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Monk - The weakest class

Monk balance suggestions problems class

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#1 Rinsletify

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 04:29 PM

Ever since the monk class was released, they've had the lowest representation in high rated arenas. This is partly because few people play monk, but the main reason is that neither MW nor WW have can compete with other similar classes once they get to 2,2+ rating. I had hoped for some monk buffs for 5.4, but it turns out that almost every class besides monks (and hunters ofc) get a bunch of significant buffs. The main issues that need to be addressed in my opinion are:

MW monks need some kind of reliable instant heal. The only healing they can do without channeling Soothing Mist is Chi Torpedo, Healing Spheres, Chi Wave or cooldowns. This makes them incredibly weak when healing other players after they're hit by a strong CC chain. Where most healers can cast a shield or a Swiftmend after getting cc'ed, a monk has to carefully aim Healing Spheres if he doesn't want to get instantly interrupted with his Soothing Mist. Healing Spheres ARE strong, but they're too unreliable when compared to most other instant heals. MW monks also have the weakest CC's of all healing specs and the combination of those two disadvantages is the main problem with MW healing. A fix could either be giving monks a reliable instant heal or adding 2 yd range to Healing Spheres to make them more reliable.

WW is far worse off than MW. WW has the same problem as rogues in that it can be killed in a stun because of their low passive dmg reduction, but with strong defensive cd's. This, however, isn't the biggest problem. WW monks only have a very weak ranged CC (15 yd, 4 sec sap), which means that they have to rely heavily on their burst to get a kill. Their burst, however, takes ages to actually build up, which makes WW monks very hard to play with in 3s. When playing 2s (some people still do it), a WW can reliably build up 10-20 brew stacks before they go hard (when playing with a healer). In 3s, however, the other team will always get the initial advantage because they can burst from the beginning, while the monk and his teammate has to wait for the monk's stacks to build up. When you're pressured from the beginning, it's almost impossible to turn the game in your favour again. Most games against melee cleaves actually end before the monk even gets a chance to go hard. Buffing brew stack generation would have too great of an impact on PvE, so the only change that comes to mind is to have monks start off with 5-10 brew stacks when entering arenas (kinda like locks start off with an ember). This way the mechanic of generating your own burst is still in place, but the monk's teammates won't have to wait for the monk's stacks to go up before going Hiroshima on the other team.

TL;DR - Monk representation shows that they're and always have been weak. MW needs a reliable instant heal and WW monks need a change to their brew stacks to be viable in most 3s combos.

#2 Hoodzx

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 04:52 PM

No

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#3 Samyh

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 05:55 PM

yeah 150k flying pancake kicks or whatever are totally fine

#4 Rinsletify

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 06:08 PM

I'm not complaining about WW dmg. Nerf it for all I care.
More or less every class can deal 150k hits these days (or several lower dmg hits in a short amount of time, you get the point). Also, monks would have to have both 10 brew stacks, dps trinket procs AND be lucky with their crits (no guaranteed crits here) to get a 150k hit. The problem is that without strong CC chains on a healer (something that monks can hardly contribute with), the only way to get a kill is to line up monk burst with the other dps's burst. Most melees have to play like like that, but since their burst is always ready from the beginning, it's easy for them to line up their cd's. When playing with a monk you have to either wait until his burst is ready (which means you get far behind on pressure and risk losing before you get the chance to even go hard) or you have to burst before the monk (which means that you can't line the two bursts up together).
The only class that works in a monk combo is more or less Spriests because they too will have to build up their burst (and monk peels help them a lot).
If monks were truly strong, there'd be more than 3.7% of them at 2.2+ rating, considering that they're capable of playing 2 roles in PvP.

#5 Marshmellow

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 07:08 PM

View PostRinsletify, on 19 August 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

MW needs a reliable instant heal and WW monks need a change to their brew stacks to be viable in most 3s combos.

Healing orbs are a skill shot but they are one of the strongest instant heals in the game

and I'm not sure if you've played on the ptr but a good monk can get 10 stacks of TEB in 25-30 seconds of uptime

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Also, monks would have to have both 10 brew stacks, dps trinket procs AND be lucky with their crits (no guaranteed crits here) to get a 150k hit.

not sure if you've ever played WW now..

Good WW monks can force defensive cds in the first 20-30 seconds of a match (2's and 3's), then use stacks when the other team has only a few cds left, which is how a majority of games are won.

so go play WW on the ptr and come back, and if you say the same things you are obviously crazy


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#6 Rinsletify

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 07:35 PM

I fully agree that Healing Spheres are some of the strongest heals in the game, but they aren't reliable. It's true that buffing them would probably not be the way to go as they already play a vital role in MW healing (if nothing else then for self heals). The main problem is that MW monks are already very weak against CC. They don't have any handy groundings or spectral guises to escape a CC and when they don't have any reliable heals to use after a CC then they fall severely behind other healing classes (as it should be pretty obvious on 3s arena representation. It's no coincidence that there are 6 times more discs than monks above 2,2k).

When you have to use 4 chi instead of 3 to get a brew stack, our brew generation is only slightly higher than normal with the new mastery. If you want 10 brew stacks in half a minute then the entire enemy team must have chosen not to use a single CC on you for the entire game. And just because "a good monk can" force a defensive cd before stacks, doesn't mean that they're strong. The same could be said for every class. Having to wait before bursting isn't the problem in itself. It's how it affects your teammate's burst timing.
All in all, there aren't enough game changing PvP changes to monks to fix how far they're behind all other classes. And when I say that they need buffs, it's not just because of my own biased opinions. It's mainly because of how the monk representation shows that they're the most unattractive class by far. Nearly every melee dps gets significant buffs for 5.4. Monks, the least used class, get a few minor ones.

#7 Saikx

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 07:56 PM

mw - buff cc avoid stuff, nerf orbs, edit the drs

ww- fk that shit

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#8 Zaephyr

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 08:24 PM

A monk played to it's full potential is arguably one of the best healers. Which is good as it promotes rating going up with a better skill level

Edited by Zaephyr, 19 August 2013 - 08:25 PM.

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#9 mckevrx

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 08:57 PM

View PostZaephyr, on 19 August 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

A monk played to it's full potential is arguably one of the best healers. Which is good as it promotes rating going up with a better skill level

QFT, faced your shadowcleave.. xuna is just a monster :S you lucky bastard getting a 1% ams off tho
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#10 Marshmellow

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:13 PM

View PostZaephyr, on 19 August 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

A monk played to it's full potential is arguably one of the best healers. Which is good as it promotes rating going up with a better skill level

same thing goes for WW, maybe not the best melee when played good, but definitely viable 2500+
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#11 Zaephyr

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:18 PM

View Postmckevrx, on 19 August 2013 - 08:57 PM, said:

QFT, faced your shadowcleave.. xuna is just a monster :S you lucky bastard getting a 1% ams off tho

yeah xuna is fucking amazing at monk

hahah :P well it only absorbs like 50k!
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#12 Covlol

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:19 PM

View PostMarshmellow, on 19 August 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

same thing goes for WW, maybe not the best melee when played good, but definitely viable 2500+

This, plus its the funnest melee in game currently imo
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#13 Rinsletify

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:43 PM

I know that I keep repeating myself, but if WW monks were really that good then why are there 3-6 times more wars, retris, ferals, unholies and rogues? I don't want to hear an excuse like "it's a new class". DKs during WOTLK proved that that's not a valid reason. Not to mention that the monk representation at lower ratings is better than at higher ratings (though it's still poor).

#14 Marshmellow

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 09:49 PM

View PostRinsletify, on 19 August 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

I know that I keep repeating myself, but if WW monks were really that good then why are there 3-6 times more wars, retris, ferals, unholies and rogues? I don't want to hear an excuse like "it's a new class". DKs during WOTLK proved that that's not a valid reason. Not to mention that the monk representation at lower ratings is better than at higher ratings (though it's still poor).

That's because WW gets harder and harder as your rating goes up, and most of those classes have much better synergy with other classes, making their viable comps better
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#15 Covlol

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 10:09 PM

View PostMarshmellow, on 19 August 2013 - 09:49 PM, said:

That's because WW gets harder and harder as your rating goes up, and most of those classes have much better synergy with other classes, making their viable comps better

A lot of it has to do with paralysis dr'n with all the classes that monk should play well with i think.
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#16 Marshmellow

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 10:42 PM

View PostCovlol, on 19 August 2013 - 10:09 PM, said:

A lot of it has to do with paralysis dr'n with all the classes that monk should play well with i think.

it does, I think if they swapped it from poly dr to fear DR it would open up alot of viable comps to us
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#17 Covlol

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 12:06 AM

View PostMarshmellow, on 19 August 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:



it does, I think if they swapped it from poly dr to fear DR it would open up alot of viable comps to us

Would make sense.
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#18 Syncrow

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:17 AM

View PostRinsletify, on 19 August 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Their burst, however, takes ages to actually build up.
...while the monk and his teammate has to wait for the monk's stacks to build up.

You can build up 10 stacks of TeB in 10-12 seconds!! So, that's not the problem...

#19 Marshmellow

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:02 AM

View PostSyncrow, on 20 August 2013 - 02:17 AM, said:

You can build up 10 stacks of TeB in 10-12 seconds!! So, that's not the problem...

this would require spending 4 chi every global, or getting 100% mastery procs, not saying it can't happen, but I highly doubt it ever would
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#20 Syncrow

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:22 AM

View PostMarshmellow, on 20 August 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

this would require spending 4 chi every global, or getting 100% mastery procs, not saying it can't happen, but I highly doubt it ever would

The key word is "Chi Brew"! You can get 4-6 stacks in 1 global! And Chi Brew can also trigger the mastery proc, if blizzard doesn't changed it!





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