something needs to be done on our lack of ability to effectively heal pets, since Zen Sphere just plain doesn't work on them. Makes playing with a pet class frustrating at times since we can't heal them at maximum efficiency.

I would be happy if Ox Wave was targeted and lasted 4secs instead of 3.  This class in general has far to many skill shots, and I don't really care about "Oh we just have a high skill cap". That doesn't seem to be helping any of the specs move up in rated pvp.

Our pet healing is terrible.  However that is way down on my list of major concerns right now.

Another thing is many of the buffs they could give us can be done via the set bonuses since they are already terribad.

I think a 2pc that makes our paralysis last a full 6secs all the time.
a 4pc that made it so Enveloping gained an additional 1-2 ticks could help or a 4pc that gave 10% haste after casting renewing mist for 8secs.

Our mastery is so bad. I play a priest too and both specs have amazing set bonuses and mastery.

Disc mastery boost not only absorbs but heals as well. 30% mastery = 30% to absorbs and 15% to healing.  30% mastery if you are holy makes your heals do 30% more healing via a hot that stacks like ignite.

Another thing is if the 4pc made Enveloping stack up to 2x,,,

That would allow Tiger Brew to and Accession to both offer burst healing options.

So much potential with this class but Blizzard doesn't give a shit.

#18 Primius

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 01:58 AM

View PostMegorix, on 29 September 2013 - 01:48 AM, said:

You mind linking your armoury, Prim? I reached the 30% haste (31%) and 16% mastery, but I can't seem to make the 16% crit (I can only get to 14%) or even the 4700 spirit (I am at 4500).

Thanks.

http://us.battle.net.../Criming/simple

Hope this helps.  i am loving this set up, and I think I am only going to play with teams with a shadow priest so in two weeks I can hit the third enveloping mist tick easily. Won't be able to reach the 3rd until getting fully geared out.  However the 9971 haste cap is reachable with two or three more pieces of gear if you play with a shadow priest.

If my math is correct in full season 14 reaching the 3rd enveloping mist cap would vs. only hitting the first cap would be a massive difference.

Assuming 22,500 spell power in full pvp gear depending on gemming

Enveloping Mist 3 additional ticks + 3secs of Soothing Mist would be an additional 80,000 healing.
Enveloping Mist 1 additional tick + 3secs of soothing mist would be an additional 41,000 healing

Also the longer you channel the most healing you are going to do.  This just makes haste pull ahead even more in the HPS.  Haste also boost chi-generation via soothing mist.

We should still be able to pull 20% crit going full haste as well.

I didn't even calculate the benefit of renewing mist with the haste but you would basically get another 9500 healing in that window with renewing vist vs. only being at the 2400 rating lvl for enveloping.

#19 drockzo

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 09:26 AM

Does haste increase the number of ticks in zen sphere at all or is it just RM/EM? I'm interested in trying out your build and I'm looking at all of the perks of stacking haste

#20 Primius

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 02:20 PM

View Postdrockzo, on 29 September 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

Does haste increase the number of ticks in zen sphere at all or is it just RM/EM? I'm interested in trying out your build and I'm looking at all of the perks of stacking haste

No Zen Sphere no longer scales with haste but neither does Chi-Wave so it doesn't really matter.  I feel Zen is better then Chi-Wave running this build because it really helps with buffering teammates when you get CCed.

If you are running the typical int/crit build then Chi-Wave is better because it's more bursty and you need the burst to pick someone up coming out of a CC chain.

Grokki you are running LSChi so this build should really make life easier for you. Let me know what you think when you try it out.

Another thing is Haste aids in mastery orb generation. HoTs ticking faster on top of more ticks gives you faster orb generation. You also get faster chi generation.  The combination of Haste + Crit makes spirit worthless.  Zen Sphere also gives more chances of orb generation making it slightly better healing then chi-wave.




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