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Windwalker Monks and Lag - too punishing

ww windalker monk lag latency ms

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#1 Neverever

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 06:03 PM

Originally I was going to post this in the other thread about monk fix ideas but this post is more about QoL changes rather than about being competitive so I went with making another thread. Reading through Balance's list of suggested changes and seeing the FoF changes suggested primarily due to how lag affects this ability got me thinking about how key bits of this spec are messed up because of lag and bugs.

I would have to say that ww monk is the spec, by far, most affected by lag issues and on a variety of abilities and that's what I had in mind when writing this:


1) Spinning Fire Blossom:

They need to make this ability the same way it was before it got stealth nerfed. It should only consume chi after successfully hitting a target not whenever the ability is used.

It is so useful for peels after disable roots start dring but more importantly it is absolutely vital to get our targetless gap closers to work properly. If our target isn't held in place by a root or already has a snare on them then it becomes too easy for anyone with half a brain to move around whilst you are rolling so that another gap has been created by the time you land and, considering disable has hitbox issues, makes life an absolute pain if they moved even 5 yards and you're rolling from max distance. Even if you try quake rocket launcher tactics and roll where the person will move to, again if they have half a brain they'll counter this.

Top level players know how to exploit the chinks in ww monk mobility and they are partly there due to this dumb change that was done to SFB for no reason whatsoever. You need something to reliably lock them down from a distance before you roll at them otherwise lag and other random crap just makes things unnecessarily and unfairly problematic in the process.

Why SFB should be reverted to its previous form:

- too punishing compared to the absolute reliability of other class abilities in an mmo and online game
- affected by lag more than skill
- affected by mongoloid pets and hitting other things swarming around you
- totally necessary for our targetless gap closers to work properly
- after nerfs, it doesn't even hit remotely hard now


2) Roll:

Don't see why they can't make roll cancellable like FSK. They obviously have the technology so no reason not to make roll like this.

Roll jumping is fun and requires skill to use etc. etc. but it seems odd that such a mandatory technique of using this ability is unofficial and at the point where roll is useless unless you're roll jumping.

But more importantly, lag completely screws with this ability and again this should not be the case when other classes' gap closers are not affected by lag in remotely a similar fashion.

And you know what the best part is? You can still cc a monk mid roll/fsk even though he has to time, predict and think about how he uses these abilities LOL.

3) Disable's hitbox:

There is something really odd about this ability.

I guess everyone playing ww at some point has experienced being in "melee range" at a distance where, on any other melee, you'd easily be hitting your target but as ww youre just spamming disable and nothing's happening, just hoping that tiny passive speed increase you have will put you into range before the other guy puts a ranged instant snare on you again and you have to waste another gap closer because your snare (which you have to manually reapply) is buggy as hell.

Didn't ferals have to put with hitbox issues for years before they were fixed, maybe the same is in store for us?

________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Why should the level of success with which you can use key bread and butter abilities of your class, namely roll, spinning fire blossom and even FoF be so determined by lag when no other class has to put up with the same crap? It's not even a case of high risk, high reward - it's just basic functionality that is undermined by lag. If other classes don't have to put up with this, why should we? It's a nice idea to introduce these mechanics but is it FAIR when these types of abilities are not key to other classes' core success?

Let's say I'm playing on EU servers where I have relatively low latency (though it still affects these abilities) and I decide I want to play on a US server. Melee are already hard to play with high latency but I could still easily play a dk, rogue, feral etc. whatever melee I wanted. But, I could never play a ww monk successfully, properly or to the best of my ability on a US server from an EU location because of the way lag uniquely affects these key abilities. I do actually want to be able to play a ww monk on a US server but I will never be able to for this reason and it is utterly dumb.

And if some idiot says "different classes are different" then that mongoloid has completely missed the point of this.

Also, before you start ad hominem criticism I know I'm roll jumping and hitting my SFBs better than the vast majority but I refuse to put up with mechanics that are either buggy or unfairly affected by lag in comparison to other classes.

Inb4 "you're exaggerating" - go play a monk, you'll see I'm right.

But, since no one plays monks and they're a joke class and no one complains about them or talks about them (just listen to when top streamers are asked about the state of all the classes - they always forget monks, they are negligible), I doubt anything will happen.

I mean, it took them 10 months to give Xuen a control bar so we can make sure he doesn't break our powerful 4 second cc :S

TLDR: success of ww monk mobility is affected by lag too much and theres other bugs aswell. Fix this shit.

End rant.

View PostDizzeeyo, on 16 July 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages

#2 BalanceRexxar

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:31 PM

I keep having to use paralysis to get to my target then root them with disable before I can start attacking lol, I agree with you.

#3 Udderly

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:58 PM

View PostBalanceRexxar, on 14 July 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

I keep having to use paralysis to get to my target then root them with disable before I can start attacking lol, I agree with you.

Yea same thing.  It's something I find I have to do often, and it is a PITA.  Nice original post (even if you ranted a little, I feel your pain brother) =)

#4 Marshmellow

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 11:45 PM

Targets with a sprint up are nearly impossible to touch its pretty annoying

and don't even thing about trying to catch a feral if he wants to kite

#5 Calmdownbro

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 12:34 AM

It's extremely annoying sitting on top of your target spamming Disable but nothing happens, Like Balance said I usually have to Paralysis my target and disable root to even start attacking.

Quote

don't even thing about trying to catch a feral if he wants to kite

The worst part of fighting a feral is when you are attempting to kill one and hes porting all over the place.

#6 Neverever

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 01:09 PM

Quote

Targets with a sprint up are nearly impossible to touch its pretty annoying

This so much. Try catching a hunter zig-zagging with posthaste - gg ^^

Roll jumping is enough. We shouldn't have to put up with roll jumping and limited precision firing of spinning fire blossoms. It's too much.

The missing link is really a RELIABLE short duration root of 2 - 3 seconds so your target is locked in place whilst you roll at them.

Spinning Fire Blossom almost was this before the stealth nerf and before it started costing chi regardless of whether you hit your target or not. For an ability that hits so low, is susceptible to going backwards and hitting pets and is affected by lag, its really too much to expect to hit someone moving at range, with or without a sprint, in only a couple of attempts usually. And no I'm not going to hit pets just to generate chi for my SFBs, this is too silly, and doesn't solve the issue of someone moving at range with the pet next to them not me.

Buggy mechanics should be removed or altered.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Some solutions:

- revert the stealth nerf so that spinning fire blossom only costs chi IF you successfully hit your target with it.

If the problem arising from this is chi never degrading over time because you keep spamming spinning fire blossom, find a solution to that problem and don't let this affect SFB's utility in PvP - e.g. make chi degrade over time rergardless of whether you spam SFB or not, but ONLY outside of combat.

- make Spinning Fire Blossom cost 5-10 energy instead of chi - hell, I'd be happy if they made a minor glyph to do this and completely removed the damage compoment, which is negligible really since it hits like a wet noodle

- make it hit the person you're targeting, like the glyph, and also root them.

- make crackling jade lightning apply a very short duration snare, say 3 secs

View PostDizzeeyo, on 16 July 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages

#7 Neverever

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 06:26 PM

Tweeted Holinka since you all agreed.

Let's see what he thinks.

View PostDizzeeyo, on 16 July 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:54 PM

m8 im out of range

#9 Forumz

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:59 PM

It's an issue pretty much every melee has to deal with to be fair. When playing my DK and I am standing on top of someone he's ''out of range'' and I have to use CoI to be able to connect. Funny thing is that after using chains the target moves like halfway across the map before being slowed, so I'm assuming it's simply the game, or the players, lagging in terms of projecting their position.
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#10 Neverever

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 10:24 PM

Quote

It's an issue pretty much every melee has to deal with to be fair. When playing my DK and I am standing on top of someone he's ''out of range'' and I have to use CoI to be able to connect. Funny thing is that after using chains the target moves like halfway across the map before being slowed, so I'm assuming it's simply the game, or the players, lagging in terms of projecting their position.


Ok, so a few things wrong with this:

1. It's not a DK problem. I have played both a dk and a monk and I can honestly say I've never experienced what I'm describing regarding disable and hitbox issues on my dk. Have you played both monk & dk? It's also a well known problem as a simple google search will bring up plenty of topics on the official forums about this for monks - you won't find any similar threads about dks and snare hitboxes. The only similar thing was ferals, and that was sorted a while ago.

2. Chains of Ice is a RANGED snare. Even if dks had this issue, which I am highly doubtful of, I hope common sense tells you that it's a much bigger problem for a class with a snare that can only be applied in melee range rather than from 30 yards away.

3. The real problem lies in the way in which disable interacts with roll and flying serpent kick, and that is what the thread is really about: buggy mechanics & lag affecting TARGETLESS gap closers.

It is a Catch 22:

You need a class to be snared/rooted to roll/fsk reliably at them since they are TARGETLESS gap closers but you also need to be in melee range to reliably get a snare/root off but you can't get in melee range because your targetless gap closers don't work properly without the target being locked in place - you see?

In other words, we can't roll at a target reliably because it's not locked down and we can't lock a target down because we can't roll at them reliably.


Why do I keep using the word reliably, and why is it so important? Because our primary way of locking targets down from range (spinning fire blossom) is not reliable, for a variety of reasons - and this is the chink in ww monk mobility which is exploited by top players. It's a bad mechanic that needs to be addressed. In fact, it was kind of ok before it was STEALTH nerfed.

This is why people are talking about doing silly things like wasting our cc, paralysis, to be able to connect with a target.

And don't get me started on connecting with a class at range who is sprinting.

No other melee has to deal with this horseshit, we shouldn't either.

View PostDizzeeyo, on 16 July 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages

#11 Tinh

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 02:17 AM

View PostBalanceRexxar, on 14 July 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

I keep having to use paralysis to get to my target then root them with disable before I can start attacking lol, I agree with you.

Lol, this. WW actually became more fun than frustrating after paralysis got the 20 yard range.

#12 Tinh

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 02:18 AM

deleted. eee.

#13 Ryiutiz

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 02:53 PM

Have you ever drank orange juice while almost completely in the nude (save for some underwear) and you spilled some on yourself?

That's what it feels like when I'm trying to get on my target on my Monk
#hashtagyologucciswag360noscope420blazeitfaggot69swiftyoneshotherpderpreelzelloguysmerchere

#14 Marshmellow

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 03:16 PM

View PostRyiutiz, on 16 July 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Have you ever drank orange juice while almost completely in the nude (save for some underwear) and you spilled some on yourself?

That's what it feels like when I'm trying to get on my target on my Monk

how is that even remotely close to a comparison?

#15 Neverever

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 03:17 PM

View PostMarshmellow, on 16 July 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

how is that even remotely close to a comparison?

I think now is the time, Darshmellow, for you to get naked (save for underwear ofc) and drip some orange juice on yourself.

View PostDizzeeyo, on 16 July 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages

#16 Neverever

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 03:20 PM

But yeah, it's frustrating and exploitable.

View PostDizzeeyo, on 16 July 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages

#17 Syncrow

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 04:16 PM

It's frustrating, true shit!
But to make it clear, whining will not help us! So, let us remain objective, then probably, blizzard listen to us and change something..

#18 discoepfeand

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:52 PM

What, you don't think it's engaging game play to burn your Expel Harm to get chi, then purposefully let someone get 10+ yards away so that you can Blossom root them, so that you can then approach them and snare them?  It's just so elegant!  :P

I thought have 119% default runspeed was going to make this not an issue for us, but somehow it still is.

#19 Forumz

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 09:01 PM

View PostNeverever, on 15 July 2013 - 10:24 PM, said:

2. Chains of Ice is a RANGED snare. Even if dks had this issue, which I am highly doubtful of, I hope common sense tells you that it's a much bigger problem for a class with a snare that can only be applied in melee range rather than from 30 yards away.

Would you be happier if I told you it goes for hamstring as well? Maybe DK was a bad example but it's still a problem because I can't use melee abilities even when on top of my targets quite often. The only reason people don't bring up Warrior hamstring is because warriors always charge>hamstring. They have to. If you don't hamstring right after charge you will not ever get the hamsting up. Again, it's not just a monk issue.

Edit: that doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed. I'm merely pointing out to you that it's more of a general flaw rather than a specific one.

Edited by Forumz, 16 July 2013 - 09:02 PM.

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#20 Calmdownbro

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 09:27 PM

View PostForumz, on 16 July 2013 - 09:01 PM, said:

Would you be happier if I told you it goes for hamstring as well? Maybe DK was a bad example but it's still a problem because I can't use melee abilities even when on top of my targets quite often. The only reason people don't bring up Warrior hamstring is because warriors always charge>hamstring. They have to. If you don't hamstring right after charge you will not ever get the hamsting up. Again, it's not just a monk issue.

Edit: that doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed. I'm merely pointing out to you that it's more of a general flaw rather than a specific one.

It's a issue for all melee (excluding feral) but which of those Melee have to burn a CC to apply a slow?

Warrior - Charge > Hamstring, Piercing Howl
DK - Chain, Grip > Chain
Rogue - Step > Crippling
Feral - lol
Ret - Ranged Slow (going away in 5.4 though)
Enhance - Frostbrand, Unleash fury with Frostbrand applies slow, Frost Shock
Monk - Paralysis > Disable

Note like it was said above, Roll / FSK isn't a target gapcloser so its not a reliable way to gapclose and apply Disable





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