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#161 Numbtoes

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 12:14 AM

View Postphael, on 24 July 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

Yep, damage is still fucked. Well, Frost Bomb can do gnarly things to people, but that's about it :(
Oh is frostbomb damage good on PTR?
So far, from what I've seen and heard, frostbomb seems to be the way to go.

#162 ZhreyZhreystorm

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 02:28 AM

First of all, this is a 100% nerf for mages. No theory about this becoming good will ever become realistic. I've read every comment on this thread so far and from what I understand, the spec is dead on PTR. If the spec is dead on PTR blizz will prolly try to fix it, but regardless, the change in itself is a massive classchange and will affect the gameplay and viablility of mages in all comps (as frost). I choose to become the devils laywer in this case. Current state of the game for mages today: Mages do have the potencial to kill another player alone, but than again which class is not able to perform that? The mage class though, needs to get everything correctly, preferly a FFB, Orb with fof proc into deep ice lance spam til blanket and maybe alter time offensively with the FFB proc. I do have 3s in mind by default at this point, which includes two other players and above a specific rating, Pillars, Dispels. Peels from teammates and Hybrid offhealing is a factor. and even if the mage manages to get everything off perfectly, most classes have defensives that allows them to live through it if used correctly. so to say that mage mastery is completly broken because they potencially can get out tons of damage and even a solo kill is just dump.

The arguement of mages being able to spam poly is also just dogshit. when mages are being trained it's forcing them to move all the time to increase their positioning while using defensives, than again faking interrupts from the other team before allowing polly which also gets countered by several abilitys such as, Swd, shadow meld, form swapping, grounding, wind shear, Mass dispel etc. my point being that if mages are high rated it's because they're good, I do want more casting in the game but it's not realistic in this expansion.

Oh ye, the Ice flows change wont matter, Pom and blazing speed will still be prio in pvp for sure.

There are probably thousands of arguements against some of my thoughts on this, but seriously, just think about it. if this goes through it's close to the end of viable frostmage play. Sorry for the long post.

Edited by MagxTv, 25 July 2013 - 02:40 AM.

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#163 phael

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 09:50 AM

View PostNumbtoes, on 25 July 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

Oh is frostbomb damage good on PTR?
So far, from what I've seen and heard, frostbomb seems to be the way to go.

100k average with procs up. Can go much higher when the stars align.

Also, after playing with Ice Floes: This talent fucking rocks. Seriously give it a try. It took me like 10 seconds to get used to, and I've never used KJC/SWG. Frost Bomb and Poly on the move is just way too strong.

#164 anneeh

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 10:09 AM

it's been said before, the current mastery is fine, the amount we have is not, 52% (70%+ with mastery buff from shamans/paladins etc) makes us do too much dmg, nerf that, put some back into frostbolt base dmg and we're fine.

shatter is such a core mechanic of mages, and now we're supposed to chain cast and have ramp up time? just doesn't feel right

#165 Alisea

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 10:16 AM

as mentioned befor its not about the fact that ice floes is stronger now Ødi, its about the necessity of the opportunities POM gives which you will lose. so, even if ice floes rocks the shit, you will never have the possibility to bring the poly when its needed.. in this expansion, you need instant CC, otherwise you wont get it off (in the right time) :/

and yes, blizzard should just change the numbers of frostburn and everything is fine, dunno why they always want to change everything completely instead of just tweakin around a running system

Edited by Alisea, 25 July 2013 - 10:18 AM.


#166 Atkinson

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 10:58 AM

View Postphael, on 24 July 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

Yep, damage is still fucked. Well, Frost Bomb can do gnarly things to people, but that's about it :(
Have they fixed the pve trinket in pvp yet, cause tbh i really wanna try new icles in bg or something but that fucking trinket im geting like 3 shot idk why nerds even use something thats gonna get nerfd ptr is for testing how your gonna be on new patch not troll ppl :(. Those numbers your showing are way better then they were before so hopefully they keep tweaking them.
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#167 Atkinson

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 11:00 AM

View PostAlisea, on 25 July 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

and yes, blizzard should just change the numbers of frostburn and everything is fine, dunno why they always want to change everything completely instead of just tweakin around a running system

Why does blizz have to be elaborate about changeing shit :(. Hey people are dieing in a deepfreeze why not change that one spell to new name and it just stuns and doesnt cause the extra dmg? Thats just one idea from a canadian stoner off top of his head, and that makes 10x more sense this icicle shit >:(
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#168 phael

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 12:26 AM

View PostAtkinson, on 25 July 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Have they fixed the pve trinket in pvp yet, cause tbh i really wanna try new icles in bg or something but that fucking trinket im geting like 3 shot idk why nerds even use something thats gonna get nerfd ptr is for testing how your gonna be on new patch not troll ppl :(. Those numbers your showing are way better then they were before so hopefully they keep tweaking them.

The int caster trinket got nerfed really hard. The % proc got removed and the passive was reduced quite a bit. I posted a screenshot of it a few pages back, but basically now its just a decent int proc trinketet and nothing else. I'm getting better numbers with just the PVP trinket.

#169 fant0m8

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:39 AM

Why do people insist on being fucking doomsday prophets based on numbers when blizzard hasn't done a single numbers pass on the PTR yet?
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 07:44 AM

View PostMagxTv, on 25 July 2013 - 02:28 AM, said:

First of all, this is a 100% nerf for mages. No theory about this becoming good will ever become realistic. I've read every comment on this thread so far and from what I understand, the spec is dead on PTR. If the spec is dead on PTR blizz will prolly try to fix it, but regardless, the change in itself is a massive classchange and will affect the gameplay and viablility of mages in all comps (as frost). I choose to become the devils laywer in this case. Current state of the game for mages today: Mages do have the potencial to kill another player alone, but than again which class is not able to perform that? The mage class though, needs to get everything correctly, preferly a FFB, Orb with fof proc into deep ice lance spam til blanket and maybe alter time offensively with the FFB proc. I do have 3s in mind by default at this point, which includes two other players and above a specific rating, Pillars, Dispels. Peels from teammates and Hybrid offhealing is a factor. and even if the mage manages to get everything off perfectly, most classes have defensives that allows them to live through it if used correctly. so to say that mage mastery is completly broken because they potencially can get out tons of damage and even a solo kill is just dump.

The arguement of mages being able to spam poly is also just dogshit. when mages are being trained it's forcing them to move all the time to increase their positioning while using defensives, than again faking interrupts from the other team before allowing polly which also gets countered by several abilitys such as, Swd, shadow meld, form swapping, grounding, wind shear, Mass dispel etc. my point being that if mages are high rated it's because they're good, I do want more casting in the game but it's not realistic in this expansion.

Oh ye, the Ice flows change wont matter, Pom and blazing speed will still be prio in pvp for sure.

There are probably thousands of arguements against some of my thoughts on this, but seriously, just think about it. if this goes through it's close to the end of viable frostmage play. Sorry for the long post.
cant agree more +rep

#171 Pritchard

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 08:33 AM

View Postfant0m8, on 26 July 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

Why do people insist on being fucking doomsday prophets based on numbers when blizzard hasn't done a single numbers pass on the PTR yet?

this.  They've stated several times, numbers you see on the ptr from all classes are nowhere near finalized.   There is a link to a blue post on mmo champ where he stated as recently as last week that they are not even close to going into a numbers phase yet on the PTR.

#172 Osti14

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:36 PM

The current state of the PTR frost mage is horrific. Casting frostbolts you would think would reward you with good icicle damage, instead they are marshmellows launching for around 3k-5k damage a piece on resil targets.  Mage is the only class with an interactive mastery that double dips with resilience......  I don't know why they have the release of icicles on Ice lance which actually does decent damage during FoF procs.  They need to put it on a useless spell like fire blast since nobody uses it anymore post fire blast glyph nerf.

(fire blast converted to frost blast and used to unleash icicles seems like a great solution otherwise this mastery will be largely passive and ignored mechanics wise. having frost blast detonate icicles rather than ice lance will allow FoF procs/ice lance shatters to be used appropriately as they come rather than ignored to save up icicles which is very clunky and unfun. This will allow icicles to build up as the player sees fit, creating an actual interesting mastery)

Next season scaling will already prove that players will be around 69% resilience. (with pvp trinket set bonus). Those 30k casted frostbolts will eventually kill something..... I don't understand why they don't have a major overhaul like this, during a beta.  PTR just doesn't give enough time to do such drastic changes like this.

Edited by Osti14, 26 July 2013 - 11:38 PM.


#173 fant0m8

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 04:04 AM

View PostOsti14, on 26 July 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

The current state of the PTR frost mage is horrific. Casting frostbolts you would think would reward you with good icicle damage, instead they are marshmellows launching for around 3k-5k damage a piece on resil targets.  Mage is the only class with an interactive mastery that double dips with resilience......  I don't know why they have the release of icicles on Ice lance which actually does decent damage during FoF procs.  They need to put it on a useless spell like fire blast since nobody uses it anymore post fire blast glyph nerf.

Next season scaling will already prove that players will be around 69% resilience. (with pvp trinket set bonus). Those 30k casted frostbolts will eventually kill something..... I don't understand why they don't have a major overhaul like this, during a beta.  PTR just doesn't give enough time to do such drastic changes like this.

Seriously, STOP getting your panties in a bunch. Blizzard has literally stated that the double dipping with resil is a bug. They have also stated that they haven't done ANY number balancing yet on the PTR.

Why the fuck are you so upset about numbers at this point of testing? THEY AREN'T DONE YET. You should be giving feedback purely about mechanics at this point.

----

Speaking of the small portion of your post where you actually addressed mechanics, I can't really see that happening. If they added icicles on a different button it would fuck with the PVE rotation and the number balancing would be very difficult (to make the fire blast global worth it in PVE but not OP in PVP would be quite tricky).

I'm actually really looking forward to icicles on my mage, on ice lance. I love adding more sources of damage on my burst (procs etc), and shatter burst is definitely still going to be there. The newest change where they made the icicles launch every 0.5s is really nice. That should make them all land within the deep freeze or imp CS or poly window that you're bursting with.
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#174 Sundays

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 06:08 AM

They should bring back some form of Frozen Core imo.

Frozen Core now also causes your Ice Lance criticals to reduce the cast time of your next Frostbolt or Frostfire Bolt by 0.4/0.7/1 sec.

#175 anneeh

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 08:20 AM

View Postfant0m8, on 27 July 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

Seriously, STOP getting your panties in a bunch. Blizzard has literally stated that the double dipping with resil is a bug. They have also stated that they haven't done ANY number balancing yet on the PTR.

Why the fuck are you so upset about numbers at this point of testing? THEY AREN'T DONE YET. You should be giving feedback purely about mechanics at this point.

I beg to differ

@holinka Awesome. Is that likely the final mastery build for mages?
@Hogmanlolz If everything is working correctly it should be.

it's NOW that we need to raise concerns, not when ptr is over, right now we need to speak up, there's NOTHING wrong with speaking your mind about changes this drastic that are still on a ptr.

they made this to make frost mastery more fun, but all it does is give us lower numbers, and if they won't make icicles considerably bigger(say 30-40k) I'd like them to keep them in the useless state they are in now and just buff the fuck out of frostbolt, cause it's still doing like 20-30k for a casted spell which is beyond me. (destro lock incinerates crit 70k)

they buffed pet dmg considerably aswell, when our pet is dead right now it's already a big deal, it'll be even more worth killing mage pets next patch since it's a bigger part of our dmg and it has a 1min cd and the healing we can do to it is horrible

#176 Crawthz

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 10:27 AM

View Postfant0m8, on 27 July 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

Seriously, STOP getting your panties in a bunch. Blizzard has literally stated that the double dipping with resil is a bug. They have also stated that they haven't done ANY number balancing yet on the PTR.

Why the fuck are you so upset about numbers at this point of testing? THEY AREN'T DONE YET. You should be giving feedback purely about mechanics at this point.

----

Speaking of the small portion of your post where you actually addressed mechanics, I can't really see that happening. If they added icicles on a different button it would fuck with the PVE rotation and the number balancing would be very difficult (to make the fire blast global worth it in PVE but not OP in PVP would be quite tricky).

I'm actually really looking forward to icicles on my mage, on ice lance. I love adding more sources of damage on my burst (procs etc), and shatter burst is definitely still going to be there. The newest change where they made the icicles launch every 0.5s is really nice. That should make them all land within the deep freeze or imp CS or poly window that you're bursting with.

And we're not allowed to discuss about if they implement this new dogshit mastery, it needs to hit more that soft summer wind?

Also, this is already going to affect PvE rotation massively, you just can't use FoF procs anymore whenever you want, you need to hold them until you got 5stack Icicle and potentially miss out on FoF procs.
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Posted 27 July 2013 - 11:29 AM

View Postfant0m8, on 27 July 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

I'm actually really looking forward to icicles on my mage, on ice lance. I love adding more sources of damage on my burst (procs etc), and shatter burst is definitely still going to be there. The newest change where they made the icicles launch every 0.5s is really nice. That should make them all land within the deep freeze or imp CS or poly window that you're bursting with.
It wont even be worth shattering anymore, frostbolt will crit for like 30k followed by 50k lance,I rly dno why they made frostbolt so weak this way , its rly stupid that they r destroying shatter.

#178 Udderly

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 02:17 PM

View Postanneeh, on 27 July 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

I beg to differ

@holinka Awesome. Is that likely the final mastery build for mages?
@Hogmanlolz If everything is working correctly it should be.

it's NOW that we need to raise concerns, not when ptr is over, right now we need to speak up, there's NOTHING wrong with speaking your mind about changes this drastic that are still on a ptr.

they made this to make frost mastery more fun, but all it does is give us lower numbers, and if they won't make icicles considerably bigger(say 30-40k) I'd like them to keep them in the useless state they are in now and just buff the fuck out of frostbolt, cause it's still doing like 20-30k for a casted spell which is beyond me. (destro lock incinerates crit 70k)

they buffed pet dmg considerably aswell, when our pet is dead right now it's already a big deal, it'll be even more worth killing mage pets next patch since it's a bigger part of our dmg and it has a 1min cd and the healing we can do to it is horrible

You need reading skills son. RAISE ALL THE CONCERNS ABOUT THE MECHANIC THAT YOU WANT.  Holinka's tweet says zilch about the numbers.  But there are about 3423532423 other tweets/posts from all kinds of Blizz folks telling us they aren't ready for numbers passes yet.  

But please, by all means, keep bitching - clearly it's what you came to this site to do, rather than to join a constructive discussion about class mechanics.

#179 Crawthz

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 04:01 PM

Well, there are thousand questions still unanswered about this Icicle thing.. For example, how is it affected by absorbs? If I FFB a guy with shield stronger than my FFB, do I recieve an Icicle with 0 dmg in it and it replaces a Icicle with full FFB dmg?
How are they going to fix double dipping? Fulldmg to Icicle from non-affected resilience on Frostbolt and FFB or full dmg Icicle which ignores resilience?

I am still thinking even the mechanic behind Icicle is just horrible. I can not use FoF procs before I have enough Icicles and I shouldn't cast Frostbolts, because they're doing about 25% of FFB's damage and Icicle stacks horribly then. Or then it's the case that I should just ignore anything Icicle related in arena, because it's not going to do any noticable damage to anyone. Anyways, it's horrible mechanic and not fun in any way. It brings unnecessary obstacles to Frostmages in arena and yet, there's things like Retpalas hitting 250k+ on PTR per global with CDs and Eleshamans taking 70% off from my HP without procs with one cast.

It's sad to see that (yes, now talking about numbers) my ilvl goes up by 25'ish and my damage goes down by 30%-50% ish from Live.

Edited by Crawthz, 27 July 2013 - 04:04 PM.

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#180 Udderly

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 06:09 PM

View PostCrawthz, on 27 July 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

Well, there are thousand questions still unanswered about this Icicle thing.. For example, how is it affected by absorbs? If I FFB a guy with shield stronger than my FFB, do I recieve an Icicle with 0 dmg in it and it replaces a Icicle with full FFB dmg?
How are they going to fix double dipping? Fulldmg to Icicle from non-affected resilience on Frostbolt and FFB or full dmg Icicle which ignores resilience?

I am still thinking even the mechanic behind Icicle is just horrible. I can not use FoF procs before I have enough Icicles and I shouldn't cast Frostbolts, because they're doing about 25% of FFB's damage and Icicle stacks horribly then. Or then it's the case that I should just ignore anything Icicle related in arena, because it's not going to do any noticable damage to anyone. Anyways, it's horrible mechanic and not fun in any way. It brings unnecessary obstacles to Frostmages in arena and yet, there's things like Retpalas hitting 250k+ on PTR per global with CDs and Eleshamans taking 70% off from my HP without procs with one cast.

It's sad to see that (yes, now talking about numbers) my ilvl goes up by 25'ish and my damage goes down by 30%-50% ish from Live.

I'm wondering if the game play is meant to be that you aren't unloading 5 stacks of fully charged icicles, but rather that you can build more consistent pressure by tossing out 2-3 stack FoF lances.  Hard to tell at this stage until some people are able to really figure out the new spell priorities on the PTR and once they have done at least an initial numbers pass.

You make a good point about absorbs - let's hope that's not the case, since that would definitely be bad for the game if it negated the icicle like that.




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