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Does anyone think Rogue's are unviable because of how many cds they rely on?


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#21 Udderly

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 11:35 PM

View PostBootzx, on 14 July 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

Your class isn't designed around stealth so your vanish argument is invalid. Evasion is probably the worst defensive cool down in the game which is why you never see a druid symbi a rogue for evasion. (Not even sure what you meant about rallying cry we don't have that type of ability without symbi.) You die in a stun? Welcome to how this game has been since WoTLK but you do have two trinkets. Your mobility doesn't put you right at the target yeah but you get 3 different gap closers ontop of having ranged disarm / incapacitate.

That's just what you listed now lets go over the stuff you must not have keybound. The class actually has some decent self heals, you have an AoE stun that does really good damage, a 10 sec duration 1 min Bubble that disarms / silences. You have a blanket silence / kick so fuck being good at actually kicking someone to interrupt. You have a freedom / sprint in one button on a 30 second cool down, transcendence (port).

I think thats enough to not even mention touch of karma or the armor pen. I think rogues are fine minus a few things people actively complain when they feel there is a huge imbalance between certain classes but every class gets its 15 minutes imo. But monks in no way are lacking right now they are probably the most fun and one of the more rewarding classes to play if you play it well.

Relax tiger, you are taking what I said waaaaay too literally.  What I was trying to say is that you cannot compare the two with one ability for another like the guy I quoted was.  You continue to make my point, although it's funny that you chose RoP to highlight as it is absolutely worthless in its current incarnation against melee and only useful if you can stay on a caster (weapon chains DR the disarm to 1.5 secs, which is barely longer than a global).  Ultimately, I love WW and think it plays great.  But part of why it's not OP and amazing (as the guy I quoted seemed to think) is the fact that there is too much other shit in the game that is really OP.  

And btw, acting like vanish isn't a defensive if you're going to compare the classes is pretty ridiculous.  Not only does it get you out of trouble, but it allows the use of more cc, which can help save you defensively.  

Anyways long story short - I'm saying you can't compare the two classes ability by ability like was trying to be done and say monks are better because this ability is better than that ability.

#22 ysnakewoo

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 11:42 PM

View Postprokillur, on 13 July 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

What are you talking about, stop mindlessly parroting what Ghostcrawler has told you. Of course it's worth comparing, if Monks have everything Rogues have but better, and they feel ten times better designed than Rogues currently do then that is a problem whether you want to admit or not.

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#23 Doseisfresh

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 01:11 AM

Monks are dog since I can BoP off their only "good" defensive.
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#24 Bootzx

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 03:00 AM

View PostUdderly, on 14 July 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

Relax tiger, you are taking what I said waaaaay too literally.  What I was trying to say is that you cannot compare the two with one ability for another like the guy I quoted was.  You continue to make my point, although it's funny that you chose RoP to highlight as it is absolutely worthless in its current incarnation against melee and only useful if you can stay on a caster (weapon chains DR the disarm to 1.5 secs, which is barely longer than a global).  Ultimately, I love WW and think it plays great.  But part of why it's not OP and amazing (as the guy I quoted seemed to think) is the fact that there is too much other shit in the game that is really OP.  

And btw, acting like vanish isn't a defensive if you're going to compare the classes is pretty ridiculous.  Not only does it get you out of trouble, but it allows the use of more cc, which can help save you defensively.  

Anyways long story short - I'm saying you can't compare the two classes ability by ability like was trying to be done and say monks are better because this ability is better than that ability.

I didn't compare the class to rogues I am however telling you how your class has basically a little bit of everything and you complain about it, and act as if you want vanish bad. And honestly you are going to complain that you cant completely stop someone from training into whoever you decide to RoP for 10 sec because they can get in 3 globals during that 10 sec lock out? For the longest time, you couldn't use kick inside RoP.

Long story short you might have a brain tumor.

#25 Abidalzim

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 03:41 AM

View PostBootzx, on 15 July 2013 - 03:00 AM, said:

I didn't compare the class to rogues I am however telling you how your class has basically a little bit of everything and you complain about it, and act as if you want vanish bad. And honestly you are going to complain that you cant completely stop someone from training into whoever you decide to RoP for 10 sec because they can get in 3 globals during that 10 sec lock out? For the longest time, you couldn't use kick inside RoP.

Long story short you might have a brain tumor.
I don't think you know how ring of peace works, it's dogshit vs melee.
Zaka pa te če naja morš te ne, te pa če pa te ne čuj, kaj te to te je, ne?

#26 Abidalzim

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 03:44 AM

View Postprokillur, on 13 July 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Just play some Monk and you will see what I mean, look at their 3 minute defensive, rallying cry and 20% damage reduction in one button which lasts for TWENTY seconds, compared to our shitty Evasion. Just pop that shit and stay offensive, you are now a tank.
feint > monks defensive 3 min cd
Zaka pa te če naja morš te ne, te pa če pa te ne čuj, kaj te to te je, ne?

#27 Marshmellow

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 04:00 AM

I don't think any of the rogues in this thread have ever looked inside a monk's spellbook
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#28 Bootzx

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 04:07 AM

View PostAbidalzim, on 15 July 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:

feint > monks defensive 3 min cd

We weren't comparing I never complained about rogues I just don't let people bitch about their class because its the cool thing to do when you aren't at the top.

#29 Udderly

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 04:28 AM

View PostBootzx, on 15 July 2013 - 03:00 AM, said:

I didn't compare the class to rogues I am however telling you how your class has basically a little bit of everything and you complain about it, and act as if you want vanish bad. And honestly you are going to complain that you cant completely stop someone from training into whoever you decide to RoP for 10 sec because they can get in 3 globals during that 10 sec lock out? For the longest time, you couldn't use kick inside RoP.

Long story short you might have a brain tumor.

You need some serious reading lessons. I will try one last time for you.  I was never complaining about monks.  I only said they aren't an OP class that rogues should bitch about and compare to.  I also said that I wasn't even talking about you, but rather the other guy who posted.  Pls, L2read. kthxbye

#30 Baht

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 05:30 AM

imo rogues are too weak cause they die too easy in stuns, which is true for monks as well. i mean if you dont get stunned when the other team pops swifty you're fine as rogue right? sure your sustained dmg sucks as sublety and the sustained dmg from wwmonk is amazing, but rogue burst with cds is far higher/reliable than monk burst, which is really just the difference in class. imo rogues and monks are kinda at the same tier in terms of class balance but rogues have slightly better comps to run (not by a lot, pretty much just thug>a little better than any wwmonk comp). But yea personally i find it weird to compare monks to rogues, cause i've always been comparing them to enhancement myself (which is probably just my own weird prejudice cause of both being hybrids). Also some dude earlier in the thread mentioned how he felt stronger on honor geared wwmonk than full geared rogues in 2s - game isnt balanced around 2s and wwmonk is insane in 2s cause you can lock down the target trying to kill you long enough to escape so easy + you can solo every healer besides good rdruid or mw monk easily. So yea all my points are in relation to 3s. i feel like rogues are too squishy in stuns and so is rogues. BLAH BLAH WWMONKS HAVE 2 TRINKETS FOR STUN yea but really doesnt make a difference cause imo rogues have better defensive cds than wwmonk due to more of them makes ppl swap off instead of tunnelling through them, ie. vanish, combat readiness, evasion. Also ppl whining about evasion being too weak - dont get hit in the back then and deal with your defensive being rng with stuns.

Also im slightly drunk while writing this so feel free to flame n stuff. i'll clear stuff up later if nescesairy when i think properly

#31 Bootzx

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 05:40 AM

View PostUdderly, on 14 July 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

You might want to spend some time on your monk if you think we are so much better than rogues right now.  Monks are how classes SHOULD be designed, but don't fit well with the current system because they are lacking things that OP classes have in the way the game is ACTUALLY designed.  

Our cc is short and DR's with important things, our defensives are not as powerful as your making them out to be (you get cloak once a minute, we have to use a TALENT for a shittier version of cloak, you get to VANISH - so stop trying to just compare our barkskin with a rallying cry built in to your evasion and act like that's the whole thing), we get blown up hard in a stun, our mobility isn't fool proof dropping us right at our target, etc, etc.  

I'm not here to argue that rogues are amazing, but if you're going to compare classes, you picked a really poor choice....

Highlighted the part where you compare and complain.

I'm a tumor, I'm a tumor.

#32 Reirei

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 06:45 AM

i think rogues always relied on CDs

the issue is that many passives we had got removed or completely nerfed, the CDs we still have are rather suck version of what we had, our sustain is non existant and the biggest issue i personally have with this whole expac is amount of CCs they gave to other classes, that was probably the biggest nerf rogues received this expanstion, right off the bat i think rogues are only class that can do virtually nothing but use trinked when CCd atm
shut up pvp guy

#33 Nekracy

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:45 AM

View PostBootzx, on 15 July 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

Highlighted the part where you compare and complain.

I'm a tumor, I'm a tumor.

Don't even bother with him, he did exactly what he claimed he didn't and just to make himself look like more of a monitor-tanned autist, he finished with "kthnxbye" ...he's beyond saving

#34 Elorxo

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 10:04 AM

View PostReirei, on 15 July 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

i tink rogues always relied on CDs

the issue is that many passives we had got removed or completely nerfed, the CDs we still have are rather suck version of what we had, our sustain is non existant and the biggest issue i personally have with this whole expac is amount of CCs they gave to other classes, that was probably the biggest nerf rogues received this expanstion, right off the bat i think rogues are only class that can do virtually nothing but use trinked when CCd atm

don't forget every class having a second trinket.
dispel change has really hurt rogues too vs casters

#35 Doctor M

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 10:33 AM

View Postysnakewoo, on 14 July 2013 - 11:42 PM, said:


Posted Image

Worst +rep-fishing attempt I've ever seen...

View PostEsiwdeer, on 29 June 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

But look how fucking dumb it was like, a bot could Drain Mana just like a bot could play Hunter ATM.

#36 ysnakewoo

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 12:08 PM

View PostDoctor M, on 15 July 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

Worst +rep-fishing attempt I've ever seen...

Wasn't even an attempt, after seeing how stupid this guy is, it would have been pointless to try and write up a nice argument.

Thanks for the observation though.
I'm not useless, I can be used as a bad example.

#37 Udderly

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 12:39 PM

View PostNekracy, on 15 July 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

Don't even bother with him, he did exactly what he claimed he didn't and just to make himself look like more of a monitor-tanned autist, he finished with "kthnxbye" ...he's beyond saving

good comeback.  Please don't hurt my feelings so bad, I'm crying here now.  Weirdo.

View PostBootzx, on 15 July 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

Highlighted the part where you compare and complain.

I'm a tumor, I'm a tumor.

Clearly I didn't explain it well enough if that's what you think I'm doing.  If you read the post I quoted, I was pointing out that you CANT do that kind of comparison.  The guy I quoted pulled out a bunch of random abilities and tried to show that monks were soooo much better than rogues.  I was saying that sure I can do that too, look at all the other abilities we didn't mention.  whatever, I'm not going to spend my day arguing with you over wording - this is pointless.

#38 Reirei

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 10:55 AM

View PostElorxo, on 15 July 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

don't forget every class having a second trinket.
dispel change has really hurt rogues too vs casters

well yeah that too, i am guessing they still justify it with cloak, but all honestly regardless how stupid cloak itself is, in the world of spammable (sometimes undispellable) CCs it just feels weak sometimes compared to built in trinkets of some classes

i know people will probably rage at me saying, lol 1 min cloak is strong, yes it is but sometimes i wish i had another semi trinket or just anything i could use while CCd (for example feint)

looking how monks, shamys, hunters, dks, priests, locks etc. pop their crap while i give my best to keep them CCd makes me sad panda

sometimes it is not even rewarding to CC anything anymore, they will probably pop their 1000th trinket or some defensive and just lol @ you

i don't think they should nerf those classes however, i would rather have this game have less CCs in generall, CCs being more rewarding and not spammable, same with interrupts

the whole expansion is like hey lemme pop all my CDs, lemme throw as many CCs as i can and hope someone will drop in 3 sec...
shut up pvp guy

#39

Posted 16 July 2013 - 03:44 PM

View PostReirei, on 16 July 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

well yeah that too, i am guessing they still justify it with cloak, but all honestly regardless how stupid cloak itself is, in the world of spammable (sometimes undispellable) CCs it just feels weak sometimes compared to built in trinkets of some classes

i know people will probably rage at me saying, lol 1 min cloak is strong, yes it is but sometimes i wish i had another semi trinket or just anything i could use while CCd (for example feint)


I'm not sure Rogues would ever die if we had a defensive that could be used while stunned/feared/etc.  I think the Defensive talent tier they have provides a nice variety of options, it's just too bad that Cheat Death isn't even viable (completely broken and both Holinka/GC won't admit it).

**Edit, I do agree that it absolutely blows to die in a 4-5 sec stun while you spam cloak and/or vanish.  :(

#40 Maumaux

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 10:18 PM

Gotta love summer




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