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Whats the point of melee anymore?

melee suck

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#161 Atkinson

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 09:46 PM

Not going to lie say i read this whole thread top to bottom but ret paladins and ferals would like to have a talk with u. And rogues and wars next patch would also like to join the meeting
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Posted 20 July 2013 - 09:53 PM

View PostAtkinson, on 20 July 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

Not going to lie say i read this whole thread top to bottom but ret paladins and ferals would like to have a talk with u.

yea, except those are the only two melee even worth playing. maybe dk but you literally have to play phdk. and why play phdk when you can play jungle/ret hunt disc

#163 Hackattack3

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 01:45 AM

View Postxvee, on 20 July 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

yea, except those are the only two melee even worth playing. maybe dk but you literally have to play phdk. and why play phdk when you can play jungle/ret hunt disc

That's not a melee specific problem, everyone has that problem.

Why bring a hpal when rdruid and disc are really strong, or why bring a boomer/spriest when el shammys are gods. etc

#164 ROKMODE

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 03:57 AM

View PostHackattack3, on 21 July 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

That's not a melee specific problem, everyone has that problem.

Why bring a hpal when rdruid and disc are really strong, or why bring a boomer/spriest when el shammys are gods. etc
Not to tackle you at all, but this is a game issue even moreso. The game can still be interesting when the balance isn't great though. There's always dominating classes/specs, and it's rare that any class is ever consistent, aside from warlocks. I mean, just to use ele shamans as a good example, they were great in wrath and took precedence over a lot of other casters, but they were not preferable in cata in the slightest. Even after a ton of buffs in s11, they were easily the worst viable caster and had a ton of issues. Fast forward to current day mop where they are the target of all complaints. The game has always been a stupid rollercoaster in that regard. I think the focus of this thread is less-so that melee are weaker and moreso that they are fundamentally poorly designed with how the direction of the game has gone. I think that's what it's about anyway.

edit: I didn't play s10, so if ele was great in s10 then don't scrutinize what I'm saying too much.

Edited by ROKMODE, 21 July 2013 - 04:01 AM.

Expect bias in posts because
Wotlk is the best thing since sliced bread

#165 GrieverZ

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:10 AM

Game is just bloated with too much of everything (CC, Burst, Immunities, Trinkets, etc) because of how devs insist in making new "cool" spells or giving everyone every mechanics, making every patch a never ending arms race creating more broken mechanics to fix the previous broken mechanics.

They really need to clean up every classes and cut the fat, give specs their specific niches back, etc. Would take massive work, specially taking PvE into account though so i won't hold my breath.

Can't wait to see whatever "cool" spells they will come up with next expansions.

In before :

Spoiler

Edited by GrieverZ, 21 July 2013 - 09:18 AM.


#166 Sivler

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:17 AM

View PostGrieverZ, on 21 July 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:


In before :

Spoiler

That should be a warrior baseline spell.
Makes sense in the lore, trust me i read the warcraft novels.

#167 Okayenhance

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 02:01 PM

View PostAtkinson, on 20 July 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

Not going to lie say i read this whole thread top to bottom but ret paladins and ferals would like to have a talk with u. And rogues and wars next patch would also like to join the meeting
Yeah man those rets are playing all kinds of things other than priest/hunter/ret.

Ferals are the only melee that can even be considered viable and yet here they are getting huge nerfs next patch.


I don't care if there are outliers, the threads about how the game has been heading where casters lost their initial weaknesses as listed in the front page while melee have overall gained weaknesses due to new 'supercool' mechanics for casters blizzard has invented (gateway..)

Edited by Okayenhance, 21 July 2013 - 02:02 PM.


#168 elorahnahimi

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:54 AM

View PostEazymothafukne, on 08 July 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

Veev had a good point about casters vs melee atm and he said that the ladders are mostly filled with casters/wizards and barely any melee and when a caster team does fight a melee and lose they normally call that melee comp scum lords / faceroll even tho you rarely ever fight melee in the top.

most of the time when one of those cleaves beats said caster cleave the game ends in sub 10 seconds with a plethora or random instant cast interrupts/cc.

you can argue melee cleaves dont have cc, but in a game where classes are fully capable of killing someone in 4-5 seconds solo, one random 5-8 second instant cc is all it takes.
What this game really needs is a Duelist mount. It can be the same model as the Gladiator mount, but maybe have a gimpy leg and only be able to fly around in circles. I'd still ride it.

#169 elorahnahimi

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:57 AM

View PostFuguFish, on 10 July 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

Isn't it weird that everybody has become so acclimatised to the game that no one even questions the fact that casters don't actually CAST much anymore? Pretty much every caster has some stupid mongoloid on-demand swifty mechanic that is no more skillful to use than a hunter's cooldown. The only downside is that you can peel caster burst if they don't bother to cc before using it.

Also extra dispels (i.e ret sac, imp, tremor, even md maybe), trinket effects, and immune effects needs to be reviewed in a game where dispel is on a cd. It is not rewarding to have baited out dispel just for the enemy to be covered by some ridiculous mechanic.

what is it casters could cast in this game right now? if you want to bring casting back, you'd have to nerf every melee class into the ground, it's not even possible to cast spells anymore.

the only time melee is ever viable is when they do insane unhealable unpeelable damage in the opener, i very much miss the old days of arena when you could actually get away from cleaves/kite them.

everytime i heal arena now, if it's a jungle cleave or phdk the game starts and and i either eat spam instant 3 second cc/interrupts and lose to unhealable damage, or we survive the opener and get a free win.

the game is just in a really bad place now.

Edited by elorahnahimi, 23 August 2013 - 07:02 AM.

What this game really needs is a Duelist mount. It can be the same model as the Gladiator mount, but maybe have a gimpy leg and only be able to fly around in circles. I'd still ride it.

#170 ROKMODE

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 07:33 AM

View Postelorahnahimi, on 23 August 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

what is it casters could cast in this game right now? if you want to bring casting back, you'd have to nerf every melee class into the ground, it's not even possible to cast spells anymore.

the only time melee is ever viable is when they do insane unhealable unpeelable damage in the opener, i very much miss the old days of arena when you could actually get away from cleaves/kite them.

everytime i heal arena now, if it's a jungle cleave or phdk the game starts and and i either eat spam instant 3 second cc/interrupts and lose to unhealable damage, or we survive the opener and get a free win.

the game is just in a really bad place now.
I thought u quit
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#171 Okayenhance

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 08:06 AM

View Postelorahnahimi, on 23 August 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

what is it casters could cast in this game right now? if you want to bring casting back, you'd have to nerf every melee class into the ground, it's not even possible to cast spells anymore.

the only time melee is ever viable is when they do insane unhealable unpeelable damage in the opener, i very much miss the old days of arena when you could actually get away from cleaves/kite them.

everytime i heal arena now, if it's a jungle cleave or phdk the game starts and and i either eat spam instant 3 second cc/interrupts and lose to unhealable damage, or we survive the opener and get a free win.

the game is just in a really bad place now.

Both of those comps you listed have a hunter on them, which have the most cc of any class currently in the game. Note that they are NOT melee though, but rather a caster without the downfalls of a caster and a melee without the downfalls of a melee. They are truly a superclass.

And you can't kite a melee? Which melee? Warriors, enhance, rogues, dks even ret paladins can be kited by nearly every caster. Only ferals are exempt from being kited.

#172 watchmepwn

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 08:30 AM

View PostOkayenhance, on 23 August 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

Both of those comps you listed have a hunter on them, which have the most cc of any class currently in the game. Note that they are NOT melee though, but rather a caster without the downfalls of a caster and a melee without the downfalls of a melee. They are truly a superclass.

And you can't kite a melee? Which melee? Warriors, enhance, rogues, dks even ret paladins can be kited by nearly every caster. Only ferals are exempt from being kited.

Not really.
Melee's are in a good shape, the thing is what do you wanna achieve with this thread?
Let's say that there are 3 type of comps:
Healer/caster/melee -- Healer/caster/caster -- Healer/melee/melee

So when a healer/melee/melee is not that populair on ladders, melee's are bad? There is no reason to play a 'melee' anymore?
Im sorry but that kind of thoughts are just retarded. This is the thing: Melee's bring overal high damage on casters, casters can escape melee's by using theire magical powers to kite them. Now, if you wanna remove the possibility to kite. You destroy the casters. Now if you wanna hit casters like a truck, you have to give every caster cloth and less armor. There you go, you got ur 'domination'. But then there is another problem, since the game has become a non-casting game (all instants), its impossible to get casts of. WHY? do you ask, because of the million interrupts and stuns overall melee's have.

Im a fan of melee/caster/heal comps, as long as those comps are viable. I don't want people to start complaining. Healer/caster/caster has allways been a strong, but don't forget how easy an rmp (for example) should be able to outplay the wizzards. Now for a healer/melee/melee it's a little bit harder to beat the healer/caster/caster team, unless you have full uptime and know when to engange and playdefensive. BUt that last part is hard for most melee;s, since they are used to run a mongo cleave and run in and start killing the shit out of everything. If that doesn't succeceed, they lose and say: melee is bad.

You get where im aiming at?

#173 Okayenhance

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 10:03 AM

View Postwatchmepwn, on 23 August 2013 - 08:30 AM, said:

Not really.
Melee's are in a good shape, the thing is what do you wanna achieve with this thread?
Let's say that there are 3 type of comps:
Healer/caster/melee -- Healer/caster/caster -- Healer/melee/melee

So when a healer/melee/melee is not that populair on ladders, melee's are bad? There is no reason to play a 'melee' anymore?
Im sorry but that kind of thoughts are just retarded. This is the thing: Melee's bring overal high damage on casters, casters can escape melee's by using theire magical powers to kite them. Now, if you wanna remove the possibility to kite. You destroy the casters. Now if you wanna hit casters like a truck, you have to give every caster cloth and less armor. There you go, you got ur 'domination'. But then there is another problem, since the game has become a non-casting game (all instants), its impossible to get casts of. WHY? do you ask, because of the million interrupts and stuns overall melee's have.

Im a fan of melee/caster/heal comps, as long as those comps are viable. I don't want people to start complaining. Healer/caster/caster has allways been a strong, but don't forget how easy an rmp (for example) should be able to outplay the wizzards. Now for a healer/melee/melee it's a little bit harder to beat the healer/caster/caster team, unless you have full uptime and know when to engange and playdefensive. BUt that last part is hard for most melee;s, since they are used to run a mongo cleave and run in and start killing the shit out of everything. If that doesn't succeceed, they lose and say: melee is bad.

You get where im aiming at?
My point of the thread is shown at the very first post. Simply put: Melee in most cases get out damaged, get put in bad positions and have less defensives overall than all casters in this game. A melee cannot simply 'mongo' as you say in the current game because an ele shaman or mage will wizard all over them while running around a pillar. As I stated in the first post melee used to bring supreme sustained damage and would use that to gain pressure and eventually oom the casters (all casters) on the other team if they didnt utilize their superior cc and burst potential.

Now casters can mess up 20 times in a game and it doesn't matter. Mana? What's that? Jk jade spirit/infinite mana mechanics. I bet most mages don't even make mana gems anymore. When is the last time you saw a mage evocate for mana?

How do you play defensive as a melee when you're getting hit harder than you hit the casters while trying to retreat? How do you gain pressure when you are dispelled from a spammable cc and put into another one? I gave several good reasons why melee are bad right now in my original post and you just dismissed all that and take it that I want to, as you put it, run a 'mongo cleave and run in and start killing the shit out of everything' because as far as i'm concerned that's what every wizard cleave does right now with far more success and defensives.

#174 Speedymart

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 06:29 PM

I think the casters having the same health as melee is a strong point


Quote

. I bet most mages don't even make mana gems anymore.
I personally haven't made a mana gem on my mage this entire expansion

Edited by Speedymart, 23 August 2013 - 06:36 PM.

Posted Image

#175 Alexandrius

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:44 PM

I make mana gems they allow me to spam spell steal an extra two times :). I really agree with pretty much all these statements.  I played some on arena tournament server and realized that at lvl 80 a big reason to bring a caster to a threes team was to control the other team enough so your melee can do alot of dmg and oom the other team.  Uptime by melee meant mana would be depleted Quickly and on top of that it was very hard to get back.  I really liked that meta, especially because landing a cc felt very rewarding, as did interrupting a caster.  Nowadays when you play a comp, even rmp, it seems to be more do a cc rotation on healer and force enemy to cycle defensives until your teams pve rotation lands a kill/out pressures.  It's very anti climactic and it feels like there is a layer of complexity missing from the game, which feels even more odd and hard to put your finger on when you consider we have twice as many abilities.  But the core meta gameplay is screwed up so the game is still worse.  Mechanics and meta > ability bloat and fluff any day of the week IMO.

#176 elorahnahimi

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 06:43 AM

View PostOkayenhance, on 23 August 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

Both of those comps you listed have a hunter on them, which have the most cc of any class currently in the game. Note that they are NOT melee though, but rather a caster without the downfalls of a caster and a melee without the downfalls of a melee. They are truly a superclass.

And you can't kite a melee? Which melee? Warriors, enhance, rogues, dks even ret paladins can be kited by nearly every caster. Only ferals are exempt from being kited.
i have zero problems sticking on casters, the only ranged classes i cant stick on and have insane uptime is hunter/mage, i can tunnel warlocks into the ground as feral/dk or warrior, even with portal/gate you can still stick on them
What this game really needs is a Duelist mount. It can be the same model as the Gladiator mount, but maybe have a gimpy leg and only be able to fly around in circles. I'd still ride it.

#177 Braindance

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 06:52 AM

What the point of this thread anymore?

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#178 elorahnahimi

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 06:54 AM

View PostROKMODE, on 23 August 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

I thought u quit

i did, coming back for cross server arena because i'll actually have people to play with.
What this game really needs is a Duelist mount. It can be the same model as the Gladiator mount, but maybe have a gimpy leg and only be able to fly around in circles. I'd still ride it.

#179 Messman

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 08:10 PM

So what melee/caster/healer comp will actually be viable in 5.4?

#180 Speedymart

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 08:10 AM

View PostMessman, on 28 August 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

So what melee/caster/healer comp will actually be viable in 5.4?
WLD is looking good
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