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5.4 Unholy DK Haste vs. Mastery and socket bonuses

DK Death Knight Haste Mastery Socket bonuses Stats

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#21 Forumz

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:51 PM

View PostMvpstar, on 10 September 2013 - 10:00 PM, said:

How, if we went haste we would need to be more in unholy presence to get the full effect of it.

while as mastery in blood presence we would do more damage then haste in blood presence.

thats how i see it anyway.

That's not how it works though. Unholy presence doesn't scale multiplicatively with your haste so, when being in blood presence, haste isn't suddenly less valuable.
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#22 Bridgey

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 02:10 PM

View PostForumz, on 11 September 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

That's not how it works though. Unholy presence doesn't scale multiplicatively with your haste so, when being in blood presence, haste isn't suddenly less valuable.

But in blood presence you would do more damage with mastery then haste, no?
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#23 Jeexlol

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 02:37 PM

It hardly matters.

Were talking about a 4% difference in haste or a 4% difference in mastery - it's absolutely crucial to understand "WHY" we would be going mastery. There is only one reason why you would go mastery rather than haste:

If you want harder-hitting spread damage. You'll want harder hitting spread damage if you're playing with a warlock/survival hunter/blood bath deep wounds warrior.

Here's a very basic guideline:
Shaman Healer (3000 mastery)? Go Haste.
Paladin Healer using mastery buff instead of 5% str? Go Haste.
Shadowcleave? Go Mastery.
Shaman Healer with Shadowcleave? Go Mastery.

#24 Athorta

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 03:11 PM

If we wanted to talk in technicalities, Crit is higher in stat weight than both Haste and Mastery for damage output, this includes diseases, Garg, etc. Mastery does not outweigh crit no matter how many targets you're hitting either, or how many death coils you cast. Strength being the overall winner in all situations, so you don't miss a str socket bonus ever (yeah that kinda means 5% str is better than 3k mastery, especially due to how Unholy Might multiplies it further).

However.. Someone brought up a point about gargoyle casting faster with haste. Yes, he does, and has a few 'breakpoints' where he'll get another cast off before flying away, and as you know, Garg hits hard now, so an extra cast is nothing to sneeze at.

Default haste points are at 2980 haste for 15 casts and 6019 for 16, with high points not being worth it over more crit. Are these worth going for? Depends, garg can be interrupted, shackled and LoS'd, so it's a risk, he'll do more damage in a shorter amount of time if he can cast, but the value heavily diminishes if he can't.

What I personally would go for is the 4160 or 6150 poińts, being where Garg gets extra casts under Unholy Pres and spell haste buff or berserking if you're a troll for whatever reason, varying depending on personal preference, and then going straight crit reforges after that with str/crit gems. Although i'm advising against the higher haste due to how much the value of it gets downscaled by our runic power income, through AMS soaking damage, and the 2set generation when you get slowed.

But hey, just my two cents as a dragon slayer, although you can take it with a grain of salt if you wish, as I haven't actually ran any sims/tests in PvP gear or to PvP scenarios etc.

#25 Forumz

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 06:00 PM

While it's nice to have the PvE view on things, there is no such thing as ''the'' stat for unholy in pvp. It's completely preference / comp based.
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#26 meowkitty13

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 08:44 PM

View PostAthorta, on 11 September 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

Crit is higher in stat weight than both Haste and Mastery for damage output

If you read the Elitistjerks article correctly, you would have seen that crit is only the #1 stat weight when you have full, BiS PvE gear. Please, don't misquote dps guides. I can't post the link since I don't have 10 forum posts, but it makes it extremely clear that crit is ONLY best when you have the best PvE gear equipped. I don't understand how you can miss the quote "Please keep in mind these stat weights use BiS gear, and the default simcraft profile, which includes the legendary meta, and legendary cloak and the amp/CD trinket. This means a changed race, talent, or gear, in particular trinkets and weapon, will change the stat values. I've seen far too many people trying to use these weights for characters that are 50 ilvls under BiS. I highly recommend running the sim with your own character to see stat weights for your character."

#27 spreadlol

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:24 AM

Probly the best would be (at least for most comps), as always, gem st, and reforge mastery > haste. I try mastery/crit for shadowcleave and i find myself "out of runes" many times (the not-so-often soul reaper's crit didn't compensate imo) Haste is pretty good as soon as you conect with your target, mastery increase all the damage you do, so you can put some pressure even when you sit in roots, and hit a little more when you are free.

#28 Athorta

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:17 PM

View Postmeowkitty13, on 11 September 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:



If you read the Elitistjerks article correctly, you would have seen that crit is only the #1 stat weight when you have full, BiS PvE gear. Please, don't misquote dps guides.

I'm not quoting a guide.. Even in 463 gear at the start of the expac, crit was higher than mastery, haste only being better because our levels of haste were so low to begin with.
Not to mention stat weights don't magically change with higher gear for DK's, as the entire expansion I've been using Haste (till comfortable, 6-9k depending on gear) > crit > mastery.

That disclaimer is more for other classes, but EJ just puts it on every guide as a general warning, but its not always the case. eg Destro lock, in pve you used to stack crit over mastery until a certain ilvl (that ilvl you find by running sims), or affliction where int > mastery until a certain ilvl where mastery > int, which doesn't apply to DK's as our stats don't really interact as much with our abilities than others do.

In PvP, stacking haste is mostly useless past 5-6k, and then crit is a lot better overall technically. This applies  in basically every comp.

#29 Schvetolga

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:30 PM

I feel like crit is pretty useless as an UH DK? I reforged mastery into crit and and lost 6% mastery and gained like 2% crit.. Feels pretty useless or am I missing something here? Obviously not doing it 100% as it should but I went haste/crit with the gear I have which is full tyra.

Edited by Urbandurban, 12 September 2013 - 03:37 PM.

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#30 Athorta

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:37 PM

Yeah, it's weird to think about. But you have to remember that Mastery only affects Shadow damage, which is Soul Reaper, Death Coil, D&D, garg, a quarter of scourge strike and Blood Plague.

Crit however affects every damaging ability you have, including those, and higher chance for Death Coil heal crits, which can be incredibly helpful.

So what you're really comparing 6% on several abilities to 2-3% on every ability.

#31 Schvetolga

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:17 PM

View PostAthorta, on 12 September 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

Yeah, it's weird to think about. But you have to remember that Mastery only affects Shadow damage, which is Soul Reaper, Death Coil, D&D, garg, a quarter of scourge strike and Blood Plague.

Crit however affects every damaging ability you have, including those, and higher chance for Death Coil heal crits, which can be incredibly helpful.

So what you're really comparing 6% on several abilities to 2-3% on every ability.

But 2-3% alone is hardly noticable. DK's do plenty dmg without crit, that 2-3% crit is barely going to make me crit more.
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#32 Athorta

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:29 PM

Do you honestly notice 6% damage on Blood Plague? Not really.

Just saying, in terms of doing overall damage, crit is better to stack, remember you're talking about 3% to every single ability, which means your overall crit count is going to be higher.

However seeing as we're really only talking about 2000 or so stats, you're not going to see any super wild changes like ALL of your abilities suddenly crit or you suddenly non-crit soul reaper for 500k by stacking mastery. Sure that's an over exaggeration, but you see what I mean hopefully that either way it's not going to make a huge difference, but by stacking crit it will be a slightly bigger difference than if you stacked mastery.

#33 Niwandah

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 05:31 PM

using w/e another is =)

#34 Schvetolga

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 05:46 PM

View PostAthorta, on 12 September 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Do you honestly notice 6% damage on Blood Plague? Not really.

Just saying, in terms of doing overall damage, crit is better to stack, remember you're talking about 3% to every single ability, which means your overall crit count is going to be higher.

However seeing as we're really only talking about 2000 or so stats, you're not going to see any super wild changes like ALL of your abilities suddenly crit or you suddenly non-crit soul reaper for 500k by stacking mastery. Sure that's an over exaggeration, but you see what I mean hopefully that either way it's not going to make a huge difference, but by stacking crit it will be a slightly bigger difference than if you stacked mastery.

Remember that crit is a % RNG, while mastery is not. That crit COULD turn out to make absolutely no difference (talking in extremes) and instead mastery would increase the damage you do overall with those abilities by a constant 6%.
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#35 Athorta

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:06 PM

Sure, but again you have to remember how few abilities Mastery affects in comparison, which is the main reason crit has a much higher value per point than mastery in basically all levels of gear.

You can claim consistency over RNG, but that's only if you're looking at an extremely small sample size and not looking at averages over the course of an entire bg/arena session.

Ignoring streaks of really good or really bad luck, you'll do more damage consistently over the course of a fight with a higher crit chance over a higher mastery percentage simply because crit effects everything while mastery is quite limited.

I'm not sure how I can explain it simpler than that to be honest. In the end it's not going to make a huge deal, but for those that really want to get the most out of the limited stats you get to play with on PvP gear, going for more crit over mastery is better.

#36 Forumz

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:27 PM

Just coming in here to point out that DK scales incredibly bad with stats, hence the stat priorities are unlikely to change, even during the course of an entire expansion. Haste is the exception because as gear increases and we get more passive haste, we get closer to GCD cap and that makes haste worthless. This GCD cap is reached far earlier in PvP because you're not spending every GCD following the DPS priority.

That leaves crit vs mastery, of which crit is a less reliable way of increasing your damage. That's what it really comes down to. Reliability. Crit is probably better purely dps-wise, but it's not a reliable increase. Mastery on the other hand will always increase your shadow damage by that set percentage. You know it will, it's reliable.

That isn't to say crit sucks for PvP. You can get quite a lot of it in grievous gear, actually. And it really is noticeable.
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#37 Athorta

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:35 PM

DK's are already GCD capped at 1.0s just by being a DK. Haste does not lower the GCD further like it does for casters, and only increases rune regeneration and attack speed/pet attack speed. Unless you mean GCD cap as in when you're not spending every possible GCD actually using abilities (otherwise known as downtime) due to either CC or lack of resources?

I wouldn't say a lot less reliable as it affects all spells at all times, so I'd argue the consistency instead (eg not getting crit Soul Reaper every time, but with Mastery you know it hits harder even without it being a crit) but yeah, you're basically choosing between knowing set abilities will hit harder at all times or you randomly do more damage overall. It's preference in that sense.

#38 Schvetolga

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:45 PM

View PostAthorta, on 12 September 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

Sure, but again you have to remember how few abilities Mastery affects in comparison, which is the main reason crit has a much higher value per point than mastery in basically all levels of gear.

You can claim consistency over RNG, but that's only if you're looking at an extremely small sample size and not looking at averages over the course of an entire bg/arena session.

Ignoring streaks of really good or really bad luck, you'll do more damage consistently over the course of a fight with a higher crit chance over a higher mastery percentage simply because crit effects everything while mastery is quite limited.

I'm not sure how I can explain it simpler than that to be honest. In the end it's not going to make a huge deal, but for those that really want to get the most out of the limited stats you get to play with on PvP gear, going for more crit over mastery is better.

It's not that I dont understand.. It's that I feel mastery is worth it more than crit. I also think it comes down to comps.
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#39 Forumz

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:59 PM

View PostAthorta, on 12 September 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

Unless you mean GCD cap as in when you're not spending every possible GCD actually using abilities (otherwise known as downtime) due to either CC or lack of resources?
I thought this was the general meaning of 'GCD-cap'

View PostAthorta, on 12 September 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

I wouldn't say a lot less reliable as it affects all spells at all times, so I'd argue the consistency instead (eg not getting crit Soul Reaper every time, but with Mastery you know it hits harder even without it being a crit) but yeah, you're basically choosing between knowing set abilities will hit harder at all times or you randomly do more damage overall. It's preference in that sense.

Poor choice of words on my end, but the idea remains. Some people dislike the randomness that comes with crit, mainly the randomness in burst periods. Sometimes you'll have amazing damage during burst, sometimes it will be 'meh' because you didn't crit. Personally, I just play whatever I feel like playing. Sometimes it's crit, sometimes it's mastery.
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#40 Athorta

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:02 PM

Well, it's not technically, but depends on your values of consistency, you can't rely on crit at set times sure but overall it's more damage the more you crit.

Kinda? Not really? Even running a single target cleave comp like PHDK, the extra chance to crit on everything including pet, Garg etc will be more single target damage, granted you can still get unlucky and never crit :P. And for spread pressure, mastery only affects Blood Plague, while crit affects both diseases equally. Eg. 3% crit on each disease compared to 6% damage on one.


Well, in the dragon slaying world, the general meaning of GCD cap is for a caster that has so much haste their GCD goes to 1s, down from the base 1.5s GCD, this usually happens during bloodlust etc. And for periods where you can't do anything due to lack of resources or inability to hit your target, it's downtime. Apolgies for the confusion :P




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