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Warrior number pass -Making warrior PvP damage more meaningful

warrior dps mortal CS swifty 5.4

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#1 Braindance

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 05:58 PM

Warrior number pass -Making warrior PvP  damage more meaningful


Purpose: Enumerate the weaknesses of Arms damage-wise, and provide potential solutions.

I am convinced that Arms is bound to receive some PvE damage buffs, since we remain the lowest dps spec on the PTR, and the premier DPS comparison sites (worldoflogs, raidbots etc), SimCraft simulations and advanced theorycrafting sites like elitist jerks, point to arms being one of the weakest dps specs in the game. My purpose is to direct some of those potential buffs to being meaningful in PvP.

Posted ImageColossus Smash


Purpose: To increase warrior damage significantly and provide burst windows

Issue:  Arms PvE dps is designed around doing tremendous damage while CS is up. However,  this creates the following problems
  • Our PvE damage is condensed in the duration of this debuff, which is approximately an 80% damage increase vs boss armor
  • However since it’s only 50% armor reduction in PvP, this translates to 10-17% damage increase vs players of varying armor. Therefore, we do not reap the large benefit that it provides in PvE, and because our damage is balanced around this debuff (i.e. significantly lower outside of CS), our PvP damage is not as strong as it’s supposed to be
Solutions:

1)   Make CS 50% both in PvE and PvP – increase duration to xx seconds
2)   Make CS 50% both in PvE and PvP – recalibrate damage of other DPS abilities (overpower, mortal strike etc)
3)   Make CS a passive buff, similar to Tiger Palm for monks, with an increased duration and reduced effect (30-40%)

Posted ImageEnrage

Purpose: High uptime (PvE) buff that increases damage by a flat 10%

Issue:  PvE gear provides warriors with a high enough crit chance, that this buff has a high uptime. However, in PvP warriors can barely achieve ~23% crit chance (full crit gems, reforges etc), limiting the uptime severely. High uptime is also achieved with the use of berseker rage, which however cannot be done in PvP, since berseker rage is 99.9% of the time used as a fear breaker, and not as a dps increasing ability.

Solutions:

1)   Charge increases critical strike chance of Mortal Strike by 100% (similar to how it was in Ulduar tier). This way, the buff will have a significant uptime in PvP, and will only be a marginal DPS increase in PvE
2)   Make Enrage proc from other attacks with a lower chance of procing (overpower, deep wounds etc)
3)   Make enrage proc from non-crits of MS and CS


Posted ImageSwifty

Purpose: Three extremely potent cooldowns (recklessness, avatar, skull banner), binded into one macro, with the purpose of dealing tremendous (often lethal) damage

Issues:

1)   If you do not manage to get a kill during the above cds your damage suffers greatly

2)   The long cooldown on all three of them, makes it hard for warriors to play in teams that rely on steady pressure (warrior/lock etc). Instead, it forces warriors to team up with a class that does similar burst (but almost always has superior sustained compared to the warrior like hunters/ferals etc), and hope to win in the first few seconds of the match


Solution: The only way out, is to significantly reduce the cooldown of the above abilities, and give them a reduced effect. Eg recklessness grants 20% crit on abilities down from 30% - cooldown reduced to 1.5 minute. Avatar increases all damage by 15% - duration reduced to 15 seconds from 24, cooldown reduced to 1.5 minute etc. This way, PvE dps will remain the same, but the PvP warrior will have a more meaningful role in the team, and he/she will be able to create more kill opportunities outside of once every 3 minutes


Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImageStances

Purpose: Different stances for different modes of combat

Issues:
1)   With burst being extremely high, defensive stance is the premier stance for PvP
2)   Berserker stance does not have a strong niche, and it’s not useful in PvP, since to have a rage gain comparable to battle stance you must be taking ~24k dps of damage, in which case you would want to be in defensive stance
3)   Our damage is designed around being in battle stance. However most of the time we are in defensive stance significantly crippling our damage in PvP. Dks (who have a similar playstyle to ours), do not have this problem, since staying in blood presence most of the game does not limit their damage as severely as ours

Solutions:
1)   Allow some rage regeneration to continue in defensive stance for arms and fury only. Eg you gain 6 rage per autoattack while in defensive stance through Unbridled Wrath
2)   Make Unbridled Wrath, grant you will Enrage every time you are hit with a critical strike. This is in my opinion the best and easiest solution since it would provide 0 buffs in PvE, but it would significantly help arms in PvP since:

a.    Gives our old niche back of gaining rage and doing more damage while being trained

b.   Makes training the warrior for the entire game a less viable strategy. Even now, with the defensive stance buff, training the warrior is foolproof, since it forces the warrior to stay in defensive stance completely crippling his damage

3)   Make berserker stance the premier PvP stance, by adding bonuses such as the ones mentioned here http://www.arenajunk...rserker-stance/
4)   Give battle stance some passive damage reduction of the order of 10% (perhaps through the pvp 4 set bonus)

Posted ImageOverpower

Purpose: The most used dps ability of Arms

Issue: While overpower is a significant portion of our sustained damage, the fact that it does 105% weapon damage, even with a high crit chance (+60%) makes it hit like a wet noodle in PvP. This leads to damage that is not meaningful (i.e. cannot force cooldowns, cannot force casted heals, cannot force mana usage). This is a more complicated problem since Cataclysm, where warrior damage moved from a few strong hits and empty globals, to being completely global capped and spamming many small hits (mastery procs, deep wounds, overpower, auto-attacks).

Solution:
1)   Move damage away from overpower to Mortal Strike
2)   Make slam consume thirst for blood procs for a lower rage cost and slightly increased crit chance, making slam and overpower interchangeable
3)   Buff overpower damage?

Posted ImageMortal strike

The last candidate that, unfortunately, no longer feels Mortal. It could use a damage buff and/or an increase in the Mortal Wounds debuff (only for warriors), increasing our usefulness and providing us with a meaningful PvP niche once again


Posted Image

View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#2 irubuwrongtime

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:10 PM

View PostBraindance, on 07 August 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:


That's braindance alright :)  I'd be happy even if they implement at least any one change from above suggestions you made.

Edited by irubuwrongtime, 07 August 2013 - 06:25 PM.


#3 Drevi

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:13 PM

Great post, I hope some dev is still lurking this forums

Quote

Colossus Smash


Purpose: To increase warrior damage significantly and provide burst windows

Issue:  Arms PvE dps is designed around doing tremendous damage while CS is up. However,  this creates the following problems
  • Our PvE damage is condensed in the duration of this debuff, which is approximately an 80% damage increase vs boss armor
  • However since it’s only 50% armor reduction in PvP, this translates to 10-17% damage increase vs players of varying armor. Therefore, we do not reap the large benefit that it provides in PvE, and because our damage is balanced around this debuff (i.e. significantly lower outside of CS), our PvP damage is not as strong as it’s supposed to be
Solutions:

1)   Make CS 50% both in PvE and PvP – increase duration to xx seconds
2)   Make CS 50% both in PvE and PvP – recalibrate damage of other DPS abilities (overpower, mortal strike etc)

3)   Make CS a passive buff, similar to Tiger Palm for monks, with an increased duration and reduced effect (30-40%)

Another possible solution would be to just remove CS interaction with armor. Make it a "increases damage tanken from the warrior by 60% (this is the increase it has vs bosses) for 6s."
Obviously it will need to have a reduced effect vs players.

Quote

Mortal strike

The last candidate that, unfortunately, no longer feels Mortal. It could use a damage buff and/or an increase in the Mortal Wounds debuff (only for warriors), increasing our usefulness and providing us with a meaningful PvP niche once again

Agree. Even a 5-10% increase would be enough.

#4 Moshe

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:18 PM

On top of increasing mortal debuff, I honestly think that warriors should be the only class with the MS effect due to lack of cc.

#5 slayerdark

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:27 PM

Ya giving MS to everyone was pretty bad, only rogues need it right now, maybe they won't even need it in 5.4, Mortal strike is now the buff/debuff applier and that is why we use it in our rotation, having some other mechanic to make overpower hit harder against enemies with more armor or absorbs, because it actually hurts rogues right now :P, becoming enraged when getting hit should be a feature also, the problem with increasing overpower damage is that it will override slam once again and slam does a trillion dmg on cooldowns, so the cd effectiveness/cds reduction is also needed... its a simple rotation with complicated problems on the devs part.

#6 Vexxius

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:27 PM

Greatly ideas, honestly. You hit the nail on revealing the shortcomings of Arms in PvP (while also noting how these same shortcomings aren't so apparent in PvE).

I'd vote:

Colossus Smash - "make CS a passive buff, similar to Tiger Palm for monks"
Enrage - any of the suggestions
Swifty macro - I like the idea of reduced CDs & reduced potency.
Stances - any of the suggestions
Overpower - I feel like the most likely change is a straight buff Overpower, as Arms is weak in PvE at the moment anyway.
Mortal Strike - an increased MS effect is every Warrior's dream...

#7 darklift

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:30 PM

Great post. Repped. Hope Holinka is reading this.

Also, so much this.

View PostMoshe, on 07 August 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

On top of increasing mortal debuff, I honestly think that warriors should be the only class with the MS effect due to lack of cc.

It's something I've been arguing in the official forums. Best way to indirectly increase warrior sustained pressure while keeping the rest of classes the same is by increasing the MS debuff for warriors only. Nothing big, just a 10% extra would be enough. That or since the other classes with the debuff aka Hunter, Warlock, Monk, do more pressure than the warrior anyway, lower theirs to 15 or 10%. I always thought MS was a warrior niche kind of like how Necrotic is DK only, and that extra mana usage debuff was feral only. But then blizz just handed out the MS to every other class. Rogues can talent for an increased healing debuff if I'm not mistaken

#8 Covlol

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:44 PM

Great post Braindance!
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Lvl 1 Dk Legend Covlol

#9 dogknightskillclass

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 06:49 PM

Couldn't agree more with all of what you mentioned.

Especially this

Avatar increases all damage by 15% - duration reduced to 15 seconds from 24, cooldown reduced to 1.5 minute etc.

Would actually be a good way of making us get out of roots/novas etc just to counter-pressure, stay offensive or even to have to go defensive.

#10 Greymindz

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:02 PM

a realy gret post by a person that hasnt gave up yet on warriors. u completle understand what the problems are with warriors in pvp. i hope holinka will read this. great work keep it up.

#11 Drevi

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:04 PM

Quote

Issue: While overpower is a significant portion of our sustained damage, the fact that it does 105% weapon damage, even with a high crit chance (+60%) makes it hit like a wet noodle in PvP. This leads to damage that is not meaningful (i.e. cannot force cooldowns, cannot force casted heals, cannot force mana usage). This is a more complicated problem since Cataclysm, where warrior damage moved from a few strong hits and empty globals, to being completely global capped and spamming many small hits (mastery procs, deep wounds, overpower, auto-attacks).

You know what really grinds my gears about OP? When it doesn't crit.
Every time you press OP you have a 15% chance of wasting 10 rage and a gcd to do a 9k hit.

Just make the damn thing a guaranteed crit scaling off crit chance ala soulfire, or buff its damage and make it not able to crit.
That small RNG of hitting for nothing.. I hate it.

#12 Ansi

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:13 PM

Warrior damage balanced around Colossus Smash in PvP has been mentioned as a problem since Cataclysm beta.

For example

http://www.threadmet...lysm_PVP_Issue/

http://us.battle.net...opic/6079711793

http://hydramist.tv/...pvp-separately/

http://www.tankspot....-Colossus-Smash

http://wow.allakhaza...tml?story=25714

http://www.threadmet...P_in_Cataclysm/

Warriors need a massive overhaul. Mists of Pandaria looked good, but they removed most of what they gave us.

Basically we haven't changed since The Burning Crusade. Avatar = Deathwish, Stormbolt = Concussion Blow, Warbringer = Throwdown, Staggering Shout = Improved Hamstring, mocking Banner = mocking blow, demo banner = demo shout and no reason not to bake skull banner with recklessness.

Warriors are mobility and stuns. We're a simple go to class for beginners. But look at all the cool stuff monks can do? Put some effort into warriors plz.

#13 Braindance

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:19 PM

View PostAnsi, on 07 August 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Warrior damage balanced around Colossus Smash in PvP has been mentioned as a problem since Cataclysm beta.

For example

http://www.threadmet...lysm_PVP_Issue/

http://us.battle.net...opic/6079711793

http://hydramist.tv/...pvp-separately/

http://www.tankspot....-Colossus-Smash

http://wow.allakhaza...tml?story=25714

http://www.threadmet...P_in_Cataclysm/

Warriors need a massive overhaul. Mists of Pandaria looked good, but they removed most of what they gave us.

Basically we haven't changed since The Burning Crusade. Avatar = Deathwish, Stormbolt = Concussion Blow, Warbringer = Throwdown, Staggering Shout = Improved Hamstring, mocking Banner = mocking blow, demo banner = demo shout and no reason not to bake skull banner with recklessness.

Warriors are mobility and stuns. We're a simple go to class for beginners. But look at all the cool stuff monks can do? I don't mind playing a mediocre/bad class, but they need to take a good look at warriors.
We won't get an overhaul this exp, thus I just suggested number tweaks. I've already made overhaul threads LOL

View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#14 Häxantutto

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:19 PM

View PostMoshe, on 07 August 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

On top of increasing mortal debuff, I honestly think that warriors should be the only class with the MS effect due to lack of cc.

Exactly!

Great post by braindance! I hope someone forwards this to Holinka, maybe tweet him a link to this post or something, would be greatly appreciated!

Edited by Häxantutto, 07 August 2013 - 07:24 PM.

Posted Image
-------------------------------forever---------------duelist-------------------------------------
https://www.youtube....h?v=GLNJfWpIHLA

#15 dogknightskillclass

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:26 PM

View PostBraindance, on 07 August 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

Posted ImageOverpower

Purpose: The most used dps ability of Arms

Issue: While overpower is a significant portion of our sustained damage, the fact that it does 105% weapon damage, even with a high crit chance (+60%) makes it hit like a wet noodle in PvP. This leads to damage that is not meaningful (i.e. cannot force cooldowns, cannot force casted heals, cannot force mana usage). This is a more complicated problem since Cataclysm, where warrior damage moved from a few strong hits and empty globals, to being completely global capped and spamming many small hits (mastery procs, deep wounds, overpower, auto-attacks).

Solution:
1)   Move damage away from overpower to Mortal Strike
2)   Make slam consume thirst for blood procs for a lower rage cost and slightly increased crit chance, making slam and overpower interchangeable
3)   Buff overpower damage?

I seriously want rage cost on Overpower removed again as well, that's probably one of the things I want most atm.
Obviously change Taste for Blood then as well I guess.

#16 Thebestlol

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:30 PM

Considering blizzard's track record, its pretty safe to say, that: With only a few weeks left till 5.4, we will not get any more significant changes. They will just do a silly, un-needed, easy bandaid Fix; like increasing mastery damage, or seasoned soldier by 10%, or haste scaling, to fix arms pve.  /Facepalm

Then they will say: "We gave warriors many small buffs coming in 5.4 and feel they should be competitive, since warriors are the top played class in BGs!

LOL

Good post though, +rep, at this point, I seriously doubt we will see anything significant enough, until the next expansion unfortunately.

Edited by Thebestlol, 07 August 2013 - 07:35 PM.


#17 Laydownx

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:44 PM

gr8 post! I feel like something should be done with mastery, it's pretty bland. Otherwise i feel the no1 culprit of us being shitty is colossus smash.

It's funny since warr's haven't had a good place since colossus smash got introduced. Broken in beggining of s9 (was 100%) and throughout other season shitty, exept for being broken in s 12 again.

#18 Thebestlol

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:52 PM

View PostLaydownx, on 07 August 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

gr8 post! I feel like something should be done with mastery, it's pretty bland. Otherwise i feel the no1 culprit of us being shitty is cololssus smash.

It's funny since warr's haven't had a good place since colossus smash got introduced. Broken in beggining of s9 (was 100%) and throughout other season shitty, exept for being broken in s 12 again.

right, mastery is another thing that sucks for warriors in pvp, because it is balanced around full uptime in pve, seems a little underwhelming in pvp with less uptime, resil, less uptime on cs (which significantly increases mastery damage in pve) and all the passive/shields dmg reductions in pvp.

The reason warriors were over the top in s12, is because blizzard missed the obvious CS problem, and tried to add more utility than needed, with gag order, avatar, and 20s shockwave, and rng heroic strike one shot, combined with swifty macros... sometimes the biggest problems go under the radar (usually) then they overcompensate, then completely gut a spec later, resulting in s5/s10/s11/s13 warrior over-nerfs.

Sometimes I wonder if the dev's even play the same game we do...

#19 Ansi

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:53 PM

View PostBraindance, on 07 August 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

We won't get an overhaul this exp, thus I just suggested number tweaks. I've already made overhaul threads LOL

They are done with mechanical changes for 5.4

http://us.battle.net...4731410?page=46

#20 Braindance

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:55 PM

View PostHäxantutto, on 07 August 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

Exactly!

Great post by braindance! I hope someone forwards this to Holinka, maybe tweet him a link to this post or something, would be greatly appreciated!
Already twitted now need supportzzzzzzzzzzz

Posted Image

View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...





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