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A way to solve the Hybrid issue


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#41 Braindance

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 02:30 AM

View PostAvarencex, on 06 August 2013 - 02:27 AM, said:

Oh man I had already said battle fatigue might not have to be changed, you keep parroting it as your main argument, plz stop.
Then it's gonna be even worse since no healer would be able to keep up lol. MS is simply not the right way, right now. If they marginally buff it by like 5% then yes. Just try to think of the consequences.

View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#42 Avarencex

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 02:36 AM

View PostBraindance, on 06 August 2013 - 02:30 AM, said:

Then it's gonna be even worse since no healer would be able to keep up lol. MS is simply not the right way, right now. If they marginally buff it by like 5% then yes. Just try to think of the consequences.

Since MS already exists and how its mostly non-existant in competitive arena, it's obvious MS in it's current form is completely useless in 3s. asking for a 10-20% increase in the MS effect isn't asking for much. having it be between 35-45% seems best, and a PTR would be best to test this.

#43

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 02:37 AM

A common thing I hear a lot is that hybrid off heals is part of their defensiveness and without it they'd just die instantly. What about if hybrids could only heal themselves? Wouldn't that solve the issue without giving pure dps niche utility? Pure classes already have little bits of self heal so it'd kind of make it equal in that aspect.

Edited by Qan, 06 August 2013 - 02:39 AM.


#44 Pritchard

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 03:31 AM

i wish they would just get rid of hybrid heals all together.  i fucking hate hybrids worse than anything else in the game.


delete all heals from non healing specs and fuck off.

#45 Enyalius

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 03:33 AM

View PostQan, on 06 August 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:

A common thing I hear a lot is that hybrid off heals is part of their defensiveness and without it they'd just die instantly. What about if hybrids could only heal themselves? Wouldn't that solve the issue without giving pure dps niche utility? Pure classes already have little bits of self heal so it'd kind of make it equal in that aspect.

There is one thing thats wrong here tho. I will take a warrior and a ret pala as an example:

Warr has second wind, ~35% selfheal that is so low its like "where dem numbers at son"
Ret has on-demand heals.

The warr figures hey lets kite this bastard, and goes behind the pillar, turtle-style.
The warrior will still stay at 35%

The ret does the same this time, except he can heal himself to full and STILL HAVE MANA TO DO DMG.

This is what is dumb with hybrid specs. Also it was an example, it doesnt happen often, seeing as ppl tunnel hybrids alot today.

At least Blizz were smart enough to remove Void Shift / Swap or w/e its called from Spriests in arena. :ph34r:

Hate that ability more than ANYTHING IN THIS FUCKIN WORLD! (jk ele sham)

Edited by Enyalius, 06 August 2013 - 03:34 AM.

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#46 Crawthz

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:02 AM

Nerf PvP Power percentage affecting heals on hybrids to same level as they are on pure dps classes and we're done. Or just make it not affected.
www.twitch.tv/crawthz - Gladiator Frostmage stream, please follow!

#47 Jontex

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 11:59 AM

Are you sure the problem with hybrids isnt their tremors and sacs and not to talk about ele dmg and also retris and enhance working so well with hunters? Main problem with spriests was their fast MDs and swap which they nerfed. Would be intresting to see anyone losing a game because of the other team having such beastly offheals.
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#48 Shrouds

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 12:19 PM

I think it's really simple:
A. You make each class exactly the same for melee, ranged, and healing
or
B. Hybrid Tax (meaning a class that can heal cannot do the same damage or abilities as a class that cannot)
Right now Blizzard is doing A

#49 Hofflerand

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 04:15 PM

there isn't some fundamental problem with hybrids. the balance wheel continues to turn and in 5.3 warrior and rogue didn't do so hot. are we truly already forgetting 5.0 (war dominance), 5.1 (war dominance), and 5.2 (rogue dominance)? how about hunter, a pure class that over the course of MoP has been hands down more successful than anything else?

war and rogue are getting some nice buffs in 5.4. just wait and relax, maybe play an alt for the next few weeks. people who whine about hybrids as a whole (not necessarily the OP) and want a return to the pure class dominance levels of TBC disgust me. they're so entitled

#50 Hackattack3

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 04:36 PM

Can't believe no one has mentioned this yet but,

It's fun playing a hybrid and being able to heal i.e. do things other than damage.

That should not be removed from the game.  The problem at the moment is that you don't really lose resources/downtime to heal and get back out there to tunnel/do damage.

If you go oom as a boomer delete your character, el shammys have clearcasting, rets have holy power charges and spriests have disperse around every corner.

A slight modification should be done so when hybrids heal they lose some resources attributed to damage.

#51 Hofflerand

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 04:42 PM

View PostHackattack3, on 06 August 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

Can't believe no one has mentioned this yet but,

It's fun playing a hybrid and being able to heal i.e. do things other than damage.

That should not be removed from the game.  The problem at the moment is that you don't really lose resources/downtime to heal and get back out there to tunnel/do damage.

If you go oom as a boomer delete your character, el shammys have clearcasting, rets have holy power charges and spriests have disperse around every corner.

A slight modification should be done so when hybrids heal they lose some resources attributed to damage.
this isn't really true. holy power is Ret's DPS resource so WoG definitely causes downtime. selfless healer doesn't cause downtime, but requires Judgment x3 (~15 sec) to reach full power and make FoL instant

heart of the wild could probably have its CD and effect both decreased, but outside of it moonkin healing isn't that amazing

#52 a1entity

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 04:56 PM

It just lol that i am on ele just can stand there and heal myself to full and still be ok on mana in arena. That paired with stupid rng damage that ele produces.
"Balanced game" but def fun if you play right class.

#53 mirox

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 05:03 PM

People that actually defend hybrid healing are obviously not playing the same game as the rest of us do. Especially 2 hybrids + healer, resulting in "shit, we are losing" triple healer mode enabled! Just makes me sick whenever I see it... As for "boomkins don't really heal that much" this just makes me rofl.

#54 Wallirik

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 05:05 PM

the truly most disgusting thing about hybrid healing is prayer of mending.

vs dots that is. oh my god it's retarded

#55 Hackattack3

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 07:25 PM

View PostHofflerand, on 06 August 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

this isn't really true. holy power is Ret's DPS resource so WoG definitely causes downtime. selfless healer doesn't cause downtime, but requires Judgment x3 (~15 sec) to reach full power and make FoL instant

heart of the wild could probably have its CD and effect both decreased, but outside of it moonkin healing isn't that amazing

Sure you are losing a "resource" i.e. holy power but nothing that causes significant downtime like having to get out of combat and drink.

Moonkin healing not being that amazing?   lol.  You just wait till 5.4 when NS is baseline and they're running around w/ double Hots.  There's currently a significant difference between balance and feral healing outside of HotW.



Bottom line:  Hybrid healing is fun and people enjoy the playstyle it is just a bit "too" good at the moment.  Ever since they introduced battle fatigue I thought they should introduce "mana regen" fatigue, even if only 10-15%

#56 Braindance

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 07:38 PM

View PostHofflerand, on 06 August 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

there isn't some fundamental problem with hybrids. the balance wheel continues to turn and in 5.3 warrior and rogue didn't do so hot. are we truly already forgetting 5.0 (war dominance), 5.1 (war dominance), and 5.2 (rogue dominance)? how about hunter, a pure class that over the course of MoP has been hands down more successful than anything else?

war and rogue are getting some nice buffs in 5.4. just wait and relax, maybe play an alt for the next few weeks. people who whine about hybrids as a whole (not necessarily the OP) and want a return to the pure class dominance levels of TBC disgust me. they're so entitled
heheheheheheheheehehehehe

Rogues and wars are still the weakest on the PTR. Those buffs haven't had any significant impact in their viability. Enh is still retarded, ret/feral scaling made them do as much damage as dks do currently (and more bursty). Monk is the future, because they have by far the best damage on the PTR (hello tiger's eye brew 60%+ dmg up 30% of the time), supreme utility and decent healing, but I'd rather lose to a good monk on the PTR that one shots me eventually, that to any shittler hunter/feral/ret/enh, because monk=skill.

Nothing changes compared to live as far as class balance goes - hunter, ele, enh, ret, feral, disc are still supreme, with the addition of dps monks and resto druids.

Rogues, warriors and dks to an extent, will never be on par with those specs unless their damage is buffed to infinity, simply because they bring almost nothing to the team apart from damage or control in the case of rogues.

Ain't gonna whine though as a I promised - waiting for number pass to resume whining. But please don't compare rogue or warrior dominance to those hybrids, because they are classes not specs. If I could go fury instead of arms when arms became shit I wouldn't whine, but I can't.

View Postjustchecking, on 10 November 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

Going to blizzcon looking for a fight is like going to the official wow arena forums for pvp advice :)

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#57 Kreeds

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 07:52 PM

View PostJontex, on 06 August 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Are you sure the problem with hybrids isnt their tremors and sacs and not to talk about ele dmg and also retris and enhance working so well with hunters? Main problem with spriests was their fast MDs and swap which they nerfed. Would be intresting to see anyone losing a game because of the other team having such beastly offheals.


Clearly a deluded swedish muppet you are.....

#58 mirox

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:05 PM

View PostBraindance, on 06 August 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

heheheheheheheheehehehehe

Rogues and wars are still the weakest on the PTR. Those buffs haven't had any significant impact in their viability. Enh is still retarded, ret/feral scaling made them do as much damage as dks do currently (and more bursty). Monk is the future, because they have by far the best damage on the PTR (hello tiger's eye brew 60%+ dmg up 30% of the time), supreme utility and decent healing, but I'd rather lose to a good monk on the PTR that one shots me eventually, that to any shittler hunter/feral/ret/enh, because monk=skill.

Nothing changes compared to live as far as class balance goes - hunter, ele, enh, ret, feral, disc are still supreme, with the addition of dps monks and resto druids.

Rogues, warriors and dks to an extent, will never be on par with those specs unless their damage is buffed to infinity, simply because they bring almost nothing to the team apart from damage or control in the case of rogues.

Ain't gonna whine though as a I promised - waiting for number pass to resume whining. But please don't compare rogue or warrior dominance to those hybrids, because they are classes not specs. If I could go fury instead of arms when arms became shit I wouldn't whine, but I can't.
Exactly my thoughts, its clear that buffing damage isn't an option, so they should tone down hybrid healing either by increasing mana cost on heals (making them so that mana actually matters) or putting like 20 sec cd on flash of light, healing surge,healing touch or whatever are the heals that these hybrids just spam all day. I would personally prefer if they nerfed them in a way that they cannot do damage if they have no mana, and they should spend their mana fast while offhealing.

Edited by mirox, 06 August 2013 - 08:07 PM.


#59 Zerud

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 08:29 PM

View PostHackattack3, on 06 August 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

Moonkin healing not being that amazing?   lol.  You just wait till 5.4 when NS is baseline and they're running around w/ double Hots.  There's currently a significant difference between balance and feral healing outside of HotW.
This is such an unhealthy change, they move moonkin survivability to healing instead of dmg reduction, this leads to more off-healing(which none wants) but less moonkin survival

#60 FuguFish

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:51 PM

The fact that hybrids heal for a lot is an obvious front-end problem. What I believe is the real problem is that damage is so on-demand.

Hybrids healing for a large amount appears to be very foolproof. Warriors/Rogues/DKs appear to be very punishing classes to play (i.e. 1 mistake and you lose). On the face of it perhaps the healing from hybrids is OTT. With HotW certainly, but even then most people will agree that general hybrid healing is certainly nothing to be scoffed at.

However it's very obvious that hunters/mages/locks are also doing very well regardless of being pure dps classes. You may say that it's because they can easily connect and that they have high uptime and high dps output. This is certainly true, but at the same time ferals have high uptime/utility and they can easily win without much offheals or even using HotW if they play well.

What I believe is that because doing damage is so easy, teams can afford to turtle, knowing that any cc long enough for teammates to pop swifty is enough to secure a kill. Therefore, as long as they live through pressure they can instantly counter-pressure. If setting up for a kill required teams to clean buffs and to having consistent pressure/control then a scatter/trap from a hunter is no longer so scary. This is especially seen in the pure melee dps classes. All of which currently require large amounts of setting up and general uptime in order to create any sort of pressure. This is also why large amounts of instant cc is especially bad. On-demand cc with on-demand damage means you control the pace of the game and you control what happens whilst the other team is still setting up.




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