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No appropriate ww monk changes on ptr???

monk ww windwalker ptr nothing changed

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#1 Neverever

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 10:07 PM

All they've done is increase damage and healing which no one asked for. In addition to this they introduced some useless glyphs to let us play more like a ret and heal teammates. There were plenty of good suggestions on this forum:

- paralysis on cyclone dr or on its own dr
- touch of karma undispellable
- zen mediation only broken by interrupts

And this was only the tip of the iceberg. There were pleeeeeeenty more good balance and QoL changes suggested but nothing happens??????

Do they really think monks are mechanically fine atm? Do you think monks are mechanically fine atm?

Rogues bitched and got a lot of changes. Warriors saw what rogues were doing and started a mega bitch thread and finally got intervene breaking roots baseline. Maybe more monks need to bitch or bitch harder?????

All I see on this section of the forum is the same 5 - 10 people posting. Are there even enough monks for them to give a shit about?

What are everyone else's thoughts?

View PostDizzeeyo, on 16 July 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages

#2 Djandawg

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 10:27 PM

Monks have unreal peels, mobility, cast interruption etc. Now their damage is broken on PTR.  So to summarize, the class with most tools does unhealable damage.
I guess you will have to live with the emotional trauma caused by 15 sec cd paralysis sharing DR with disorients or the bullshit dot from touch of karma being dispellable.

#3 Yubel

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 10:37 PM

I can't even believe I'm seeing a monk complaining about a damage buff.

Your class' peels are ridiculous. I can almost NEVER land a kill versus a decent WW / X comp in 2s.

5 Second throwdown into 3 second silence into an 8 second Disarm into a a year incapacitate, into a millennium disarm into a decade stun. By the time all over those are over, the 5-second legsweep is up again and ready to be DR'd. And so the rotation begins again.

Also, to top it off, you're unable to be slowed for several seconds along with GODLY mobility and a teleport.

You guys weren't exactly lacking in damage in the first place, but really?....
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#4 Neverever

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 10:40 PM

View PostDjandawg, on 03 August 2013 - 10:27 PM, said:

Monks have unreal peels, mobility, cast interruption etc. Now their damage is broken on PTR.  So to summarize, the class with most tools does unhealable damage.
I guess you will have to live with the emotional trauma caused by 15 sec cd paralysis sharing DR with disorients or the bullshit dot from touch of karma being dispellable.

No one wants broken unhealable damage. No one wants to win because of gimmicky things like that in the same way that no hunter wanted to be forced to play bm over mm.

Revert the damage buffs and provide the real and sensible buffs the entire ww monk pvp community (all 10 of them) were asking for.

Additionally, the numbers are still being adjusted and I'm sure that we will see a decrease in the damage output of monks on ptr but I doubt we will see any appropriate buffs given.

The peels are far from unreal. They are good but do not exaggerate. Many classes have better peels (ferals, mages, locks etc.). I agree mobility is one of the best but also dodgy in its implementation (e.g. being cced mid roll/fsk, roll jumping, no reliable ranged root/snare etc.) and it requires a skilful monk to use it to its fullest so it's acceptable. Cast interruption is probably too good mainly due to blanket silence on spear hand strike and this should be addressed which everyone agrees to. A choice also needs to be made between ring of peace and leg sweep so if you go for anti-caster talenting you have to sacrifice general peelability.

There are problems and issues with the current toolkit that you wouldn't understand as an outsider unless you've actually played monk. Many great suggestions were posted here on this forum and they continue to be ignored.

And what has been requested is not unreasonable. There are many more unreasonable things in this game.

View PostDizzeeyo, on 16 July 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages

#5 Neverever

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 10:49 PM

View PostYubel, on 03 August 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

I can't even believe I'm seeing a monk complaining about a damage buff.

Your class' peels are ridiculous. I can almost NEVER land a kill versus a decent WW / X comp in 2s.

5 Second throwdown into 3 second silence into an 8 second Disarm into a a year incapacitate, into a millennium disarm into a decade stun. By the time all over those are over, the 5-second legsweep is up again and ready to be DR'd. And so the rotation begins again.

Also, to top it off, you're unable to be slowed for several seconds along with GODLY mobility and a teleport.

You guys weren't exactly lacking in damage in the first place, but really?....

Please do not talk about 2s. In addition to knowing the rule that the game is balanced around 3s you should know that many things which are broken in 2s are more than fine in 3s where you have an extra player to counter their execution (dominate mind being quite a good example). If you want to use this line of reasoning then we can start talking about dks and how most of what they can do should be removed....

I also saw you defending double death grip in the dk thread whereas you seem to have a problem with the monk toolkit which is also quite ironic.

Again do not exaggerate - spear hand strike is a 2 second silence not 3 and requires you to be facing the target - leg sweep is a 5 second stun but it drs with fists of fury - paralysis is only 4 seconds from the front and is on an awful and inappropriate dr - disarm does not last for 8 seconds in pvp in addition to the disarm reduction on weapon chains being involved - also you are talking about a cc chain and there are not many classes that will be affected equally negatively by disarms and silences.....

And really, linking all the duration of all the cc monks have strung together is no worse than 2 polymorphs or fears which are spammable in a game with 8 second dispels not to mention all the other cc these casters have......

My point is, just listing abilities doesn't prove anything.

The class needed adjustments but these were the wrong adjustments.

View PostDizzeeyo, on 16 July 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages

#6 Marshmellow

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 11:57 PM

I think the thing most of you don't realize is that the biggest buff to WW will be when other classes get toned down, mages/eles/ferals/rets/enhance/hunters do either too much damage, too much cc or too much of both, WW monks like DKs/warriors/rogues require constant heals to stay offensive and the playstyle of WW requires you to be offensive as much as possible because of tigereye brew and the fact that we need to constantly peel to keep ourselves/teammates alive and 99% of our peeling tools are melee range abilities. WW did amazing damage on the PTR before the TeB change even hit because of the higher stats on gear that WW scales incredibly with.

WW doesn't need adjustments, other classes do

Edited by Marshmellow, 03 August 2013 - 11:58 PM.


#7 Djandawg

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 12:21 AM

View PostNeverever, on 03 August 2013 - 10:40 PM, said:

No one wants broken unhealable damage. No one wants to win because of gimmicky things like that in the same way that no hunter wanted to be forced to play bm over mm.

Revert the damage buffs and provide the real and sensible buffs the entire ww monk pvp community (all 10 of them) were asking for.

Additionally, the numbers are still being adjusted and I'm sure that we will see a decrease in the damage output of monks on ptr but I doubt we will see any appropriate buffs given.

The peels are far from unreal. They are good but do not exaggerate. Many classes have better peels (ferals, mages, locks etc.). I agree mobility is one of the best but also dodgy in its implementation (e.g. being cced mid roll/fsk, roll jumping, no reliable ranged root/snare etc.) and it requires a skilful monk to use it to its fullest so it's acceptable. Cast interruption is probably too good mainly due to blanket silence on spear hand strike and this should be addressed which everyone agrees to. A choice also needs to be made between ring of peace and leg sweep so if you go for anti-caster talenting you have to sacrifice general peelability.

There are problems and issues with the current toolkit that you wouldn't understand as an outsider unless you've actually played monk. Many great suggestions were posted here on this forum and they continue to be ignored.

And what has been requested is not unreasonable. There are many more unreasonable things in this game.

I understand your points, really and majority of them make sense , with the exception of monk peels being far from unreal. A monk can pick one melee, root him into 6 sec paralysis into disarm , into stun, into another full root into another 6 sec paralysis. None of this is dispellable.
Also paralysis can not be on dr with clone and keep in mind that number pass and damage adjustments are just random. Enhancement, ret, feral , elemental specs have been reported for doing too much damage, they all went through.
That said, just to give people who read this an idea, currently on PTR, 350k is the execute range when you are facing monks. If the rotation starts at anything below 350k, you die in the stun.

Edited by Djandawg, 04 August 2013 - 12:24 AM.


#8 Braindance

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 12:35 AM

Just had a ww tank me standing still on the PTR and spamming those bubbles, without receiving any outside heals.

So practically, I was doing a PvE target dummy rotation and he was standing still (as a target dummy) and his health wasn't moving.

On top of that, when we were hitting each other he was outdpsing me 2 to 1.  And when he was not hitting me I had no control of my character. And when I was trying to kill him he was flying Bruce Lee style then doing mumbo jumbo teleport shit Dalai Lama style.

Everything is cool and all, but the damage is literally as high as s5 dks. Of course the extremely retarded mechanics of s5 are not present (unbreakable armor. shadowfrost etc), but the damage is woah. Same damage as a ret+hunter does lol

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#9 Marshmellow

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 12:41 AM

View PostBraindance, on 04 August 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

Just had a ww tank me standing still on the PTR and spamming those bubbles, without receiving any outside heals.

So practically, I was doing a PvE target dummy rotation and he was standing still (as a target dummy) and his health wasn't moving.

On top of that, when we were hitting each other he was outdpsing me 2 to 1.  And when he was not hitting me I had no control of my character. And when I was trying to kill him he was flying Bruce Lee style then doing mumbo jumbo teleport shit Dalai Lama style.

Everything is cool and all, but the damage is literally as high as s5 dks. Of course the extremely retarded mechanics of s5 are not present (unbreakable armor. shadowfrost etc), but the damage is woah. Same damage as a ret+hunter does lol

I find it hard to believe that you couldn't dps through a WW spamming orbs with Battle fatigue + Mortal strike

unless they did some hidden buff to WW healing on the ptr, last time I did arenas on PTR my orbs crit me for 35k heals, 90k with 15 stack TeB up, and that was without MS up

Edited by Marshmellow, 04 August 2013 - 12:41 AM.


#10 Braindance

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 12:47 AM

View PostMarshmellow, on 04 August 2013 - 12:41 AM, said:

I find it hard to believe that you couldn't dps through a WW spamming orbs with Battle fatigue + Mortal strike

unless they did some hidden buff to WW healing on the ptr, last time I did arenas on PTR my orbs crit me for 35k heals, 90k with 15 stack TeB up, and that was without MS up
Ask Djanqt - I was playing with him. I wasn't paying attention to brew stacks. I ain't exaggerating tho - I swear.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#11 Marshmellow

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 01:09 AM

would have loved to test the healing on ptr but the first 2's match I did I got ele blast -> storm blasted for my entire health pool in half a global and logged off

#12 Dimyzuka

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 05:09 AM

View PostBraindance, on 04 August 2013 - 12:35 AM, said:

Just had a ww tank me standing still on the PTR and spamming those bubbles, without receiving any outside heals.

So practically, I was doing a PvE target dummy rotation and he was standing still (as a target dummy) and his health wasn't moving.


Maybe you should spend more time in game practicing and less time spewing garbage on AJ and begging for war buffs if you can't damage a monk through orbs as a warrior.

Also monks are now doing %30 less damage during max TEB burst on latest ptr update,

and they haven't addressed any of the many well known WW QOL problems.

Edited by Dimyzuka, 04 August 2013 - 05:15 AM.


#13 BalanceRexxar

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Posted 04 August 2013 - 08:33 PM

I think I've mentioned this before somewhere but I'll say it again. Blizzard keeps trying to buff monks by buffing their damage when it was never really needed. At first they made our TeB have a higher %, next they made RSK debuff 20% instead of 10%. And now this.

I think our peels are okay, we don't need a spammable CC like fear or poly.

What we need is passive defensive. I was playing just the other day on ATR and I get absolutely obliterated by Ret Hunter Disc and Beast Cleave. Ret Hunter pops all their cd's on me and in a scatter shot w/o a trap I'm down to like 20% and have to touch of karma. JK HAND OF PROTECTION. Then I die. I really need to work on ToKing pets but I shouldn't have to to begin with.

Granted the beast cleave was with a mw monk so he just leg swept my healer into a paralysis and I was down to 20% and had to ToK before getting 1 shot by ascendence but once it fell I got 1 shot by ascendence anyways.

Being leather without a damage reduction hurts really really bad.

#14 hid

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 04:04 AM

I really like the new mastery design but I agree we didn't really need that rework, certainly not ahead of them fixing some other stuff. After they lowered it to 60% at 10 stacks max, it does feel incredibly powerful (90% was obviously really broken). I would even say 60% is too high, BUT the thing is in comparison to most other classes on PTR it actually isn't, so if they were to lower this more it'd had to be done at the same time as a lot of other damage nerfs to other classes.

The thing I do like about the new mastery is the fact that it makes the game feel more smooth, I wrote a simple script to calculate how long it takes to generate a certain amount of TEB stacks. Here are some numbers (keep in mind that the generation can be incredibly random because of combo breaker procs plus the mastery being fairly low %, so you should consider these numbers as an average) it could very well take you 25 seconds to get 10 stacks even when using energizing brew but I do feel that this amount of RNG is acceptable as it makes you feel powerful when it stacks up to 10 really quickly, but doesn't make you too annoyed even if it takes 30 seconds.

[Base stats]
Mastery: 35.8%
Starting energy: 100
Energizing Brew: YES
Using pooled energy (100): YES

[Info] (these stats do not include chi/TEB gained from energizing brew/starting energy)
Energy/s: 11.93 (12.93 including Energizing Brew on CD)
TEB stacks/s: 0.318618486666667 (0.34532582 including Energizing Brew on CD)
TEB stacks/m: 19.1171092 (20.7195492 including Energizing Brew on CD)
TEB uptime: 51.798873%
Chi per second: 0.70387
Chi per jab: 2.36
Jabs per second: 0.29825

[Details]
Chi from EB/min: 3.54
TEB from EB/min: 1.60244
Chi from pooling: 5.9
TEB from pooling: 2.67073333333333

These stats include energizing brew/starting energy calculations
Time to 10 stacks: 17.9739309121067
Time to 15 stacks: 33.6666801066345
Time to 20 stacks: 49.3594293011623

These stats assume that you use 100% of your energy on jab, never energy cap and use energizing brew on CD.

(Some of the underlying calculations might not be obvious but I hope someone finds it interesting, feel free to ask for clarifications where needed. :) )

I obviously agree that the main thing we need is better survival. In what form doesn't matter too much (I'm fine with blizzard coming up with whatever, like sparring being %DR, giving us access to tanking stance, etc), but we need some way to be able to handle being trained, and I'd be willing to give up quite a bit of damage to get it. It has to be said though, with how fast we now generate TEB stacks, and how much extra healing +60% is, we might actually be OK. It's hard to tell from PTR games since opponents are so bad.

That being said, it is possible that monks could be in a pretty decent spot if they just address some of our more pressing QOL issues like "bugged" disable(hitbox/latency), xuen breaking ccs randomly(new ptr build had some changes to xuen lightning, not sure if they fixed it breaking ccs when they reworked it), ToK being immuneable, etc. We might end up having to use quite a few of our TEB stacks on defensive healing though, but that might be an interesting active survival aspect to the class (or it might end up being incredibly shitty seeing how we usually die while stunned, but I'm willing to give it a try :P)

Edited by hid, 05 August 2013 - 04:06 AM.


#15 Djandawg

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 05:02 AM

View Posthid, on 05 August 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

I really like the new mastery design but I agree we didn't really need that rework, certainly not ahead of them fixing some other stuff. After they lowered it to 60% at 10 stacks max, it does feel incredibly powerful (90% was obviously really broken). I would even say 60% is too high, BUT the thing is in comparison to most other classes on PTR it actually isn't, so if they were to lower this more it'd had to be done at the same time as a lot of other damage nerfs to other classes.
It  isn't high comparing to other classes? Are you participating this conversation using information obtained from youtube videos with pve trinkets? No class does monk level damage on ptr. As the game progresses, you are looking at a monk execute range, that is set to 350k(450k if you are unlucky or your class doesn't have reduction). Also this is unavoidable and untrinkettable damage.
Don't worry, Taste for Blood and Stampede went live after like 7 months of beta, so this can easily go live.
For monks to do this much damage, they need to lose half of their abilities, so that other classes can compete. I play 2 healing classes on PTR, the best healers, druid and priest, with 4 different dps classes. Every loss we took was to a monk oneshotting someone.

Edited by Djandawg, 05 August 2013 - 05:41 AM.


#16 hid

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 01:59 PM

View PostDjandawg, on 05 August 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

It  isn't high comparing to other classes? Are you participating this conversation using information obtained from youtube videos with pve trinkets? No class does monk level damage on ptr. As the game progresses, you are looking at a monk execute range, that is set to 350k(450k if you are unlucky or your class doesn't have reduction). Also this is unavoidable and untrinkettable damage.
Don't worry, Taste for Blood and Stampede went live after like 7 months of beta, so this can easily go live.
For monks to do this much damage, they need to lose half of their abilities, so that other classes can compete. I play 2 healing classes on PTR, the best healers, druid and priest, with 4 different dps classes. Every loss we took was to a monk oneshotting someone.

Since the nerf down to 60% this isn't really true any more. For that to happen now you'd need a human monk with engi glove enchant, ofc both trinkets up and then you'd need to crit 5 out of 5 FoF hits, basically monks now have the burst potential of shamans etc. Or put in another way, we do 15-20% more damage during TEB than we did before (which translates into 5-7.5% more overall damage in pvp) compared to 5.3.

#17 Djandawg

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 08:36 PM

Not true and I am not talking about the %90 period. This is with %60 and it happened to me tons of times, with many different players. I don't think all those people formed a syndicate of ww monks and leveled engineering on live and transferred here to one shot people.
I have been critted 90-100k+ per fof hit numerous times, assuming you know what you are talking about or you are telling the truth, those guys were members of the PTR syndicate, then ptr premade chars are expected to do like 75-85k crits?
Here, another victim of people invading PTR with op trinkets and professions:
http://www.arenajunk...ng-about-monks/

In reality,monks kill people from 350-450k range on PTR, consistently, again how do I know? Because all my losses are to this bs and I played 120 games on PTR.

Edited by Djandawg, 05 August 2013 - 09:55 PM.


#18 Syncrow

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 03:33 AM

View PostDjandawg, on 05 August 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

Not true and I don't think all those people formed a syndicate of ww monks.
In reality,monks kill people from 350-450k range on PTR, consistently, again how do I know? Because all my losses are to this bs and I played 120 games on PTR.

this discussion is so pointless... you are complaining about monk dmg beeing too much...yeah you are right, like all other monks said before...so i don't get the point...

Blizzard are the evil ones, not us...

If you're looking at the newest threads here in the monk forum, you will not find any seriously meant post of buffing monks dmg...

#19 hid

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 07:10 AM

Yes, the damage is high, but my point is that our damage is actually only 5-7.5% higher on average, and ~20% higher dmg during TEB. It's not like we did no damage before and now we instakill shit. Damage is just high in general on PTR, and a lot of classes, not only monks, are doing crazy bursts.

Also, you use your "150" games on PTR as some kind of objective proof of something (and unless I misunderstand, you aren't actually playing a monk yourself, you just base this off of games you play vs other monks?) I've actually played monk myself on the PTR, and I've done so between each PTR build so I know exactly how each build has affected us. I'm telling you that you're exaggerating when comparing monks to other classes in terms of burst.

In reality MOST CLASSES kill people from 250-300k range on PTR, consistently, again how do I know? Because I actually play monk, both on live and PTR.

In addition, the post you linked with screenshots of high damage says absolutely nothing. You get no information on what gear was used, what comps, what PTR build, what procs are up etc. Also he had several flat out incorrect statements, like FoF being 30 sec CD (it's 25). The funniest thing is the guy trying to make it sound like FoF is unavoidable... put 1 pet on the monk or stay grouped up and FoF becomes a stun ability that you cancel after the 1st tick instead of using for damage. Ie, don't be isolated. (yes, it does a lot of damage, not saying it's fine as it is but random nerf whine based on flawed assumptions/information about the monk class does not help anyone.)

Edited by hid, 06 August 2013 - 07:25 AM.


#20 hid

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 07:26 AM

View PostSyncrow, on 06 August 2013 - 03:33 AM, said:

this discussion is so pointless... you are complaining about monk dmg beeing too much...yeah you are right, like all other monks said before...so i don't get the point...

Blizzard are the evil ones, not us...

If you're looking at the newest threads here in the monk forum, you will not find any seriously meant post of buffing monks dmg...

Agreed.





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