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Does anyone think Rogue's are unviable because of how many cds they rely on?


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#1 Blaserc

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:16 PM

They have what, about 10 CDS? Which they rely on sooo much to not be one shot or to do any significant amounts of damage? This is also probably why they suck so much at rbgs. I mean look at most classes have what, 4 major cds around there?

I think they should get a complete rework come next patch, just like what locks got, so they're not completely useless for 3 minutes after popping a single cd.

#2 Vengeful95

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:26 PM

depends on what cds you're talking about, as for instance, you don't really need to have evasion or readiness up when e.g a warrior is training you, spam feint + healer healing you is pretty much enough, everything about a rogue depends on how good he is and how good his opponents are.

I'd say that rogue skill cap is higher than most classes because of this. Of course for RBG's if you run as subtlety you do pretty shiet damage than you'd do as assa and as assa spec in RBG's you should really be quite competetive to mages/DK's.

And to the last the reason I think you find rogues bad in RBG's (since thats what you brought up) is because they allways gets put in defense for base bgs, and for flag maps either defending flag or making a kill on the FC, either way rogues are really good for RBGs anyways.
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#3 Critmaker

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:31 PM

The only thing you really rely on is shadow dance, since you do nothing expect looking dumb in arena outside dance

#4 WildeHilde

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:32 PM

Subtlety rogues have to be weak because they have too much initial advantages. If rogues would do the same damage as a DK oor feral every arena team had a rogue. And subtlety rogues are probably the most annyoing class when overpowered.

Mutilate is an alternative with a much weaker opener but very competitive damage. In RBGs mutilate rogues can top the meters and unless the rogue has special tasks (guarding / assaulting nodes) mutilate is the clear winner. The interesting part is if you have a rogue that can play and has gear for both. Depending on bg and assigment they can switch around.

#5 prokillur

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 06:34 PM

We don't rely on CDs any more. Our CDs suck. Our class sucks.

Has anyone tried playing a Monk? They have Touch of Karma, Fortifying Brew, a million self heals, escapes, root breaks. It's an absolute joke of a class, just try playing a Monk in a few 2s game and you'll instantly see how outdated our class is. I feel more powerful as a Monk in honor gear than I do as a rogue in full Tyrannical.

#6 Sitlol

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:09 PM

Rogues dont suck lol, you probably either only play sub or you just aren't good at mut. Insane pressure outside of cds, with cds easy kills inside bomb. As for defensives you can't fuck the timing of when to use them or you're dead, but isn't that whats so great about arena, difference in skill levels

#7 Doctor M

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:14 PM

View PostSitlol, on 12 July 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

As for defensives you can't fuck the timing of when to use them or you're dead, but isn't that whats so great about arena, difference in skill levels

Oh yes, the differential between cloaking before the instant lava burst or not doing it - which results in instant death.

View PostEsiwdeer, on 29 June 2014 - 10:58 PM, said:

But look how fucking dumb it was like, a bot could Drain Mana just like a bot could play Hunter ATM.

#8 Marshmellow

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:14 PM

I think combat is the only spec that actually relies on cooldowns

mutlitate sustained damage is really good and you don't need vendetta to land a kill imo

#9 Vengeful95

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 08:45 PM

View Postprokillur, on 12 July 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

We don't rely on CDs any more. Our CDs suck. Our class sucks.

Has anyone tried playing a Monk? They have Touch of Karma, Fortifying Brew, a million self heals, escapes, root breaks. It's an absolute joke of a class, just try playing a Monk in a few 2s game and you'll instantly see how outdated our class is. I feel more powerful as a Monk in honor gear than I do as a rogue in full Tyrannical.

Are we both playing World of Warcraft? Because I start to question if you do... Yes our class is outdated but comparing classes is with "balancing" is never a good option.. And what do you expect? the newest class to not be up to date? And to be fair I haven't seen any great ww monks so far into this expansion. I guess it's a low skill-cap for a bad class?
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#10 prokillur

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 08:11 AM

View PostVengeful95, on 12 July 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

Are we both playing World of Warcraft? Because I start to question if you do... Yes our class is outdated but comparing classes is with "balancing" is never a good option.. And what do you expect? the newest class to not be up to date? And to be fair I haven't seen any great ww monks so far into this expansion. I guess it's a low skill-cap for a bad class?

What are you talking about, stop mindlessly parroting what Ghostcrawler has told you. Of course it's worth comparing, if Monks have everything Rogues have but better, and they feel ten times better designed than Rogues currently do then that is a problem whether you want to admit or not.

Just play some Monk and you will see what I mean, look at their 3 minute defensive, rallying cry and 20% damage reduction in one button which lasts for TWENTY seconds, compared to our shitty Evasion. Just pop that shit and stay offensive, you are now a tank.

My original point was only that to be reliant on CDs they have to be good, most of our CDs suck shit by current standards. We aren't reliant on anything, except for the developers finally pulling their head's out of their asses.

#11 Bootzx

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 08:55 AM

Tricks + 10% damage on KS + 5% spell damage master poisoner. Don't always need dance to force cooldowns. WW monks are kind of the season 12 war of this patch with all the cool shit they have. @ hilde the opener isnt as bursty initially (first 3-5 sec) but every kidney after that is going to hurt.

#12 Forumz

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 09:07 AM

View PostBootzx, on 13 July 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

WW monks are kind of the season 12 war of this patch

wat
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#13 Vengeful95

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 09:40 AM

View Postprokillur, on 13 July 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

What are you talking about, stop mindlessly parroting what Ghostcrawler has told you. Of course it's worth comparing, if Monks have everything Rogues have but better, and they feel ten times better designed than Rogues currently do then that is a problem whether you want to admit or not.

Just play some Monk and you will see what I mean, look at their 3 minute defensive, rallying cry and 20% damage reduction in one button which lasts for TWENTY seconds, compared to our shitty Evasion. Just pop that shit and stay offensive, you are now a tank.

My original point was only that to be reliant on CDs they have to be good, most of our CDs suck shit by current standards. We aren't reliant on anything, except for the developers finally pulling their head's out of their asses.

Tell me, does monks have shadow blades? stealth? vanish? prep? shadow dance? evasion? readiness? I know they have some kind of evasion while dissarmed but I haven't seen any monk having some kind of better version of shadow blades or any of those i mentioned... so you tell me.
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#14 Vengeful95

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 09:42 AM

And btw I have a 90 monk I know how the class works the only thing that I'd like for rogues to have that monks have is combo points on player instead of target, besides from that I know of no good monks that actually is pretty fucking decent and knows how to play, and which in my conclusion is it's a bad class since no one is rolling monks because of fotm yo.
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#15 Vengeful95

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 09:43 AM

View PostBootzx, on 13 July 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

Tricks + 10% damage on KS + 5% spell damage master poisoner. Don't always need dance to force cooldowns. WW monks are kind of the season 12 war of this patch with all the cool shit they have. @ hilde the opener isnt as bursty initially (first 3-5 sec) but every kidney after that is going to hurt.

What do you mean with cool shit? Ring got nerfed only cool thing I've seen coming out from a monks ass...
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#16 Vengeful95

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 09:45 AM

View Postprokillur, on 13 July 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

What are you talking about, stop mindlessly parroting what Ghostcrawler has told you. Of course it's worth comparing, if Monks have everything Rogues have but better, and they feel ten times better designed than Rogues currently do then that is a problem whether you want to admit or not.

Also, if you want to balance a game comparing classes cd's is not a good show... like, how would it be then? every class got blade storm? OH SHIET, MY ROGUE NEEDS BLADE STORM BECAUSE WARRIORS HAS IT! HUE HUE HUE
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#17 WildeHilde

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 10:27 AM

View PostBootzx, on 13 July 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

Tricks + 10% damage on KS + 5% spell damage master poisoner. Don't always need dance to force cooldowns. WW monks are kind of the season 12 war of this patch with all the cool shit they have. @ hilde the opener isnt as bursty initially (first 3-5 sec) but every kidney after that is going to hurt.

That is exactly the point. Every thirty second you have a burst window and partner classes do a huge amount of extra damage. It's just a lot of micro managing to keep bleeds up, keep debuffs up etc. but you have a lot more opportunities to kill someone (every time Tricks & Kidney are ready).

#18 prokillur

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 08:36 PM

View PostVengeful95, on 13 July 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

What do you mean with cool shit? Ring got nerfed only cool thing I've seen coming out from a monks ass...

Please step away from the keyboard

#19 Udderly

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 10:10 PM

View Postprokillur, on 12 July 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

We don't rely on CDs any more. Our CDs suck. Our class sucks.

Has anyone tried playing a Monk? They have Touch of Karma, Fortifying Brew, a million self heals, escapes, root breaks. It's an absolute joke of a class, just try playing a Monk in a few 2s game and you'll instantly see how outdated our class is. I feel more powerful as a Monk in honor gear than I do as a rogue in full Tyrannical.

View Postprokillur, on 13 July 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

What are you talking about, stop mindlessly parroting what Ghostcrawler has told you. Of course it's worth comparing, if Monks have everything Rogues have but better, and they feel ten times better designed than Rogues currently do then that is a problem whether you want to admit or not.

Just play some Monk and you will see what I mean, look at their 3 minute defensive, rallying cry and 20% damage reduction in one button which lasts for TWENTY seconds, compared to our shitty Evasion. Just pop that shit and stay offensive, you are now a tank.

My original point was only that to be reliant on CDs they have to be good, most of our CDs suck shit by current standards. We aren't reliant on anything, except for the developers finally pulling their head's out of their asses.

You might want to spend some time on your monk if you think we are so much better than rogues right now.  Monks are how classes SHOULD be designed, but don't fit well with the current system because they are lacking things that OP classes have in the way the game is ACTUALLY designed.  

Our cc is short and DR's with important things, our defensives are not as powerful as your making them out to be (you get cloak once a minute, we have to use a TALENT for a shittier version of cloak, you get to VANISH - so stop trying to just compare our barkskin with a rallying cry built in to your evasion and act like that's the whole thing), we get blown up hard in a stun, our mobility isn't fool proof dropping us right at our target, etc, etc.  

I'm not here to argue that rogues are amazing, but if you're going to compare classes, you picked a really poor choice....

#20 Bootzx

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 11:14 PM

View PostUdderly, on 14 July 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

You might want to spend some time on your monk if you think we are so much better than rogues right now.  Monks are how classes SHOULD be designed, but don't fit well with the current system because they are lacking things that OP classes have in the way the game is ACTUALLY designed.  

Our cc is short and DR's with important things, our defensives are not as powerful as your making them out to be (you get cloak once a minute, we have to use a TALENT for a shittier version of cloak, you get to VANISH - so stop trying to just compare our barkskin with a rallying cry built in to your evasion and act like that's the whole thing), we get blown up hard in a stun, our mobility isn't fool proof dropping us right at our target, etc, etc.  

I'm not here to argue that rogues are amazing, but if you're going to compare classes, you picked a really poor choice....

Your class isn't designed around stealth so your vanish argument is invalid. Evasion is probably the worst defensive cool down in the game which is why you never see a druid symbi a rogue for evasion. (Not even sure what you meant about rallying cry we don't have that type of ability without symbi.) You die in a stun? Welcome to how this game has been since WoTLK but you do have two trinkets. Your mobility doesn't put you right at the target yeah but you get 3 different gap closers ontop of having ranged disarm / incapacitate.

That's just what you listed now lets go over the stuff you must not have keybound. The class actually has some decent self heals, you have an AoE stun that does really good damage, a 10 sec duration 1 min Bubble that disarms / silences. You have a blanket silence / kick so fuck being good at actually kicking someone to interrupt. You have a freedom / sprint in one button on a 30 second cool down, transcendence (port).

I think thats enough to not even mention touch of karma or the armor pen. I think rogues are fine minus a few things people actively complain when they feel there is a huge imbalance between certain classes but every class gets its 15 minutes imo. But monks in no way are lacking right now they are probably the most fun and one of the more rewarding classes to play if you play it well.




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