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Detailed Monk Fix Ideas (Windwalker)

how to fix broken class maybe

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#1 BalanceRexxar

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 02:43 AM

There are many abilities that need to be redesigned or fixed for monks to make it a more viable class. I'll make a list because I like lists. CHANGES I WANT ARE UNDERLINED AND BOLDED IN THE TOOLTIP.
  • Diffuse Magic


  • Fists of Fury


  • Spear Hand Strike


  • Tigereye Brew


  • Sparring


  • Ring of Peace


  • Touch of Karma


  • Zen Meditation


  • Paralysis

10. Blackout Kick and Rising Sun Kick

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1. My Commentary on Diffuse Magic: The primary fix this needs is to be able to be used while stunned. Almost all classes are able to save themselves without having to trinket anything, examples of these are, barkskin, disperse, iceblock, bubble, roar of sacrifice (sometimes), sacrificial pact, dark bargain, pain suppression, and shamanistic rage. By now you will have noticed there only a few class abilities aren't in that list, one of them is rogues, another is warriors, and lastly us monks. And we all know those 3 classes are pretty bad in arena right now. So here's the fixed version.

Diffuse Magic:
Reduces all spell damage taken by 90% and clears all magical effects on you, reversing them back to their original caster if within 40 yards if possible. Lasts for 6 sec. This ability can be used while stunned.



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2. My Commentary on Fists of Fury: The fix I'd like to see with this is a minor change that really won't effect it too much. The problem isn't that when you hit a pet and a player with it that it splits the damage the problem is that you're actually hitting two things instead of one. Because of lag, jumping, etc. I've had people jump out of the range of my fists of fury, walk right through it without being hit, just straight up missed when I'm right on then, also if pets are on my ass then the fists of fury will hit them even though my fists are going forward and I end up having to cancel it because I'm magically punching things behind me while facing forward. So here's the fix.

Fists of Fury:
Pummel all targets in front of you with rapid hand strikes, stunning them and dealing [X] damage immediately and every 1 sec for 4 sec.  Damage is spread evenly over all targets. This ability can be used while moving for the first 2 seconds of the channel.


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3. My Commentary on Spear Hand Strike: Clearly Blizzard doesn't learn from their mistakes or they would have fixed this already. All the 2s silence does on Spear Hand Strike is reward poor play, DR actual silences, and annoy the living shit out of everybody. Here's the fix.

Spear Hand Strike:
You jab the target in the throat, interrupting their spell cast and preventing any spell in that school from being cast for 4 sec. If the enemy is facing you when cast, they are also silenced for 2 sec.


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4. My Commentary on Tigereye Brew: It's perfectly fine AS IT IS the fact that I am posting a fix on a update that hasn't even gone live shows how they have no idea what is going on. I accept that this is mostly likely to buff PvE but if it goes into PvP monk damage will be stupid. The current problem it faces is against teams like Ret Hunter and Jungle who run in and force the monk defensive or go into peel mode where that aren't using as much chi therefore less stacks so they can't counter pressure all that one-shot mechanic that other classes have. I agree with this change here,

Bottled Fury has been redesigned. The Mastery now gives a chance to generate an additional charge of Tigereye Brew when the Monk gains one normally.

This will make it so we can do damage faster in the game but the change where you can consume 15 at a time for 6% each is crazy. Right now it's 10 for 3-4% per stack. And it's fine, making it 3.5% and removing the increased damage on Tigereye Brew off mastery and replacing it for the chance to get double stacks will be better. So if you actually read this and are confused here it is. THESE ARE MY CHANGES NOT ACTUAL PATCH NOTES!
  • Mastery: Bottled Fury has been redesigned. The Mastery now gives a chance to generate an additional charge of Tigereye Brew when the Monk gains one normally.
  • Tigereye Brew received a number of adjustments.
  • Stacks up to 30 charges (up from 20 charges). [This is okay nobody gets 20 stacks mid game are you kidding, purely PvE change I guess]
  • Can be consumed 10 at a time.
  • Increases damage by 4.5% per stack, but is no longer increased by Mastery.
  • The Monk gains 1 charge of Tigereye Brew for every 4 Chi spent (down from 1 charge per 3 Chi spent).
I know this will affect PvE so you need to get over yourselves and make special ability changes for PURELY arena. You say yourself it is too hard to balance PvE and PvP to make them both fair then don't. Make changes outside arena and RBG's for PvE then when you enter the arena you get changes. Simple as that.


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5. My Commentary on Sparring: Nobody likes RNG in arena, and sparring gives so much RNG it's dumb. It needs a complete redesign or removed completely. If anyone has actually faced a monk you know just how often you get your Leg Sweep parried then your Rising Sun Kick parried and then your Grapple Weapon dodged. It has happened to me and probably many more. All this ability does is give the monk passive RNG to luck out. Here is the change. And if this were to be a change glyph of sparring would need to be removed or redesigned as well.

Sparring:
When you are attacked by a melee enemy in front of you, you begin to spar their attacks, increasing your chance to parry by 5% for 10 sec. This effect has a 30 sec cooldown.
When you attack them back, Sparring is amplified by an additional 5%. Stacks up to 3 times.

When you are attacked by a enemy, you being to spar their attacks, reducing damage taken by 5% for 10 seconds. This effect has a 30 second cooldown. When you attack them back, Sparring is amplified by an additional 5%. Stacks up to 3 times.   


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6. My Commentary on Ring of Peace: Classic Blizzard, wants to nerf something and ends up obliterating it to make it next to useless. This ability also needs to be Re-Re-Designed. I agree that its original state was overpowered, basically a 8 second bubble against warriors, rogues, ret paladins, feral druids, etc. It was dumb I agree. But now it is useless against any melee with a weapon chain because it makes the disarm 1.5 to .75 to .375. And the first disarm may stop them for 1.5 seconds but it is triggered by an attack they will be on the GCD and chances are the disarm will be over before the GCD is. So absolute poop against melee. For caster's it is occasionally useful, most of the time I keep leg sweep or charging ox wave instead but against a mage team where I want to go the mage the majority of the game I take it, it can also be looked at similar to disrupting shout, it makes it okay but still not as good as Leg Sweep or Charging Ox Wave in my opinion. Gratz if you read this here is the fix. This would also need interrupts that require weapons to be redesigned.

Ring of Peace:   
Forms a sanctuary around the friendly target, instantly silencing and disarming all enemies for 3 sec. In addition, enemies who attack or cast spells on allies within the ring of peace will be disarmed and silenced for an additional 3 sec. Ring of Peace lasts for 8 sec.
Forms a sanctuary around the friendly target, all enemies within the ring of peace will be disarmed  but does not stop auto-attacks or interrupt abilities. If an enemy casts within the ring of peace they will be silenced for 3 seconds [with diminishing returns]. Ring of Peace lasts 4 seconds.   


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7. My Commentary on Touch of Karma: I find it hilarious how our only defensive ability against melee can be ice-blocked, bubbled, or dispelled via Hand of Protection. The fix for this is really simple.
  • Touch of Karma has been redesigned. It is now a two-step ability, the first step applies the buff to you absorbing damage and the second step applies the damage over time effect to whatever target you choose. When the Touch of Karma debuff is removed from who it was applied to it no longer removes the buff from the monk.
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8. My Commentary on Zen Meditation: This ability isn't very but it has a good simple fix. 3 minutes is too long for how long it lasts and what it does and how easily it can be stopped. Would probably effect PvE but again Blizzard needs to separate ability effects if they are in arena or not.

Zen Meditation:
3 2 min cooldown
Reduces all damage taken by 90% and redirects to you up to 5 harmful spells cast against party and raid members within 30 yards.  Lasts 8 sec.  
Being the victim of a melee attack will break your meditation, cancelling the effect. This ability can be used while silenced but is now susceptible to interrupts.   


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9. My Commentary on Paralysis: In the forum "What do monks need to be competitive" or something like that, people were talking how paralysis shouldn't be an incapacitate and DR with such things, I don't agree or disagree with that because I have no clue on how it would turn out, on idea I have for this is to make it share a DR with cyclone and then have it tested on PTR, I feel like it could easily become overpowered because of a 6s paralysis into 8s poly, 4s poly, 2s poly, wait a little bit then another 6s paralysis. I feel like it would have the potential to be overpowered. You can discuss it in the comments.


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10. My Commentary on Blackout Kick and Rising Sun Kick: RSK and BOK are two very different abilities damage wise. I think my highest Blackout Kick in PvP was around 80k and my highest Rising Sun Kick was 170k on a mage. That is bizarre. Although our Rising Sun Kick is a mini-burst I don't think we should be consistently hitting 120k+. Here is the fix.

Rising Sun Kick: Reduce Damage Slightly
Blackout Kick: Increase Damage Slightly

Balance this out. ;)

Edited by BalanceRexxar, 04 August 2013 - 03:15 AM.


#2 Marshmellow

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 02:58 AM

Definitely like the Diffuse magic change, seeing as the reflected effects double dip resilience and do nothing anyways,

Also I agree with removing the blanket silence off of SHS, but I think the lockout should be increased to 5 seconds again.

The Touch of Karma change is a very good suggestion I can't count how many times I was mongo'd down by rets/mages that just blocked/bopped it off and killed me, and perhaps with that change they can fix the problem with ToK double dipping resil

Zen Med change is good too but I find it dumb that it breaks on melee damage, you basically need perfect timing in order to eat hunter traps if they have the pet/melee hitting you

My favorite is the Sparring change, it gives us a needed passive DR that requires a high management of uptime
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#3 BalanceRexxar

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 03:29 AM

View PostMarshmellow, on 13 July 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

Definitely like the Diffuse magic change, seeing as the reflected effects double dip resilience and do nothing anyways,

Also I agree with removing the blanket silence off of SHS, but I think the lockout should be increased to 5 seconds again.

The Touch of Karma change is a very good suggestion I can't count how many times I was mongo'd down by rets/mages that just blocked/bopped it off and killed me, and perhaps with that change they can fix the problem with ToK double dipping resil

Zen Med change is good too but I find it dumb that it breaks on melee damage, you basically need perfect timing in order to eat hunter traps if they have the pet/melee hitting you

My favorite is the Sparring change, it gives us a needed passive DR that requires a high management of uptime

If we get 5s lockout on our kick all other melee too, that's the problem. I'm pretty sure some melee have a 5s lockout and some have 4s, if we're all 4 that's fine but if some have 5 they either need 4 or we should  get 5 too. And for touch of karma damage I don't really care, defensive cooldowns don't need to do damage, not a big deal but it couldn't hurt to have some extra damage. And thanks for reminding me of damage I still need to add something.

#4 Marshmellow

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 03:43 AM

View PostBalanceRexxar, on 13 July 2013 - 03:29 AM, said:

If we get 5s lockout on our kick all other melee too, that's the problem. I'm pretty sure some melee have a 5s lockout and some have 4s, if we're all 4 that's fine but if some have 5 they either need 4 or we should  get 5 too. And for touch of karma damage I don't really care, defensive cooldowns don't need to do damage, not a big deal but it couldn't hurt to have some extra damage. And thanks for reminding me of damage I still need to add something.

Agreed, some might call it homogenization but I think it's balance, and you are right every pummel should be either 5 sec or 4 sec not mixed

Also just read the Blackout Kick and Rising Sun Kick commentary and I like that idea, some people don't realize that Rising Sun Kick actually hits harder than Chaos Bolts sometimes and that is somewhat of a problems, it's a huge problem if the new Tigereye Brew changes go through.
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#5 Syncrow

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 04:21 AM

I agree with you for most points you have mentioned!!!

maybe a minor change for crackling jade lightning (not rly needed i know, but maybe another way to handle running enemies)
  • Minor/Major Glyph for WW: You are now able to use Crackling Jade Lightning while moving but in return it no longer generates chi
And one thing that has been bothering me, since I've reached lvl 90:

the lvl 90 talents:
  • Xuen (useful for all 3 specs)
  • Chi Torpedo (useful for 2-3 specs)
  • Rushing Jade Wind (useful...?¿)
So i think, Blizzard should rework Rushing Jade Wind or replace it with another spell! Especially for mistweaver / brewmaster monks it makes no sense to increase the aoe-output for heals or dmg (not to mention about ww monks), cause monks are rly good right now doing aoe-stuff, and you can't bring Rushing Jade Wind to the rotation very well.
Sry that i have just no idea how to fix it... i'll think about it!

#6 Marshmellow

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 04:42 AM

Glyph of Touch of Karma and Death need to be baseline also, I want to actually use the new glyphs
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#7 Syncrow

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 04:48 AM

View PostMarshmellow, on 13 July 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

Glyph of Touch of Karma and Death need to be baseline also, I want to actually use the new glyphs

maybe they will change ToK glyph but i don't think they will do it for ToD cause its a baseline ability for all 3 specs and ww is quite the only spec which benefits from it

#8 Saberstrike

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 11:19 AM

Good post.

Sparring - personally think it should just be a passive 15% damage reduction. I know Blizzard never goes the easy way but come the f' on, enough with the gimmicks. ;|

Most of monk glyphs need to be reworked and/or made baseline. Stoneskin? Afterlife? Expel Harm? Fortifying brew? Transcendence? All of those and more are garbage for the glyph slot they're supposed to go in. In turn that makes the few good glyphs we have (Karma, Death and Paralysis. Spinning Kick for pve) Mandatory, making the whole 'choice' system pointless. Making the four glyphs I mentioned baseline will fix things (although the other side of me wants to argue for touch of death to just disappear in favor of a small 5-10% damage buff across the board).

They should rebalance damage of tiger palm, rising sun and blackout. I understand priority but when one does THREE TIMES the damage of second best, it just feels bad. I also want tiger palm to be useful outside of giving tiger power; Truth be told I think things would feel better if tiger palm was our primary chi builder because jab is just a bad joke.

Agreed with diffuse magic change + think either it or healing elixirs should be made baseline (Or both?) along with Chi Wave for WW because no one ever uses anything else from the healing tier. I also think monks need a better heal than spheres to really be called a hybrid.

Final talent tier is also fairly trashy in that there's no real point in picking anything but Xuen as WW. Jade wind should be made Brewmaster only, roll-healing could be fun as baseline for all specs but it fits mistweaver the most. I don't think anyone wants rolls to do damage because it's bad, random, clunky, breaks CC and makes no sense.

#9 Smooviex

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 01:47 PM

I'm not a game designer or w.e so I wouldn't know how some of those changes would pan out... regardless, the only changes that looked reasonable were sparring / zen med.

Also, spear hand strike silence is garbage, needs to be removed completely.

#10 Neverever

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 04:49 PM

1. I think this level of dmg reduction might be too strong for the current cd and would have to be increased. I also like the part of the spell which reverses magical effects back to the caster and losing that would remove some flavour imo. Maybe have a glyph to do what you want diffuse magic to do so you can choose between its functions? Obviously karma/death would need to be baseline for choices, but this is so obvious it goes without saying.

2. I think for a lot of people fists of fury is already quite a cheesy ability since you can't trinket it, (although I think for monks overall atm its fine). I understand the problem of missing fists because of lag but I feel your suggestion would make an already cheesy ability even better so not sure about this one.

3. Possibly should be removed, at least if monks get some of the other buffs youre suggesting, but it has some great uses like preventing hunters from trapping after scatter etc.

4. How tigereye brew should be changed is really a pve matter so I can't comment on that.

5. Good change.

6. I find the blanket silence of ring of peace (and spear) very useful with the number of instant casts atm (very good for stopping a predatory swiftness, fof, lava surge proc or just giving your healer a bit more time to dispel it) but this is a decent change

7. Not sure about this one.

8. Zen meditation needs to only be broken by interrupts, nothing less, good change.

9. I suggested putting paralysis on the cyclone dr in that thread. I think this is by far the best change that they could do to monks. If you're worried about it being overpowered, what about spammable fear and spammable polymorph and spammable cyclone not having dr with each other?

10. I think we need what burst we can get and RSK is our primary way of bursting so balancing these would get rid of that. I, and so many monks, get kills through RSK crits. Would this be the best direction to go in?

View PostDizzeeyo, on 16 July 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages

#11 BalanceRexxar

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 08:25 PM

Good thoughts. If I were to write if I disagree or agree with all of those there would be a wall of text here so I'll keep it to myself because I don't have time to type that much haha. Keep brainstorming guys.

#12 Udderly

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 03:52 AM

Great start to a discussion.  Here are some of my thoughts (my numbering won't match yours).

1. RSK vs BOK is a very important ones.  Being able to global someone anytime your onuse trinket is up without them even knowing it's coming is insane.  I get 120k+ RSK's without cds and it's on a 6 sec cd!!  At the same time, trying to finish someone off with some weak sauce BOK's suuuuuucks.  I think you're right on track with a dmg redistribution.

2.  Blanket on Spear hand gone is right on track.  Done.

3.  Love the talk about making changes to diffuse magic, but two thoughts:
          a. It's already such a default choice that making it stronger has to take that into consideration, considering the only classes it isn't really good against is basically hunters/sub rogues/ warriors/other ww's.  
          b. I like the reflect idea, so it isn't just another AMS/Cloak.  It's part of the monk flavor, but you are right on the money about needing to blow two cds (trinket and touch or diffuse)

4. I'm glad to see that they have given Xuen a control bar since he runs around like a hammered freshman at a frat party but can we please get some other options in that tier?  In general i rarely change talents, but that tier especially - it isn't about picking the stronger talent, but rather picking THE ONLY talent.

5. I have no issues with the current itteration of zen med.  It's situational, requires skill to use, and is a great weapon vs. casters.  It doesn't have to be all powerful all the time.  As a long time Moonkin, I'll compare this to solarbeam.  It's always SUCKED vs. resto druids because they can shift roots while silenced or blink out (when ursols vortex was OP).  That was a limitation of the ability vs. that specific class.

6.  I have no issues with fists currently.  It's a fun skillful ability, and I'm happy with the gameplay.

7.  The glyph/talent situation suuuuuucks.  I hate being forced to take the touch glyphs and really only being able to rotate one slot.  I like planning glyphs and talents before matches (something i do often on my shaman) and I rarely touch either, other than to occasionally swap out paralysis glyph or swap to healing elixirs vs. a physical cleave.  

8.  ROP is junk.  Totally agree.  I love ox wave so I don't complain too much, but see point 7- I don't get to swap talents often.

9.  I put this last because I think it's the most important.  I sincerely hope they are taking a hard look at this mastery change.  Turtling to gain stacks on pets, etc. so that I can one shot something with an RSK will be funny once or twice and then just boring.  Please don't do this Blizz.

#13 BalanceRexxar

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 04:14 AM

If you're concerned about Rising Sun Kick doing less damage and us having no burst I said SLIGHTLY reduce, it won't be a huge impact.

If you're concerned about Diffuse Magic being a go to talent for everything you may be making the mistake of taking it against ANY caster which is a bad choice. I mainly take diffuse magic against double caster teams, for spriests you can just dispel DP so it isn't a big deal, destro locks are good for diffuse but UA locks, the healing elixirs is great to keep pressure off. I really don't use diffuse magic very often because hunter ret / feral disc is the majority of arena and that 15% healing every so often will heal a lot more damage than what diffuse magic would prevent.

For Xuen, not all of are abilities have to be great, we don't need him to be good he's just a thing we have. I don't think it needs a change that it isn't already getting.

Zen Meditation does need a change, I agree that it shouldn't be good in all situations and it won't, I left the breaks on melee thing on it but the CD is way to long for how often you use it, and if you get a silence it's over. Not very good at all.

Fists of Fury requires the enemy and yourself not to be lagging, not fair I think it need a minor fix to adjust for lag, if not 2 second channel while moving at least 1 to position it so it doesn't hit people behind you.

Glyphs aren't a big deal imo, who cares if you don't have to change your glyphs, we don't need the other glyphs.

Sparring 15% at all times would be OP, 30s per is okay imo.

That's a response for most of your comments I hope.

Edited by BalanceRexxar, 14 July 2013 - 04:44 AM.


#14 Marshmellow

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 04:33 AM

View PostBalanceRexxar, on 14 July 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

This is going to be a long post I have a lot to say let me edit it.
oh shit
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#15 Udderly

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 02:12 PM

View PostBalanceRexxar, on 14 July 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

If you're concerned about Rising Sun Kick doing less damage and us having no burst I said SLIGHTLY reduce, it won't be a huge impact.

If you're concerned about Diffuse Magic being a go to talent for everything you may be making the mistake of taking it against ANY caster which is a bad choice. I mainly take diffuse magic against double caster teams, for spriests you can just dispel DP so it isn't a big deal, destro locks are good for diffuse but UA locks, the healing elixirs is great to keep pressure off. I really don't use diffuse magic very often because hunter ret / feral disc is the majority of arena and that 15% healing every so often will heal a lot more damage than what diffuse magic would prevent.

For Xuen, not all of are abilities have to be great, we don't need him to be good he's just a thing we have. I don't think it needs a change that it isn't already getting.

Zen Meditation does need a change, I agree that it shouldn't be good in all situations and it won't, I left the breaks on melee thing on it but the CD is way to long for how often you use it, and if you get a silence it's over. Not very good at all.

Fists of Fury requires the enemy and yourself not to be lagging, not fair I think it need a minor fix to adjust for lag, if not 2 second channel while moving at least 1 to position it so it doesn't hit people behind you.

Glyphs aren't a big deal imo, who cares if you don't have to change your glyphs, we don't need the other glyphs.

Sparring 15% at all times would be OP, 30s per is okay imo.

That's a response for most of your comments I hope.

You missed me on the RSK point - I was agreeing with you about moving some damage out of RSK =)

You do make a fair point about diffuse vs. healing elixirs, but I still worry that making it more attractive will make the other choices even less viable.  Blizz is expending a lot of energy during MOP to try and make less attractive choices more viable, and tends to not touch the most viable other than some nerfs.  Would love a change to diffuse, just can't see it happening

For Xuen - I'm not saying he has to be great, but I'm saying I wish we had an actual choice in that tier.  He's the only viable choice by a mile.

Fists I can see your concern, but I just don't think the move while channel is good design.  Just my personal opinion.  I assume part of why they gave us the extra range on our set is try and make it easier to use, but idk how to fix it without making it stupid easy to use and broken - and I really do think being able to just hit it on the move would be broken.  Its already the best stun in the game (short cd, multiple targets, continues to do dmg, you can turn while channeling to stun an extra target).

And I guess we just disagree about the glyphs thing.  They are adding in some pretty cool stuff via glyphs during this PTR cycle so it would be nice to feel like they can even be used is all.

#16 BalanceRexxar

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 01:36 AM

After seeing Neverever post saying only a couple monks were complaining and that's probably why we're not getting any of the changes we need I took this to the PTR forums and was annihilated by PvE players and non-experienced PvPers, I have no faith in the battlenet forums anymore and I have no idea if blizzard even looks at AJ. I tried is all I can say.

#17 Syncrow

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 02:51 AM

View PostBalanceRexxar, on 05 August 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

that's probably why we're not getting any of the changes we need

bad news, and it's a pity, that we are not listened to because we are so few complaining about!!





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