Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help

PvPTR 5.4 Frostmage Feedback


  • Please log in to reply
8 replies to this topic

#1 Crawthz

Crawthz
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Sylvanas
  • Rampage / Saccage
  • Posts: 704
  • Talents: Frost 0/0/0/2/1/0
  • 2v2: 576
  • LocationFinland

Posted 14 July 2013 - 10:54 AM

Intro

Aight, as requested on the PvPTR thread earlier, I will be giving my own feedback about Frostmages in 5.4. The opinions on this post are my own and I will try to cut down Frostmages into grasslevel in theory, so that it should be easy to read for any level of player.

A short about me, I am an enthusiast theorycrafter. In short, I love asking "What was the logic someone thought when making this", "What drove the person doing this" and "What does this affect in the whole big scheme".

For this post, I've done about 25-30h of PTR testing.

The Frostmage

Keywords

-Great setup potential for damage
-Great on-demand burst
-Great control

-Rather squishy with only one real defensive cooldown
-Zero damage outside of on-demand burst (the 1 out of 10 games midgame proc fishing can    be good)
-No real damage if not set up at all

Alright, so.. Above I've cut down Frostmage into easy-to-recognize words and sentences and I believe we all can agree to. Currently in 5.3, Frostmages have the damage to kill a target who doesn't have defensive cooldowns left and is not getting peeled at all with the short cooldowns of Mages. This damage is easily seen and with defensive cooldowns or peeling, is easily stopped or completely negated. This is why every single meaningful damage Frostmage puts out has to be set up; which is done by controlling the enemy healer by either Poly/CS'ing him or going on him with Deep Freeze. Any little interrupt, pushback, stun; any control effect really will stop your team-mate from dying.
Playing comps like FMP gives you a massive control potential aswell; Deep into PoM RoF/Poly into CS into Nova/Rof/Poly and then your partner takes over for a while and your control is off from DR already.

Mages don't do any damage at all outside of the on-demand burst. Frostbolt casting is in most of the cases not worth it or impossible and you need to save your procs for damage later when you and your partner is ready to go. Some rare cases, you can sit midfield and spamcast Frostbolt and fish procs and can force alot of stuff yourself, but this should never happen in theory.

Mages are also very squishy but that is covered mostly with the mobility and control. But Mages are still very squishy and often when you see two classes connecting on to the mage even for a split second, that's Ice Block forced.



The Changes


I won't be going into Datamined info, only what is said on us.battle.net PTR Blogs.

Talents
  • Frost Bomb now deals 70% damage to players (up from 60%).
  • Living Bomb now deals 85% damage to players (up from 70%).
  • Nether Tempest now deals 85% damage to players (up from 70%).
  • Temporal Shield now also reduces damage taken by 15% while active in addition to existing effects.
Glyphs
  • Glyph of Blink now increases distance travelled with the Blink spell by 8 yards (up from 5 yards).
  • Glyph of Remove Curse now increases the damage dealt by 15% after successfully removing a curse (up from 10%).
  • Glyph of Spellsteal now heals the Mage for 5% of their maximum health after successfully stealing a spell (up from 3%).
Frost
  • Mastery: Frostburn has been redesigned. Fingers of Frost now increases the damage of Ice Lance by an additional 2%, Brain Freeze increases the damage of the instant cast Frostfire Bolt by 2%, and damage done by the Mage's Water Elemental is increased by 2%.


The effect of change


I will be covering only the Mastery change, because the rest are just small and marginal changes.

What Mastery change does to Frostmages?
  • Casting is yet again worthless, Frostbolt can be, without any exaggeration, removed from the bars. My Frostbolt does 25k crits on Deep on PTR. Ice Lance is around the same
  • Deep Freeze no longer increases Frostmages damage. Bursting into Deep is gone
  • On-Demand burst has been lowered to cover almost nothing, without any kind of compensation
I have said on Twitter to Holinka, that Frostmage is now a sad version of Elemental Shaman and the worst caster on PTR. Why did I choose exactly those words?
Because; procs are procs, they are RNG. There's two abilities that gives us FoF procs on-demand and those are Orb and Freeze. Bomb spells give us RNG Frostfire bolts. Frostbolt and Blizzard give us RNG FoF procs. So there's 1min CD and 24sec CD that gives us reliably procs and rest is just RNG.
What was the answer from Holinka to this?
"That's being terribly dramatic"

So, let me say this again. Frostmages have been built around on-demand damage and control. With this Mastery change, the on-demand damage has been taken away.

What does this mean then? Frostmage is now a procmachine, heavily relying on procs to have a chance to kill. A Frostmage is no longer in control of the damage he puts out. It can be double FoF and one Brainfreeze proc into double FoF and 5 Brainfreeze procs.

On live 5.3 currently, if all cooldowns and trinkets forced and no peeling is available, Deep + Orb + Alter Timed procs gives you almost guaranteed kill. Just a Deep wont be guaranteed, most of the times your target stays alive. Also, once your killtarget/healer is out of the control, the killwindow is shut down, and you have to start building the killwindow again.

On 5.4 PTR, my Deep + Orb + procs with Alter time cuts about 50% of someones HP. Even a Treantstun that I blink afterwards reduces the damage I do into Deep + CS to about 20%.

My opinions


My own thinking why this was changed is because of low-mid experienced players. Deep + Orb is a damn powerfull skill currently and inexperienced players have huge trouble surviving this. This is why you see twice a day streams with titles such as "1v2 mage" and those are multiglad/r1 level players who play at 1k-1.5k MMR against players who have no idea how to use defensive CDs or stop the damage.

My own opinion how to change the damage that Frostmages can dish out:

Mastery: Frostburn. Passive
Your Frostbolt, Magebomb spells, Ice Lance and Frostfire Bolt gain Frostburn effect when casted on a Frozen target, increasing the damage done to the target by n%

What does this change you might ask? Well, for starters Frozen Orb lost it's Mastery completely, resulting in about 15k Orb crits maximum.
Secondly, compared to current 5.4 PTR Mastery, it still promotes casting and isn't such a "magekiller" gamechanging.
Also, Deep Freeze will remain as it is: A damage cooldown that gives Frostmages the required killwindow building gamestyle which is still the reason you might want to have a mage in the team.

-------------

I hope I've cleared out my opinion clearly and I do want to see a slight nerf to Frostmages damage, but it shouldn't be on the massive scale it currently is on PTR. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated and I encourage the discussion about Frostmages PTR state kept on one thread to keep the voices of the community in one place, so it's easier for Blizzard employees to read it (yes they've said they read Arena Junkies aswell)
www.twitch.tv/crawthz - Gladiator Frostmage stream, please follow!

#2 scuzfail

scuzfail
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Sylvanas
  • Rampage / Saccage
  • Posts: 46
  • Talents: Fire 1/0/2/2/1/2
  • 2v2: 1857
  • 3v3: 2339
  • RBG: 2412

Posted 14 July 2013 - 10:56 AM

Good post!+rep

#3 Deadscumlord

Deadscumlord
  • Drjakethomas
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Kel'Thuzad
  • Nightfall
  • Posts: 462
  • Talents: Frost 0/2/0/2/0/2
  • RBG: 1954

Posted 14 July 2013 - 11:24 AM

Love the post. Explains what all real Frost Mages are feeling right now.


inb4 all the OMG FROST MAGES AREN'T GUNNA BE GODS comments.

Because as u said b4 "Deep + Orb is a damn powerfull skill currently and inexperienced players have huge trouble surviving this. This is why you see twice a day streams with titles such as "1v2 mage" and those are multiglad/r1 level players who play at 1k-1.5k MMR against players who have no idea how to use defensive CDs or stop the damage."

But for some reason retards people haven't figured this out for themselves yet.

#4 ellipticcurve

ellipticcurve
  • Junkies
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • EU-Outland
  • Misery
  • Posts: 32
  • Talents: Arms 0/1/2/1/1/0

Posted 14 July 2013 - 12:04 PM

I don’t know if a warrior’s perspective is wanted in this thread, but here it comes. ;-) I’ve played tons of healer/warrior vs healer/mage matches and did probably ~50 warrior vs mage duels on PTR (also fought against crawthz)
.
From my experience of playing against mages it’s a rather bad change. All mages are desperately fishing for procs (Fingers of Frost or PvE Trinket procs). I survive a deep with orb, frostbomb and ffb procs after the deep if they have neither FoF or PvE Trinket procs. If they have an FoF proc, it’s okay. Because you need a short 1-2 sec peel and you’ll survive without problems. If they have both FoF and PvE trinket proc you can simply /forfeit.

It looks like a change for low-mid experienced players that don’t know how to react to a deep + orb properly. But in my opinion it’s far worse now. You survive the first three deeps because he doesn’t have procs and then the fourth deep is an oneshot because he had procs. To be honest, it is slightly discouraging to see so much rng going on.

On Twitter Holinka said: “We're trying to find a lot for frost Mage mastery that isn't as boring as the most functional solution, "more frost damage” ". My interpretation of this goes like this: We have the most functional solution vs. a more “interesting” solution. The question is: Is a solution based on rng really more interesting? In my (and as it seems in Holinka’s) opinion it is not the most functional solution but in PvP we rely on having some sort of “functional solution” that doesn’t depend on rng. You want to be able to outplay the opponent’s team (set up cc and burst, force cooldowns, etc) and not wait for procs.

In my opinion mastery is a knob for devs to tweak the dmg numbers a bit. But if you change how mastery works to something completely different, it usually requires a lot of other changes to work properly. I cannot see these changes on PTR. So right now it feels like a bad version of ele shaman, because you have to set up cc and burst while waiting for procs. He can randomly oneshot someone. ;-)

#5 Dizzeeyo

Dizzeeyo
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Sylvanas
  • Rampage / Saccage
  • Posts: 1754
  • Talents: Frost 0/2/0/2/2/2
  • RBG: 2274

Posted 14 July 2013 - 12:56 PM

View PostCrawthz, on 14 July 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

I have said on Twitter to Holinka, that Frostmage is now a sad version of Elemental Shaman and the worst caster on PTR.
presumably, since elemental shamans have gotten nothing but buffs (even if they are minor buffs) this is exactly what they are aiming for :)

frost mages will still work, as cc bots for elemental shamans. but with the current warlock changes, lsd is going to be absolutely godly, so good luck finding that ele shaman xD

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#6 Wcduck

Wcduck
  • Members
  • Posts: 9

Posted 15 July 2013 - 06:57 PM

I'm no high rated mage, but I feel like Frozen Orb getting a damage nerf would do alot instead of this huge nerf to overall damage. I mean, 30k crits every second into a frozen target is ridicilous and if they cant nerf it because of PvE, atleast make it do less damage on players. I do not like the current playstyle of frost mages on PTR, just run around and fishing for procs isnt why I rolled the class, if I would have liked that playstyle I would have played a boomkin or something instead.

I'm also all for a damage nerf, but what we see on PTR is such a overkill.

#7 Icekingx

Icekingx
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Area 52
  • Retaliation
  • Posts: 974
  • Talents: Frost 1/1/0/2/0/2
  • RBG: 2351

Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:02 PM

I'm really happy you made time to post this and really let people know whats going on and how we feel. I agree 100% rep.

Rawrbertlol, on 14 June 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

Best signatures on entire website.
Posted Image

#8 Deadscumlord

Deadscumlord
  • Drjakethomas
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Kel'Thuzad
  • Nightfall
  • Posts: 462
  • Talents: Frost 0/2/0/2/0/2
  • RBG: 1954

Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:02 PM

View PostWcduck, on 15 July 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

I'm no high rated mage, but I feel like Frozen Orb getting a damage nerf would do alot instead of this huge nerf to overall damage. I mean, 30k crits every second into a frozen target is ridicilous and if they cant nerf it because of PvE, atleast make it do less damage on players. I do not like the current playstyle of frost mages on PTR, just run around and fishing for procs isnt why I rolled the class, if I would have liked that playstyle I would have played a boomkin or something instead.

I'm also all for a damage nerf, but what we see on PTR is such a overkill.

You sir have 1 post ever, and it is damn good one.   1/1 100%   +rep

#9

  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Outland
  • Misery
  • Talents: Fire 0/2/2/2/1/2
  • RBG: 2573

Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:07 PM

Very good post, deserves a sticky!, also it seems more and more that blizzard takes the casual/ 1hour/day players words over the top pvpers in this game and balances it around what X say is X overpowered, seeing theres a counter for most things, and you cant counter it always, cause then you wouldnt have any opponents would u?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

<