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#41 Woundman

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 03:13 AM

Glyph of Recovery is probably going to be mandatory, but this all depends on damage output and survivability.

Glyph of Recovery will make Combat a much worse spec, because there is no room for the rotation. It's between SnD and KS.

Mutilate on the other hand will have trouble keeping recuperate up as well, but not nearly as much as Combat.

These are good changes, but could have been a lot better. I really don't want another Cataclysm. Being pigeon holed into one spec really pisses me off.

But then again, this is all speculation and what do I know?

Edited by Woundman, 04 July 2013 - 03:19 AM.


#42 Praii

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 03:14 AM

rogues are fine

#43 KPul

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 03:40 AM

If the sang veins glyph came out for hemo i still wouldnt use it. I have no issues keeping up SnD and rupture. Not many people realize how crucial glyph of garrote and glyph of cheap shot are... glyph of cheap shot allows rogues in subterfuge, as long as they have SnD up,  to Cheapshot > Rupture > Ambush x2 > Kidney shot. If you remove the glyph of cheap shot the target will be able to cast their selective instant cast CC ability before the rogue can kidney.   Or the rogue will have to sacrifice an ambush to get it off and in that case it will be an even shorter Kidney because of the rogue not having 5 combos on the target.

Also, Same thing goes with glyph of garrote.  Glyph of garrote allows rogues, in subterfuge with SnD up, to garrote > ambush x2 > kidney. If you remove that glyph you will only be able to garrote > ambush > kidney and the kidney will only be with 3 combos. In that particular case the rogue would be forced to garrote > ambush > cheapshot, and then at that point they are extremely energy drained.

So just to let you guys know, as a sub rogue, i will still be keeping glyph of cheap shot / garrote , because they are 100% necessary to do effective openers.

Edited by KPul, 04 July 2013 - 03:41 AM.

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#44 KPul

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 03:50 AM

Also, for once, I would love to hear them explain the reasons why they pick these particular areas to buff and why they choose to have it in a glyph instead of just a baseline buff.      The glyph of recovery is absurd, i hate it.   The very fact that I have to waste combos on recup to benefit from it makes my balls itch.

Why is recuperate the target to balance rogues,  since when this entire damn xpac has a relevant rogue posted on the forums saying. "Man I sure do wish recuperate got buffed."

I wonder if they realize that, outside of find weakness windows,   Our healing per second with recuperate up will be more than our Damage per second on an enemy player.
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#45 Deadscumlord

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 05:26 AM

View Postmimmick, on 03 July 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

Should make garrote/cheapshot glyph into 1 glyph than like people have said before.

haha  jk.


I want poly and deep and CS glyph all baked into one because they are my control abilities.

#46 mimmick

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 05:38 AM

View PostChristymarie, on 04 July 2013 - 05:26 AM, said:

haha  jk.


I want poly and deep and CS glyph all baked into one because they are my control abilities.
Dunno why you waste your breath posting. Completely different classes fucking idiot,

#47 Marshmellow

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 05:53 AM

View Postmimmick, on 04 July 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

Dunno why you waste your breath posting. Completely different classes fucking idiot,

and yet here you are replying to a troll post
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#48 Krumme

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 05:59 AM

View PostWoundman, on 03 July 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

Last I checked, Eviscerate did significantly more damage than Rupture. But then again, I heard that on IRC.I would of liked them to remove the requirement, as that would make rotations far less complex.But hey, what do I know?

Against most targets (even with FW) Rupture is a significant damage increase compared to Eviscerate. I was in the process of writing a detailed post on sustained subtlety damage a few weeks ago when I decided to scrap it because of exams.

The major points were to use big 5PT Ruptures and using Backstab instead of Hemo, and I made some calculations comparing Evis and Rupture on different targets with and without FW. I can probably find those calculations again soon.

#49 Woundman

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 06:19 AM

View PostKrumme, on 04 July 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

Against most targets (even with FW) Rupture is a significant damage increase compared to Eviscerate. I was in the process of writing a detailed post on sustained subtlety damage a few weeks ago when I decided to scrap it because of exams.

The major points were to use big 5PT Ruptures and using Backstab instead of Hemo, and I made some calculations comparing Evis and Rupture on different targets with and without FW. I can probably find those calculations again soon.

I find it very hard to believe Rupture does significantly more damage than Eviscerate. If anything, it is miniscule. Maybe per energy it does more damage, but that is nothing new.Either way, Eviscerate has always been more appealing to use than Rupture in PvP because of the play style requirement of the Rogue class (unless you're mutilate of course).I don't understand why anyone would ever Hemo over Backstab when you're capable of Backstabbing. Backstab does more damage per energy than Hemo.There were calculations way back (world of ming days), comparing Eviscerate and Rupture, and the conclusion was Rupture did more damage per energy than Eviscerate. But regardless, Rogues still continued to use Eviscerate because of the play style requirement.If you have free time, I would greatly appreciate the calculations being done. I take interest in those kind of things. :)

#50 mimmick

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 06:33 AM

View PostMarshmellow, on 04 July 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

and yet here you are replying to a troll post
grats on access m8

#51 Ashleylol

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 06:40 AM

these are great changes for us - but they need to be passives not glyphs! as we have 3 mandatory glyphs atm, they should either make the cs and garrote glyphs passive on the spell, or the other way round with the new changes! but a step in the right direction!
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#52 Sxynes

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 06:43 AM

Been playing a lot lately on PTR and rogues are just too powerful, instant 1 shots, or 5sec stunlock kills. the stealth opener makes anyone a easy kill target on PTR due to the new gear etc. but overall every class does more dmg. For a rogue it is just beneficial as they get their opener.

#53 Reirei

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 06:45 AM

could be good changes, the issue is that they are all bound to glyphs.... we don't really have enough glyph slots tbh

glyph of blind is a must you can't get around it really unless you play with something that doesn't have dots
shut up pvp guy

#54 WildeHilde

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 07:36 AM

View PostWoundman, on 04 July 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

I find it very hard to believe Rupture does significantly more damage than Eviscerate. If anything, it is miniscule. Maybe per energy it does more damage, but that is nothing new.Either way, Eviscerate has always been more appealing to use than Rupture in PvP because of the play style requirement of the Rogue class (unless you're mutilate of course).I don't understand why anyone would ever Hemo over Backstab when you're capable of Backstabbing. Backstab does more damage per energy than Hemo.There were calculations way back (world of ming days), comparing Eviscerate and Rupture, and the conclusion was Rupture did more damage per energy than Eviscerate. But regardless, Rogues still continued to use Eviscerate because of the play style requirement.If you have free time, I would greatly appreciate the calculations being done. I take interest in those kind of things. :)

From a pure damage point of view Hemo is actually way more than Backstab but the damage is split over a long period. It's very close to Ambush in terms of damage/energy. So keeping it up is certainly not bad, spamming Hemo however is.

#55 Udderly

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 02:14 PM

View PostDjashley, on 04 July 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

these are great changes for us - but they need to be passives not glyphs! as we have 3 mandatory glyphs atm, they should either make the cs and garrote glyphs passive on the spell, or the other way round with the new changes! but a step in the right direction!

View PostReirei, on 04 July 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

could be good changes, the issue is that they are all bound to glyphs.... we don't really have enough glyph slots tbh

glyph of blind is a must you can't get around it really unless you play with something that doesn't have dots

Keep seeing posts like this and wanted to just point out again that if Blizz wanted you to just have 3 glyphs that worked and never swap, they wouldn't have bothered with glyphs in the first place.  The point is to have choice (just like they are trying to do with talents).  I play ele and Moonkin - don't you think I'd like to always have cyclone/barkskin/moonbeast/fae silence/entangling roots and ghostwolf/hex/captotem/shamrage/healingstream all at the same time?  

One of the cool things they did with MoP was giving you the ability to prep talents/glyphs in the starting room based on your opponent.  Choosing hex or cap totem as a shaman, for example, is something I do based on who we are playing.  Will they train me?  How many de-hexes do they have?  Does my team already have a bunch of stuns so I'll be using cap totem less?  

I'm really trying to not be a dick about this, but complaining that you are getting some REALLY good glyphs to solve some class issues (which, by the way, there are other classes with almost no choices in glyphs) bums me out.  Be glad that they are trying to make some mid-expac solutions.

=)

#56 watduck

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 02:56 PM

View PostUdderly, on 04 July 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Keep seeing posts like this and wanted to just point out again that if Blizz wanted you to just have 3 glyphs that worked and never swap, they wouldn't have bothered with glyphs in the first place.  The point is to have choice (just like they are trying to do with talents).  I play ele and Moonkin - don't you think I'd like to always have cyclone/barkskin/moonbeast/fae silence/entangling roots and ghostwolf/hex/captotem/shamrage/healingstream all at the same time?  

One of the cool things they did with MoP was giving you the ability to prep talents/glyphs in the starting room based on your opponent.  Choosing hex or cap totem as a shaman, for example, is something I do based on who we are playing.  Will they train me?  How many de-hexes do they have?  Does my team already have a bunch of stuns so I'll be using cap totem less?  

I'm really trying to not be a dick about this, but complaining that you are getting some REALLY good glyphs to solve some class issues (which, by the way, there are other classes with almost no choices in glyphs) bums me out.  Be glad that they are trying to make some mid-expac solutions.

=)

Except rogues already have like 5 or 6 glyphs to swap around, 3 of which would be considered mandatory. I believe we use garrote, blind, cheapshot, feint, cloak, shadowwalk(maybe not lol)? When we don't need garrote vs. a melee cleave we might use cloak glyph.
Against a wizard cleave where we may not need blind glyph we could possibly use feint.

Now try adding in the sang and recup glyphs(assuming sub spec) as options. My team faces an MLS for example. Do these glyph options do anything? Can I fit them in and what glyphs do I give up? Should they be baseline - would them being baseline help rogue issues anyways?

I ask the last question because more healing and not having to rupture would be nice but some rogues said our survivability is okay and they don't have a problem with using rupture.

#57 sounds

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 03:49 PM

I really wish shadow walk and its glyph weren't in the game, the same with shroud, I can only speak for myself but I hated the whole stealth arms race through TBC and WOTLK (they got rid of the human & nelf racials and stealth+ detect+ talents so adding these with MOP was a step backwards).

e; As for the new glyphs, like Kermit said the ability to change talents/glyphs based on the comp you queue into is an amazing feature, perhaps the problem is there are TOO MANY attractive glyphs for rogues (some of which may be considered mandatory).

#58 Jaxington

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:19 PM

oh my gosh lol THX BLZRD :)
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#59 dionim

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:33 PM

giving you the chance to change talents/glyphs was a bad ideia and just made comps more important, fucking up balance even more.

when you see the enemy team you will always look for the perfect setup to counter him up. thats really fucking bad for wow and specially ladder play

#60 Reirei

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:34 PM

View PostUdderly, on 04 July 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

Keep seeing posts like this and wanted to just point out again that if Blizz wanted you to just have 3 glyphs that worked and never swap, they wouldn't have bothered with glyphs in the first place.  The point is to have choice (just like they are trying to do with talents).  I play ele and Moonkin - don't you think I'd like to always have cyclone/barkskin/moonbeast/fae silence/entangling roots and ghostwolf/hex/captotem/shamrage/healingstream all at the same time?  

One of the cool things they did with MoP was giving you the ability to prep talents/glyphs in the starting room based on your opponent.  Choosing hex or cap totem as a shaman, for example, is something I do based on who we are playing.  Will they train me?  How many de-hexes do they have?  Does my team already have a bunch of stuns so I'll be using cap totem less?  

I'm really trying to not be a dick about this, but complaining that you are getting some REALLY good glyphs to solve some class issues (which, by the way, there are other classes with almost no choices in glyphs) bums me out.  Be glad that they are trying to make some mid-expac solutions.

=)

well here the thing, we already switch glyphs and talents literary every match

if all this changes that rogues really need come in form of glyphs it just means they won't be really fixes as practically they won't be really available since you HAVE to have certain glyphs no matter what

i understand that blizz wants us to have choice, but i honestly don't want to have to choose between should i really really suck or really really suck, it is not a choice really :/

the real choice should is when the class overall in decent state compared to other classes regardless the build and glyphs allow you to change the flavor and adjust to your playstyle instead of offering to fix only one issue out of 100 or only another issue out of that same 100

to make my point clear, here is an example: imagine you lost both of your legs, now a doc has an offer for you, you can have left or right leg back but not both - amazing choice isn't it? still can't run really regardless what leg you choose

i should be glad? for what honestly? they had almost 1,5 years feedback before MoP came out, jk rogues were horse shit in s12, despite all feedback on 5.2 it still went live they way it was, we all knew rogues will get nerfed again really bad which happend, now we are stuck for the rest of the season to either never play again and sit at rating or hope someone will be kind enough to play with us

overall half of the expansion was a garbage for rogues players and we should be glad that they throw us little bone to bandaid fix issues they caused because they ignored feedback from literary every single rogue out there? really? how fking sad and pathetic it is, we pay as much money for this game as any other player playing other classes yet pet battles get more attention and better fixes than entire class

i understand that i may be QQing a lot, but i am just average rogue like many other, i am not Reckful and ppl won't kiss my ass just to play with me, i am sick and tired of begging ppl to do arena with me because, simply put, my main class sucks and people would rather play with anything but rogues

what is wrong with wanting to do arena with your favorite class ffs?
shut up pvp guy




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