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Holy: what is our biggest problem?

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#1 kubu

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:37 AM

Just wondering what the general paladin population think about holy's biggest problems and how they can be improved if not fixed.

I find that:
  • Survivability is a huge problem. Bubble is the only real thing that stops most classes from killing us in a global and can be dispelled.
  • Holy seems very susceptible to crowd control. Two charges of sacrifice which can be dispelled and doesn't work on most CC's.
  • Heals seem really weak and once we are out of cooldowns (divine favour/avenging wrath/guardian) keeping people up becomes really difficult.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I feel that every comp a paladin plays would do better with another healer. Possible fixes I thought of were:
  • Lowering the CD of Aura mastery - Lowering the CD of hand of sacrifice.
  • Keep the beacon of light shield which puts a shield on the beacon-ed target or user if they go below a certain percentage of health.
  • Making a new hand similar to hand of protection but stops all magic damage instead of physical causing forbearance just like HoP.
  • Divine protection should be usable even when silenced with its CD increased - let's face it every class with a silence now uses it with the stun to global us since the change.
I would really like to hear your thoughts on these changes. i honestly believe that they are needed considering our current state.
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#2 Gsgsgsgsgs

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:49 AM

View Postkubu, on 18 July 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:

  • Lowering the CD of Aura mastery - Lowering the CD of hand of sacrifice.

  • Keep the beacon of light shield which puts a shield on the beacon-ed target or user if they go below a certain percentage of health.

  • Making a new hand similar to hand of protection but stops all magic damage instead of physical causing forbearance just like HoP.

  • Divine protection should be usable even when silenced with its CD increased - let's face it every class with a silence now uses it with the stun to global us since the change.
I only agree with your third idea. All the other ones just dumb the class down so much. The only problem is that people are just choosing discs/rdruids over hpallys because they have better CC/control and are able to keep their team playing offensive for longer periods of time.

#3 Eazymothafukne

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 07:59 AM

Probably because we have no real ways to avoid cc or get out of cc. Sac gets dispelled instantly so does bop and healing without cooldowns vs cleaves cause us to go oom unlike a disc/holy priest or resto druid.
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#4 Felie

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:31 PM

View Postkubu, on 18 July 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:

Just wondering what the general paladin population think about holy's biggest problems and how they can be improved if not fixed.

I find that:
  • Survivability is a huge problem. Bubble is the only real thing that stops most classes from killing us in a global and can be dispelled.

  • Holy seems very susceptible to crowd control. Two charges of sacrifice which can be dispelled and doesn't work on most CC's.

  • Heals seem really weak and once we are out of cooldowns (divine favour/avenging wrath/guardian) keeping people up becomes really difficult.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I feel that every comp a paladin plays would do better with another healer. Possible fixes I thought of were:
  • Lowering the CD of Aura mastery - Lowering the CD of hand of sacrifice.

  • Keep the beacon of light shield which puts a shield on the beacon-ed target or user if they go below a certain percentage of health.

  • Making a new hand similar to hand of protection but stops all magic damage instead of physical causing forbearance just like HoP.

  • Divine protection should be usable even when silenced with its CD increased - let's face it every class with a silence now uses it with the stun to global us since the change.
I would really like to hear your thoughts on these changes. i honestly believe that they are needed considering our current state.


In terms of survivability, I personally feel it is fine since the DP change and allowing us to use it whilst stunned and your point raised about CC - true but that's the unfortunate Holy Paladin play style (max range and pillar hugging).

What are you reforging? I feel as if my heals are more than enough now I am going full crit/spirit and Holy Avenger is an amazing cooldown on a 2 minute CD.

The only change I would agree upon that you're suggesting is the Devotion Aura, but that is already on PTR with the new glyph change, so it's a big improvement.

#5 Mirionx

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:43 PM

Survival is fine just our casted heals are crap and fears mess us up

#6 kubu

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 02:01 AM

View PostFelie, on 18 July 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

In terms of survivability, I personally feel it is fine since the DP change and allowing us to use it whilst stunned and your point raised about CC - true but that's the unfortunate Holy Paladin play style (max range and pillar hugging).

What are you reforging? I feel as if my heals are more than enough now I am going full crit/spirit and Holy Avenger is an amazing cooldown on a 2 minute CD.

The only change I would agree upon that you're suggesting is the Devotion Aura, but that is already on PTR with the new glyph change, so it's a big improvement.

I've tried full haste and crit reforge. I enjoyed the fast repentance from haste. I did not have a problem with either but our heals do seem weaker than other classes. Got to 2100 as haste then dropped with crit so maybe haste is better for my comp. Is mastery a viable option?
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#7 kubu

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 02:03 AM

View PostMirionx, on 18 July 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

Survival is fine just our casted heals are crap and fears mess us up

I feel that a avoiding a deep freeze+counter+dead is hard vs a half decent mage.
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#8 Sweatyfingrs

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Posted 19 July 2013 - 02:13 AM

Because half the classes in the game look at you like a fat guy looks at ice cream and says "target acquired"
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#9 Mirionx

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 08:36 AM

View Postkubu, on 19 July 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:

I feel that a avoiding a deep freeze+counter+dead is hard vs a half decent mage.

Save DP for orb deep and you should be fine, maybe use BM during blanket but a mage can't really kill you with just deep blanket anymore

#10 pyrellael_3428244

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 09:25 AM

Sacrifice should be undispellable, and we should recieve the 70%pushback resistance on casts back( STILL don't have it). http://www.arenajunk...ack-resistance/

Our survival would be amazing if we didn't need to bubble to save our partners from death.

Battle fatigue affects us more than other healers since we sit more CC than other healers it's hard to pick people up from low health without a cd.

The reason sac shouldn't be dispellable.. There are PLENTY of times when. I sac scatter, sit ~2 seconds of the scatter somehow while i'm taking damage from it, then watch it get tranq'd off by the hunter forcing me to trinket or bubble

If you CC into sacrifice You don't deserve to be rewarded period, just make it undispellable. It doesn't even counter every cc, Just breakable ones. You can still make them sit full stuns, fears cyclones silences etc. Aka Not uncounterable.

TL:DR make sac undispellable and give back pushback resistance (aka concentration aura) And Hpala would feel less helpless.

Edited by pyrellael_3428244, 24 July 2013 - 09:36 AM.


#11 Champion_re

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:29 AM

I can only agree with Diffuse. Make HoSacrifice undispellable or at least a 50-80% chance of not being dispelled. This would solve alot of paladin problems.

1) It increases our survivability (I don't have to use bubble/trinket every time they dispell HoF)

2) It would solve our vulnerability to CCs. It's not just about breaking the CC, if your partner takes 30% less dmg while you are CCed, you might still have a living partner to save when the CC breaks.

3) Please do NOT remove the healing debuff from divine plea. I know it would make paladins stronger, but at the same time make the class much more boring. Knowing when to divine plea or not + if one should compensate with wings etc is a challenge. Removing the healing debuff just dumbs the whole class down to facesmashing the keyboard everytime DP is back from cd.

The more abilities which gives benefit A but drawback B makes room for a fun challenge of trying to improve one's skill. Please buff paladins in other ways that doesn't make the playstyle idiot-proof. Giving HoF resistance to dispells is a good start.

#12 pyrellael_3428244

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 10:48 AM

View PostChampion_re, on 24 July 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

I can only agree with Diffuse. Make HoSacrifice undispellable or at least a 50-80% chance of not being dispelled. This would solve alot of paladin problems.

1) It increases our survivability (I don't have to use bubble/trinket every time they dispell HoF)

2) It would solve our vulnerability to CCs. It's not just about breaking the CC, if your partner takes 30% less dmg while you are CCed, you might still have a living partner to save when the CC breaks.

3) Please do NOT remove the healing debuff from divine plea. I know it would make paladins stronger, but at the same time make the class much more boring. Knowing when to divine plea or not + if one should compensate with wings etc is a challenge. Removing the healing debuff just dumbs the whole class down to facesmashing the keyboard everytime DP is back from cd.

The more abilities which gives benefit A but drawback B makes room for a fun challenge of trying to improve one's skill. Please buff paladins in other ways that doesn't make the playstyle idiot-proof. Giving HoF resistance to dispells is a good start.
I like this guy, he knows my pain. Undispellable sac for at least holy pala's

Someone please tell me why pushback resist missing gets ignored everytime I open mah mouth about it >.>

Edited by pyrellael_3428244, 24 July 2013 - 10:49 AM.


#13 Quits

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 11:27 AM

undispellable sac sounds like a horrible idea that won't ever be implemented. the only thing wrong with paladins is no way to get out of fears.

#14 Djholyshockx

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 11:31 AM

Undispellable sac, why would you want that? DP whilst in silence why would you want that, you already have aura mastery to remove silences.
Heres a real problem: holy prism breaking cc (like traps etc)
The other problem isn't because somebody dispelled your sac, It's because whilst you eat that cc you had nothing that was healing your partner (eternal flame useless most of the time it wont outheal burst) like real hots, earth shield etc.
I think holy paladins are fine, i've been playing KFC at around 2500-2550 mmr this season, other healers just need to be nerfed, along with other damage classes.
But we need holy prism breaking cc fixed :)

#15 pyrellael_3428244

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 11:46 AM

View PostDjholyshockx, on 24 July 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Undispellable sac, why would you want that? DP whilst in silence why would you want that, you already have aura mastery to remove silences.
Heres a real problem: holy prism breaking cc (like traps etc)
The other problem isn't because somebody dispelled your sac, It's because whilst you eat that cc you had nothing that was healing your partner (eternal flame useless most of the time it wont outheal burst) like real hots, earth shield etc.
I think holy paladins are fine, i've been playing KFC at around 2500-2550 mmr this season, other healers just need to be nerfed, along with other damage classes.
But we need holy prism breaking cc fixed :)
So lets split this up. Why do I want undispellable sac? .... and I never said I wanted DP(wall) while silenced

It's because whilst you eat that cc you had nothing that was healing your partner (eternal flame useless most of the time it wont outheal burst) like real hots, earth shield etc.< You said this right? quote is above. Well that helps with damage taken while you're cc'd?

Using sac before a cc happens is somewhat skillful compared to say reacting to something and tremoring or nimble brewing a fear and whatnot. Why the hell wouldn't I want it?

Holy prism breaking cc? Watch how you use it? Don't use it to single target heal by using it on your dps. Use it on what your dps are killing so it AoE heals for similiar amounts.

Something for your partners while cc'd, HENSE Undispellable sacrifice being something better than nothing.

and.... I think holy paladins are fine, i've been playing KFC at around 2500-2550 mmr this season, other healers just need to be nerfed, along with other damage classes.? (your words yet again)
You're saying Oh we're fine, everything else just needs to be nerfed? You're contradicting yourself.

Edited by pyrellael_3428244, 24 July 2013 - 11:46 AM.


#16 pyrellael_3428244

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 11:51 AM

View PostQuits, on 24 July 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

undispellable sac sounds like a horrible idea that won't ever be implemented. the only thing wrong with paladins is no way to get out of fears.
Let me mend your statement.

We need better ways to avoid fears. For example priest shields themselves for sprint. Spectral guises> Runs at you and fears. You cannot HoJ them as they run in to stop them
Nor can you heal effeciently through heavy pressure and run away at the sametime.  

It's not about getting out of them it's being unable to avoid some of them

Now, why is my idea horrible? You give no reasoning as to why when you're cc'd your partner is taking less damage is not a good idea.

Also, I feel as though in this game I should be rewarded for playing better than the other team. In other words, If I put up sac and they CC into it with say scatter, they shouldn't be rewarded because their partner or even themselves sometimes instantly tranq shot it off before the scatter breaks and I sit a full trap and am definitely forced to trinket or bubble to save my partner.

Please explain to me why this is bad, I want to hear peoples reasoning. Not no that's bad

#17 Djholyshockx

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 11:56 AM

View Postpyrellael_3428244, on 24 July 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

Let me mend your statement.

We need better ways to avoid fears. For example priest shields themselves for sprint. Spectral guises> Runs at you and fears. You cannot HoJ them as they run in to stop them
Nor can you heal effeciently through heavy pressure and run away at the sametime.  

It's not about getting out of them it's being unable to avoid some of them

Now, why is my idea horrible? You give no reasoning as to why when you're cc'd your partner is taking less damage is not a good idea.

Also, I feel as though in this game I should be rewarded for playing better than the other team. In other words, If I put up sac and they CC into it with say scatter, they shouldn't be rewarded because their partner or even themselves sometimes instantly tranq shot it off before the scatter breaks and I sit a full trap and am definitely forced to trinket or bubble to save my partner.

Please explain to me why this is bad, I want to hear peoples reasoning. Not no that's bad

Because 24 seconds immunity to cc is over the top, for any class imo

#18 Mirionx

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 11:56 AM

View Postpyrellael_3428244, on 24 July 2013 - 09:25 AM, said:

TL:DR make sac undispellable and give back pushback resistance (aka concentration aura) And Hpala would feel less helpless.

Undispelable sac I'm not a fan off but we should have pushback resistance like all other healers.

To be honest I think Hand of Purity baseline and replace the talent with an on-use ability called Unyielding faith(the wrath one that reduced the duration of fears by -20%) that reduces the next duration of the next fear casted on you by 30 - 40%(not sure on value).

Just something new and fun to use and we're getting some help while healing thru dotcleaves which is extremely hard for us since almost all of our spells are single target and we got one "hot" if you really want to call it that

Edited by Mirionx, 24 July 2013 - 11:57 AM.


#19 Quits

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 12:01 PM

View PostMirionx, on 24 July 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

To be honest I think Hand of Purity baseline and replace the talent with an on-use ability called Unyielding faith(the wrath one that reduced the duration of fears by -20%) that reduces the next duration of the next fear casted on you by 30 - 40%(not sure on value)
thats an idea i like.
as to avoiding fears, no that isnt the problem, being feared is. save your sprint for when they run at you. rofl. if paladins had an out to fear it'd be gg
also undispellable sac is a horrible idea, it'd be the same idea as unholy frenzy, which let me remind you, they modifed to not break cc

#20 Champion_re

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Posted 24 July 2013 - 12:01 PM

View PostDjholyshockx, on 24 July 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

The other problem isn't because somebody dispelled your sac, It's because whilst you eat that cc you had nothing that was healing your partner (eternal flame useless most of the time it wont outheal burst) like real hots, earth shield etc.

The sac IS a hots. Just instead of healing it reduces damage (that's potato potatoe). So the reason you don't have anything "healing" your partner, is because they dispelled your sac.

Quote

I think holy paladins are fine, i've been playing KFC at around 2500-2550 mmr this season, other healers just need to be nerfed, along with other damage classes.

Now that's quite a paradox. "We are just as good as the other healers, but they are much better".

We don't need 100% dispell resistance on HoS. Somewhere between 50-80% is fair.





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