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#81 Mirionx

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 08:15 AM

View PostGuniteq, on 26 July 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

+ maybe give back instant blinding light.

That is the last thing they should do..

#82 Megorix

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 07:45 PM

70% Spell pushback resistece and 20-35% passive fear reduction would be fantastic QoL changes.

#83 pyrellael_3428244

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 04:54 PM

View PostMegorix, on 27 July 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

70% Spell pushback resistance and 20-35% passive fear reduction would be fantastic QoL changes.
I say this, get ignored it needs to get added. Wish I had a twitter to tell holinka, cause the wow forums ignore meh. :D

http://us.battle.net...opic/9572297452 (pushback resist topic) Someone had to start it!

Edited by pyrellael_3428244, 30 July 2013 - 05:15 PM.


#84 Northernlol

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 05:37 PM

I find all the debate about additional Holy Paladin CC (fears) and HoTs frustrating from a class homogenization standpoint.  Years ago I started playing Holy Paladin because we were the "defensive" healer.  We fit well in fairly aggressive comps where our defensive cooldowns and the nature of our gameplay complimented those comps well.  Teams that swapped to us did so at the risk of our teammates punishing them because hpals were incredibly hard to take down.  I want more of that and less of everything else.  

Sac is near worthless as it is dispelled almost immediately as is bubble.  Bubble used to be a pivotal cooldown that allowed us to top ourselves and partners off and often a cooldown that if the opposing team couldn't force would cost them the match.  Now it is dispelled almost as fast as it comes on and is only merely a trinket at best.  

I stopped playing during cata because of how prolific control had become and how easily holy paladins were subjected to it.  I came back for MoP mostly out of pure love of arenas and a few long time friends returning only to find control is every bit as bad and burst damage is through the roof.  You only need to look at the ongoing debate in Zilea's thread to be reminded of out of control burst and stacking is. Decisive and intelligent cooldown management and positioning made for incredibly rewarding gameplay.  Currently the game play is horribly unrewarding and matches shouldn't be decided by blowing every cooldown within the first 20 seconds.
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#85 Evilcow

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 11:32 PM

View Postpyrellael_3428244, on 30 July 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

I say this, get ignored it needs to get added. Wish I had a twitter to tell holinka, cause the wow forums ignore meh. :D

http://us.battle.net...opic/9572297452 (pushback resist topic) Someone had to start it!


#86

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 11:45 PM

View PostNorthernlol, on 30 July 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

I find all the debate about additional Holy Paladin CC (fears) and HoTs frustrating from a class homogenization standpoint.  Years ago I started playing Holy Paladin because we were the "defensive" healer.  We fit well in fairly aggressive comps where our defensive cooldowns and the nature of our gameplay complimented those comps well.  Teams that swapped to us did so at the risk of our teammates punishing them because hpals were incredibly hard to take down.  I want more of that and less of everything else.  

Sac is near worthless as it is dispelled almost immediately as is bubble.  Bubble used to be a pivotal cooldown that allowed us to top ourselves and partners off and often a cooldown that if the opposing team couldn't force would cost them the match.  Now it is dispelled almost as fast as it comes on and is only merely a trinket at best.  

I stopped playing during cata because of how prolific control had become and how easily holy paladins were subjected to it.  I came back for MoP mostly out of pure love of arenas and a few long time friends returning only to find control is every bit as bad and burst damage is through the roof.  You only need to look at the ongoing debate in Zilea's thread to be reminded of out of control burst and stacking is. Decisive and intelligent cooldown management and positioning made for incredibly rewarding gameplay.  Currently the game play is horribly unrewarding and matches shouldn't be decided by blowing every cooldown within the first 20 seconds.

Homogenization sucks but hots/reactive healing are necessary in todays game, and would be better for the game overall for paladins to get that rather then more cc immunity/breaks that promote rushdown kfc/beastcleave style play.

I think one of the biggest problems for paladins though are offensive dispels. There has never been a time where they are so prevalent, almost every single team has 2-3. Freedom/Sac/BoP are some of the best reasons to bring a paladin but its rare for them to last more then a few seconds. It's so ridiculously frustrating to Sac a scatter or PoM poly only to have it dispelled before the damage even transfers. I know to solve this problem a lot of people are asking for undispellable sac, but that would be bad for the game overall, I would rather just remove half the offensive dispels in the game, or make them less spammable.

#87 Avarencex

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 09:12 PM

I've read this thread and the common complaints I see are problems with Hand of Sacrafice and a lack of output in general.

A couple Ideas I believe would help holy paladin compete in MoP

1. Hand of Sacrafice is too easily dispelled and its cooldown is rediculous. I believe hand of sacrafice for holy paladins should be reduced to 1min 30secs in order to make paladins more consistant in the cooldown department. Also to help in the dispel problem, we can change a glyph and make it actually useful, Glyph of Flash of Light currently increases the healing of the next spell by 10%, I believe changing it to put a stackable buff, three times, up to 10% for 15- 20seconds and dispelable would be a good way to increase a number of "trash" buffs to protect spells like our hands from the amount of dispels currently in the game. If it isn't enough we can add other spells like divine light and holy light to add the buff as well, not holy shock because I believe it would be too op. Or we can have holy shock add the buff as well and make the stacks up 5 for a maximum of 10% increased healing for 15-20seconds. Sure it makes the glpyh similar to grace of disc priests but I think it would be better than mindlessly adding resistance to our buffs. This glyph will also increase our pitiful output that we currently have, two birds with one stone if you ask me.

2. Revert Battle Fatigue by around 10%. It was a bad change, and only made resto druids and disc priests that much better while other classes like monks shamans and paladins who relied on casted heals to compete that much worse. I know resto druids and discs would become more op themselves with this and would need nerfs in respons, but buffing other bottom tier classes closer to a competitive level outwieghs the con of also buffing already op classes.

3. Make gaurdian of the Ancient Kings a 3 minute cooldown, making it 5 minutes is way to long when most other classes use similar topping cooldowns like this much more easily (since they are shorter cooldown) and are usually better than gaurdian. If this is too much to ask then make avenging wrath 1:30min cooldown, it would actually make sancitified wrath a talent worth considering (for holy only X_X)

Too me, all of these changes are pretty conservative in nature and not that game breaking, tell me what you guys think

Edited by Avarencex, 01 August 2013 - 09:22 PM.


#88 Coconutciroc

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 01:14 AM

View PostAvarencex, on 01 August 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:


1. Hand of Sacrafice is too easily dispelled and its cooldown is rediculous. I believe hand of sacrafice for holy paladins should be reduced to 1min 30secs in order to make paladins more consistant in the cooldown department. Also to help in the dispel problem, we can change a glyph and make it actually useful, Glyph of Flash of Light currently increases the healing of the next spell by 10%, I believe changing it to put a stackable buff, three times, up to 10% for 15- 20seconds and dispelable would be a good way to increase a number of "trash" buffs to protect spells like our hands from the amount of dispels currently in the game. If it isn't enough we can add other spells like divine light and holy light to add the buff as well, not holy shock because I believe it would be too op. Or we can have holy shock add the buff as well and make the stacks up 5 for a maximum of 10% increased healing for 15-20seconds. Sure it makes the glpyh similar to grace of disc priests but I think it would be better than mindlessly adding resistance to our buffs. This glyph will also increase our pitiful output that we currently have, two birds with one stone if you ask me.


Really like this idea, could be useful if the dev's wanted to go this route as opposed to some type of CC reduction/break route. It's just sad that changes like these aren't likely to be addressed during this expansion.

#89 Malv

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 06:34 PM

View PostNorthernlol, on 30 July 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

Sac is near worthless as it is dispelled almost immediately as is bubble.  Bubble used to be a pivotal cooldown that allowed us to top ourselves and partners off and often a cooldown that if the opposing team couldn't force would cost them the match.  Now it is dispelled almost as fast as it comes on and is only merely a trinket at best.

Agreed.  Outside of using Sac to break an incoming poly/repentance or hope you can time it well against a hunter/rogue, it's become pretty useless.  Been playing my pally again lately and have yet to have it break a fear/hex even if it's not dispelled.

#90 pyrellael_3428244

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 08:44 AM

View PostAvarencex, on 01 August 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

I've read this thread and the common complaints I see are problems with Hand of Sacrafice and a lack of output in general.

A couple Ideas I believe would help holy paladin compete in MoP

1. Hand of Sacrafice is too easily dispelled and its cooldown is rediculous. I believe hand of sacrafice for holy paladins should be reduced to 1min 30secs in order to make paladins more consistant in the cooldown department. Also to help in the dispel problem, we can change a glyph and make it actually useful, Glyph of Flash of Light currently increases the healing of the next spell by 10%, I believe changing it to put a stackable buff, three times, up to 10% for 15- 20seconds and dispelable would be a good way to increase a number of "trash" buffs to protect spells like our hands from the amount of dispels currently in the game. If it isn't enough we can add other spells like divine light and holy light to add the buff as well, not holy shock because I believe it would be too op. Or we can have holy shock add the buff as well and make the stacks up 5 for a maximum of 10% increased healing for 15-20seconds. Sure it makes the glpyh similar to grace of disc priests but I think it would be better than mindlessly adding resistance to our buffs. This glyph will also increase our pitiful output that we currently have, two birds with one stone if you ask me.


I can't begin to tell you how many times I've Sac'd a scatter(same moment it was used on me) and then watch it get dispelled while there are, Dots on my partner + Damage being done and I see the damage being transfered to me on my SCT. and then it gets dispelled and I sit a full trap cause I already called that I sac'd scatter, in turn being forced to trinket or bubble to keep my partner alive.

Why the other team get rewarded for being outplayed because one or two of their partners can mash a button while I clearly already outplayed said hunter or w/e class by sacing the breakable cc is beyond me!

But I've already been shot down on tweaking what we already have by a lot of the community, I just think we need more reliable ways to avoid cc without getting something like nimble brew or tremor mechanic, something pre-emptive.

Inb4 unyielding faith, NO. I can say this probably won't affect games where it REALLY would be needed. Say for example you fight Ret/Hunter/disc. Hoj/Scatter/trap/silence/fear  are all on SEPERATE drs. all you're doing is taking a 29 second (ridiculously long) cc chain and making it (assuming unyielding faith was 30%) and making it a 26.6 second cc chain....
I REALLY don't think those 2.4 seconds are going to actually make a difference when I've seen players die in a scatter shot.

The only way a paladin can handle this by themselves is to sac the scatter and avoid the trap. Or to have their partners eat the trap and potentially get everyone feared anyway and end up in a worse spot then before because now no one can help the person being trained due to the fact that your other partner is feared or trapped. Which has happened to me quite often

Holy paladins are strong when, the melee the play with are strong IE DK/war/Hunter/Feral etc.

Holy paladins get weaker when it becomes more difficult to avoid cc, when is it difficult to avoid cc? when other classes can do it without chance of punishment, IE priest spectral guise/sprint shield. You cant really do much to stop them alot of times. Sure you can run away from them, but then you generally have to run into the open where their team mates that you were possibly avoiding well can now CC you.

Now that's just a prime example (not QQ)

Whats the solution? well if I knew for sure or if anyone knew it might have been done already.

All I know is a lot of the "issues" with holy paladins are more so the direction of the development of instant cc and how easy it is to use aoe cc without the ability to punish the user due to the mechanics of their class.

Just my late night insight on this =O

Edited by pyrellael_3428244, 13 August 2013 - 08:49 AM.


#91 Kionne

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 02:50 PM

View Postpyrellael_3428244, on 13 August 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:


Inb4 unyielding faith, NO. I can say this probably won't affect games where it REALLY would be needed. Say for example you fight Ret/Hunter/disc. Hoj/Scatter/trap/silence/fear  are all on SEPERATE drs. all you're doing is taking a 29 second (ridiculously long) cc chain and making it (assuming unyielding faith was 30%) and making it a 26.6 second cc chain....
I REALLY don't think those 2.4 seconds are going to actually make a difference when I've seen players die in a scatter shot.

Actually, 30% cc reduction on a 29 second cc chain would be 2.9 x 3 = 8,7 second reduction
Reduction on a 8s cc: from 8 to 5,6 seconds
30% is a lot man, dont understimate it D;

But yeah, I agree that hand of sac is kinda stupid now

#92 Megorix

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 03:17 PM

Gotta love putting up Sacrifice, only to have the damage nullified by our own mastery shield. That's the best...

Actually I just had a eureka moment... Although I'm sure it's been done before.

/stopcasting
/cast Hand of Sacrifice
/cancelaura Illuminated Healing

I wonder if that would make sacrifice more reliable for myself.

#93 talaax

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 03:18 PM

saddens me that the devs arent looking into this. honestly i dont think holy paladins are THAT bad, but changes like giving us trash buffs, or nerfing purge abilities (indirect buff to sac/freedom/bop) where it doesnt get dispelled before i blink my eyes, would be cool. or at least make bop not on global cooldown, or sac, something small like that would help a lot and wont make us retarded.

#94 Jim_Jim

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 09:51 AM

- Hand of purity Baseline?
-Impossible to dispel bop/sac for 2-3s after cast? ( But can be dispelled after).
-Change the "+10% HS" (PvP set bonus) to "+10% HS, Flash of light, Divine light"?
-Stay of Execution, 30s and undispellable? (With a glyph who reduce CD by 30s only for the heal version ?) I would love to have this spell instead of Prism, but Prism is 10x better now :(

Quote

1. Hand of Sacrafice is too easily dispelled and its cooldown is rediculous. I believe hand of sacrafice for holy paladins should be reduced to 1min 30secs in order to make paladins more consistant in the cooldown department. Also to help in the dispel problem, we can change a glyph and make it actually useful, Glyph of Flash of Light currently increases the healing of the next spell by 10%, I believe changing it to put a stackable buff, three times, up to 10% for 15- 20seconds and dispelable would be a good way to increase a number of "trash" buffs to protect spells like our hands from the amount of dispels currently in the game. If it isn't enough we can add other spells like divine light and holy light to add the buff as well, not holy shock because I believe it would be too op. Or we can have holy shock add the buff as well and make the stacks up 5 for a maximum of 10% increased healing for 15-20seconds. Sure it makes the glpyh similar to grace of disc priests but I think it would be better than mindlessly adding resistance to our buffs. This glyph will also increase our pitiful output that we currently have, two birds with one stone if you ask me.

Love this idea !

Edited by Karlagerfeld, 17 August 2013 - 09:53 AM.

Posted ImagePosted Image

#95 Vlada

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 10:36 PM

After playing some on PTR I realized

Posted Image

On the serious note. Turn Evil is ok but the range on it is soooo shit I cant see it being viable vs good teams cause you just get locked too much. New plea is really good and finally we have mana regen spell that is on par with other healer's. Other than that, damage is lower and games are longer but we still hurt so much once we are out of cooldowns so I doubt we can come close to druids and priests next patch

#96 Champion_re

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:19 PM

So... after reading through all threads... here are my top 3 solutions for fixing Holy-paladins:

1) 50% dispel resistance on Hand of Sacrifice
why? Automatically reduces the amount of enemy offensive dispels by 50% on Sac. The opponents might still be rewarded for trying to dispel it, while we also have a cc-breaker which sometimes actually work. Not as OP as 100% immunity to dispels.

2) 25% fear reduction
why? We are a class of, roleplaying wise, holy battle-fervor after all. Helps us vs the no.1 anti-hpala-cc.

3) Spell pushback resistance
why? Not my top solution but would be a slight buff.

#97 Ibrozz

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Posted 17 August 2013 - 11:37 PM

I think pallys are fine atm its just that everything else is better :( and the buffs they given us so far are pretty good and Turn Evil range as Vlada said is quite bad!

#98 Tryadin

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 09:25 PM

I can't say something that no one else has said already, from my experience we Hpalas struggle way to much when CC'd. I feel like if we could be able to use BoP, or Hand of Purity or something like that during stuns it would be way much easier, but the fact that it get's dispelled in matter of seconds doesn't help, I feel like it would be enough to save a teammate when we are in CC, even if it get's dispelled in some globals. Hand of Purity can for some reason be used while cloned, and BoP should also work during Clone.
2. Buff overall healing, when we have no healing cooldowns up we seem to struggle way to much. Since we have no strong hot's, no NS, or any strong insta-heal, except Prism, which dosen't heal that much without a crit is not good. We need to get higher overall healing, from all abilitys, or some kind of buff to a insta heal, similiar to Rdruids and Shamans NS. I feel like HA does this decently, but not good enough.
3. but the biggest problem of all, is that other healing classes are so much better then us, if they get nerfed we will be in a better spot, or other classes that work with holy paladins, (dk,warr,feral,enhshaman,hunter) gets buffed, even though I do not like the thought of that, so  just nerf other healers. (Priests, druids)

I feel like that was my main concerns.

#99 lanayax

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 05:52 PM

holy sux so bad wehnever i fight rogues i just ide? mutialte is op

#100 Guniteq

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 03:53 AM

As long as hpala will be that much cooldown dependent as it is while hots/shields are getting nerfed to give us a "recognizable class" in cost of things which are completly needed in todays game, tbh we are fucked. Depending on playstyle in overall pala is decent BUT other healing clases are favored above us because they are having better synergy and their passive healing or/and shields are way more worth that a paladin who is sitting in spamable chain of instant cc.

If priests would be considered as a top tier healer then all of the paladins are just going to be in the same state as they are now. Nothing will change because priest can easily take a paladins place in almost of "pala designed" setups and do well.

I am looking forward for some meaningfull buffs rather that nerfs on the only ones good abilities. And ye i have hope that disc/holy and rdruids wll get nerfed to competetive lvl on which are paladins/monks and shamans in next patch and they will not achive god status.

Brace yourselve fellow lighbringers, patch is coming.





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