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New Mage Mastery - 5.4


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#41 Crawthz

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 12:56 PM

You are wrong. Ferals losing root shift in cata. Anyway it's irrelevant - if the change is for the better who cares whether it happens with or without precedent. This change is pioneering and hopefully they make more of these kinds of changes to improve the game mid expansion (whether it's a good change or not is the only thing that ought to be up for debate).


Where am I wrong? Ferals lost root-shifting in expansion change? Nobodys ways to deal damage has changed this drastically mid-expansion, where it's clear gameplay affecting change. It will totally change how Frostmage works.

Though, it will be hard to say if it's good or bad. I read somewhere it's the same Mastery numbers as we see on live;
50% mastery with 5.4 gear, so means we will store 50% of 100k+ FFB's x5 = ~250k Icicle and Ice Lance got buffed so FoF proc with 5stack Icicle means around 300k+ dmg in press of a button. With 1sec release time reduced by haste, 5 stack Icicle is gone in 4sec and we can do dmg while Icicles are running. So in total, Frostmage could turret out about 500k+ dmg in 4sec if procs allow it.

^ above is highly theoretical and is not tested on PTR

[edit]

Also, Icicle apparently double dips on recilience (for example, FFB is reduced by resilience and the Icicle lauched is reduced by resilience) so it might just be really crappy proc that does absolutely nothing in terms of dmg.

Edited by Crawthz, 18 July 2013 - 12:59 PM.

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#42 Neverever

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:08 PM

Quoting what you said previously again for context:

Yeah, massive class change mid-expansion. Frostmage having a ramp-up time and losing on-demand burst? This is almost expansion-level class change.. No class has been changed like this during the expansion, or am I completely wrong?


Where am I wrong? Ferals lost root-shifting in expansion change? Nobodys ways to deal damage has changed this drastically mid-expansion, where it's clear gameplay affecting change. It will totally change how Frostmage works.


Ferals lost their root shift during an expansion. It was patch 4.0.6. As you may recall, the change was so bad and hurt a class-defining mechanic (much more important to ferals than the way mage damage is adminsiterd to mages) so greatly that I would say 90% of ferals were threatening to reroll. I'm not going to go through archives and bring up posts to further prove my point but they are there if you want to look. It should also be quite obvious to you that not being able to get out of roots yourself which you used to be able to do would naturally change the way a class deals damage.

Again, I don't care if this kind of change has been done before or not. If it's broken, it should be fixed. Solving problems in a timely fashion is a good way of doing things.

If my class was retarded in some way I would be more than happy for them to change it at any moment. Beating someone because I played better than them is much more enjoyable and satisfying than beating someone because they have a handgun and I have a nuclear bomb.
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id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages


#43 Alexandrius

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:19 PM

My suggestion to reworking frost was basically to appease the raiders, make them maintain Icelance as a debuff on their target and use frostbolt to do the dmg. So say double the dmg of frostbolt and half the dmg of Icelance from fingers. Raiders would still complain probably, but I think frost could be viable in 3s if frostbolt was its main dmg dealer if it had a haste buff in arena and say, cone if cold root back. I'd gladly give up Pom poly for that as well.
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#44 Neverever

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:24 PM

but I think frost could be viable in 3s if frostbolt was its main dmg dealer if it had a haste buff in arena and say, cone if cold root back.


Yes, this is what I was saying earlier in the thread. It would be a good change.

I just realised this mastery gutting is brilliant actually because they're doing it for pve reasons. They can't hotfix revert it or change it back because pvpers complain. All they have to say is, well it works better in pve AND pvp now and therefore it's going to go through. Finally, we may see some progress due to PvE!
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id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages


#45 watchmepwn

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:28 PM

makes our icelance do 150k procs?
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#46 Alexandrius

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:34 PM

I mean it's just building up charges and then unloading. So if you don't want to play fire, your options are 4 stack arc barrage as arcane with no fof deeps or pet nova, or 5 stack icicle dot rape once you use enough ffbs. Casting those massive 25k frostbolts is going to give you a 7k icicle (supposedly our mastery is only like 26% on ptr from like 50% on live) :(. The main problem here is blizzard seems to think the overpowered thing about mages is frostbomb while the healer is polyd or whatever cc is on him. They don't seem to realize there is little pressure from the Mage except from a special event we call deep orb time. Mage gameplay is specifically about huge burst in a short window with tons of cc at the same time. If we didnt have that we would be locks... 1 icicle per second for 5 seconds is a fancy way of saying a "dot".

Edited by Swagimusprime, 18 July 2013 - 01:36 PM.

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#47 Neverever

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:41 PM

I mean it's just building up charges and then unloading. So if you don't want to play fire, your options are 4 stack arc barrage as arcane with no fof deeps or pet nova, or 5 stack icicle dot rape once you use enough ffbs. Casting those massive 25k frostbolts is going to give you a 7k icicle (supposedly our mastery is only like 26% on ptr from like 50% on live) :(. The main problem here is blizzard seems to think the overpowered thing about mages is frostbomb while the healer is polyd or whatever cc is on him. They don't seem to realize there is little pressure from the Mage except from a special event we call deep orb time. Mage gameplay is specifically about huge burst in a short window with tons of cc at the same time. If we didnt have that we would be locks... 1 icicle per second for 5 seconds is a fancy way of saying a "dot".


Yeah, and that's not good gameplay or design. Your partner can be the one doing the pressure and you can contribute to it whilst doing the cc. You don't need to be a swiss army knife.

Also, you won't be like locks. They do consistent spread pressure - you will be doing consistent single target pressure (depending on how this change interacts with glyph of ice lance). Anyway, it'll only be the way you do damage that might begin to share similarities with locks - your cc and gameplay based around kiting will still be your niche.
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id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages


#48 Crawthz

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:45 PM

Yes, this is what I was saying earlier in the thread. It would be a good change.

I just realised this mastery gutting is brilliant actually because they're doing it for pve reasons. They can't hotfix revert it or change it back because pvpers complain. All they have to say is, well it works better in pve AND pvp now and therefore it's going to go through. Finally, we may see some progress due to PvE!


They are not doing this for PvE reasons, it's Holinkas mindset that Frostmages are overpowered in PvP and it's a pure PvP nerf; just like the earlier Mastery revamp was.
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#49 Neverever

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:46 PM

I think secretly the thing that mages are most worried about is that their gameplay, which is alreay quite boring and uninvolving compared to what it used to be in prior expansions, will be made more so with any mastery changes.

I totally understand that concern but you also have to understand that mage mastery was flawed as soon as it was implemented in cata and after fingers of frost were changed from wrath to cata etc.

You just have to have faith in blizzard that they will do the right thing and realise that you are in safe hands.
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id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages


#50 Neverever

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:52 PM

They are not doing this for PvE reasons, it's Holinkas mindset that Frostmages are overpowered in PvP and it's a pure PvP nerf; just like the earlier Mastery revamp was.


I'm sorry? Do you have a telepathic connection to Brian Holinka? Because if you do can you convince him to fix spinning fire blossom for ww monks plz kk thx.

Just because he said something on twitter does not mean that he is the architect of these changes - it would be naive to assume otherwise.

Or maybe you're one of the lucky few who get to give Holinka direct pvp feedback via e-mails, idk. In that case just convince him yourself.

But the thing is, he DID imply if not outright say that it's because of pve reasons on twitter:

ArirangX@ArirangX 13 Jul
@holinka I played 5.4 test server frost mage, well... mastery patch is very series patch ... you consider that frost mage collapsed :(


Holinka@holinka 13 Jul
.@ArirangX We're trying to find a lot for frost Mage mastery that isn't as boring as the most functional solution, "more frost damage"

Fun > functionality is what he's saying, which is a pve change in my books.

I'm happy with a "collapsed" mastery because it would be better for everyone else. They are making frost mage mastery more fun in pve and also happen to be balancing it in pvp at the same time, although that's not their priority. It's a win-win situation really.
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id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages


#51 Mirionx

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:24 PM

They seem to think that passive mastery's are boring and want everyone to have a "fun" and "interesting" mastery
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#52

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:29 PM

Fun > functionality is what he's saying, which is a pve change in my books.

it is not a pve change, mages don't actually raid as frost. there was a tweet from either holinka or gc a while ago saying that they believed frost mastery allowed too much burst on too frequent a basis
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#53 watduck

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:54 PM

Important things from Lhiv: (http://lhiveras-libr...ng-live-icicles)

If you generate a new Icicle when you already have five, the oldest will immediately launch at the target hit by the spell that generated the new Icicle, and the new one will be stored.



Lets say I have 5 icicles and my oldest one( the first one i got) is from a FFB proc. Then my water ele hits some dude with a weakass bolt. Does this new icicle replace my FFB one? I ask because it will obviously do less damage if it does.

So as others have said, turn off the auto waterbolt?
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#54 Alexandrius

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 03:02 PM

Lets say I have 5 icicles and my oldest one( the first one i got) is from a FFB proc. Then my water ele hits some dude with a weakass bolt. Does this new icicle replace my FFB one? I ask because it will obviously do less damage if it does.

So as others have said, turn off the auto waterbolt?

inc, mages pets are all hugging their healers next patch in order to completely counter hunter cc hehehe
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#55 Igor Čovran

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 03:06 PM

cmon guy u know if ull w8 for 5x ffb u wont do no dmg meanwhile cuz u waont be able to spam icelance so 5x ffb wont be possible what will be possible is like 2-3x fb and 2-3 ffb so if ull be trained thers no way ull get 5 stacks cuz ull need to use FOF to do seome pressure with icelance ... i think we will get trained alot more now
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#56 Lemmi1

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 03:15 PM

Lets say I have 5 icicles and my oldest one( the first one i got) is from a FFB proc. Then my water ele hits some dude with a weakass bolt. Does this new icicle replace my FFB one? I ask because it will obviously do less damage if it does.

So as others have said, turn off the auto waterbolt?


if you get a sixth icicle, your oldest would auto launch to the target of the spell who created that sixth charge.
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#57 KPul

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 03:19 PM

At least you guys are mages and you have multiple viable specs. Fire might be the way to go next season

EDIT: you guys still have polymorph so you guys can still be matched with the most OP caster of the season and win everything

Edited by KPul, 18 July 2013 - 03:20 PM.

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#58

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 03:22 PM


Ive read all your posts in this thread, and i dont like you, so please stop posting. you're posting shit not even i post

Edited by Zerlog, 18 July 2013 - 03:22 PM.

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#59 watchmepwn

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 03:32 PM

ppl stop complaining :D lets see it on PTR first. it has potential.. and even if we are getting tunneld who gives a fuck? we still got instants that can build the procs. gonna be same as now but other way too burst?


Prolly something like: orb + deep + first icelance (150-200k) 2nd ice lance 80-90k + 3rd lance) blanket kill gg.
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#60 Hogardude

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 04:15 PM

you're posting shit not even i post


Serious stuff over there!
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