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What do WW Monks need to be competitive? (there is a TLDR for lazy people)

monk ww windwalker competitive viable 3s 3v3 arena burst buff

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#21 Udderly

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 07:09 PM

View Posthid, on 04 July 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

Healing elixirs is already pretty good (and in case you missed it, it's getting buffed in 5.4: Healing Elixirs will no longer activate if the Monk is already at full health, and activate automatically when the Monk has less than 35% of their maximum health.)

But I agree that we have very few talent choices. Having some tiers being clearly the best in 95%+ of situations is fine as long as it isn't more than a few. What makes it worse is that our T90 talents are all pretty bad, xuen included (he would be quite a bit better if he didn't break cc, but even then he'd be kind of lackluster at 45 sec duration, maybe cut it to 20-25 sec duration and double his dmg or something).

It does seem like blizz is slowly chipping away at "fixing" the talents though. At least now ring of peace will have some situational uses vs some wizcleaves for example. Still kind of wish they removed it from silence/disarm DRs to make it slightly more attractive/less punishing to use since it procs 2 DRs atm.

The disarm portion of RoP is utterly worthless with weapon chains.  They sometimes don't even miss a global.

#22 Syncrow

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 07:43 PM

View Posthid, on 04 July 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

Healing elixirs is already pretty good (and in case you missed it, it's getting buffed in 5.4: Healing Elixirs will no longer activate if the Monk is already at full health, and activate automatically when the Monk has less than 35% of their maximum health.)
something).

does it work like second wind under 35% or how should i understand it, cause there is a inner cooldown for this passive talent, its a bit confusing, sry x)

#23 hid

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 02:04 AM

View PostSyncrow, on 04 July 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

does it work like second wind under 35% or how should i understand it, cause there is a inner cooldown for this passive talent, its a bit confusing, sry x)

It'll only proc at 35% if you have the buff up, which refreshes every 18 sec. If you drop below 35% while the buff isn't up, it won't proc (to my understanding.)

#24 Marshmellow

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 02:21 AM

View Posthid, on 05 July 2013 - 02:04 AM, said:

It'll only proc at 35% if you have the buff up, which refreshes every 18 sec. If you drop below 35% while the buff isn't up, it won't proc (to my understanding.)

yeah and the auto heal doesn't proc below 35%

#25 Syncrow

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 04:10 AM

the elixier not seems to be synergize with the +heal from TEB. You get the +heal but it doesn't count the for the upcoming elixier (tested it a few seconds ago). But maybe that would be to hard for heals.

#26 Marshmellow

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 04:42 AM

View PostSyncrow, on 05 July 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

the elixier not seems to be synergize with the +heal from TEB. You get the +heal but it doesn't count the for the upcoming elixier (tested it a few seconds ago). But maybe that would be to hard for heals.

On the ptr I can't get Healing Elixirs to heal me at all unless I hit the 35% mark, can't really test it accurately

#27 Neverever

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:24 AM

Paralysis really needs to either be on its own dr or put on the cyclone dr. Should also have a glyph to increase its duration and cd as well.

View PostDizzeeyo, on 16 July 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages

#28 hid

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:28 AM

View PostNeverever, on 05 July 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

Paralysis really needs to either be on its own dr or put on the cyclone dr. Should also have a glyph to increase its duration and cd as well.

This is pretty much the perfect solution. Makes us wanted in a LOT more comps. Put it on cyclone DR IMO, since both those spells are basically doing the same thing for a very similar class (high mobility + sustained pressure).

Basically either make it DR with cyclone or make the duration be 8 sec if from the back and 6 from the front. Both solutions solves the same problem in different ways (different pros/cons).

#29 Neverever

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:49 AM

Quote

Basically either make it DR with cyclone or make the duration be 8 sec if from the back and 6 from the front. Both solutions solves the same problem in different ways (different pros/cons).


Agree with either solution. I said the following slightly earlier just to expand on it:

Quote

I do think the biggest problem might be cc synergy and paralysis. I think a good solution would be to have a glyph which increases the duration to 6 secs regardless of positional requirement but also increases the cd to 20 secs. At the same time, I think paralysis should be removed from the poly dr and added to the cyclone dr resulting in it only dring with cyclone and nothing else. This would make a lot of sense as both are quite similar ccs and, after the feral cyclone nerf of 5.4, would allow monks to become a good alternative to ferals and fill their previous niche. To those who would say that instant clones were nerfed because they were op, monks don't have incarnation, unlimited mobility or heart of the wild healing and paralysis can be broken by damage whilst not preventing the target from being healed.

I think if they're willing to change frost mage mastery completely on ptr they might be willing to do something as impactful as changing paralysis' dr, (they also changed it from magic to physical before).

Only thing I feel is people might complain because you cant stop it with silences/purges idk.

Maybe tweet holinka :S

View PostDizzeeyo, on 16 July 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages

#30 Syncrow

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:03 PM

View PostMarshmellow, on 05 July 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

On the ptr I can't get Healing Elixirs to heal me at all unless I hit the 35% mark, can't really test it accurately

i tested it while be hitten by mobs and use tiger eye brew with different stacks, its all around 90k heal  from 1 stack to 10 stacks...it only benefit from the + heal if you have already TEB up and then getting the elixier buff and force another TEB buff to overbuff the old one... but thats not really cooldown wise..

#31 Udderly

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 02:23 PM

View Posthid, on 05 July 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

This is pretty much the perfect solution. Makes us wanted in a LOT more comps. Put it on cyclone DR IMO, since both those spells are basically doing the same thing for a very similar class (high mobility + sustained pressure).

Basically either make it DR with cyclone or make the duration be 8 sec if from the back and 6 from the front. Both solutions solves the same problem in different ways (different pros/cons).

I just can't understand why people want MORE instant, unavoidable cc in this game (I know it's not additional, but it is longer duration).  There is too much already =/

#32 Neverever

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 02:30 PM

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I just can't understand why people want MORE instant, unavoidable cc in this game

Because you need it to be competitive. It's a case of the lesser of two evils.

View PostDizzeeyo, on 16 July 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages

#33 Marshmellow

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 07:57 PM

View PostUdderly, on 05 July 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

I just can't understand why people want MORE instant, unavoidable cc in this game (I know it's not additional, but it is longer duration).  There is too much already =/

Agreed, even though WW could use a change like this, it would not be good for the game at all

#34 Marshmellow

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 10:06 PM

I think they should just give WW a toned down version of the Brewmaster stance

Current: Reduces damage taken by 25%, Increases Energy regen by 10%, Reduces chance to be critically hit by 6%, increases your stamina by 20% and allows you to stagger damage.

What WW could get: Reduces damage taken by 15%, Increases Energy regen by 10%, reduces chance to be critically hit by 6% and increases your stamina by 10%

take the stagger portion off of that and leave it as a BM mechanic only, especially since stagger breaks cc

and I think if they introduced this they should make Karma a 2 min cd.

Edited by Marshmellow, 05 July 2013 - 10:08 PM.


#35 amaixliu

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 04:13 AM

View PostNeverever, on 05 July 2013 - 02:30 PM, said:



Because you need it to be competitive. It's a case of the lesser of two evils.
yeah, and if we're considering the game as a whole and not just monks specifically, the lesser evil is leaving it how it is

i haven't played much monk so i'm not gonna pretend like i know what exactly WW needs, but if you're trying to say it's improved instant cc, that's gonna have to be a no. instant cc shouldn't be buffed at all for anyone right now regardless of how noncompetitive the class is

#36 Syncrow

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:25 AM

is it just me or is the dmg we do (5,4 PTR) a joke?! don't know whats wrong but after around 50 bgs on ptr it seems my dmg is tuned down compared to 5.3 live. Or scale the other melee classes much more with the new gear than monks?!

#37 Neverever

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:56 AM

Quote

yeah, and if we're considering the game as a whole and not just monks specifically, the lesser evil is leaving it how it is


I disagree. I feel the unhappiness of the players facing monks would be less overall than the happiness monks would get from these buffs, considering the changes being asked for. I don't feel like people would be that bothered by it since it would be such a small increase and monks aren't particularly amazing in other areas that these buffs would make them op.

Remember when blizzard removed blanket silence from mages (and locks) on ptr and then shortly put it back when people started complaining mages would never get kills without it. This is the same thing in the opposite direction.

Every class needs some form of decent instant cc to be competitive in this game atm, you just need to make sure the type and duration is balanced in proportion to all the other tools that class has. It's all about context.

Paralysis is a 4 sec cc on 15 sec cd and it would make monks a lot better by allowing them to reliably get a decent length cc chain off if it became 6 secs on a 20 sec cd, with the cd increase being relatively proportional to the duration of the cc from the previous values.

Similarly, putting paralysis on the cyclone dr does nothing other than increase monk synergy and allow us to play with more classes, a change they are already willing to make by putting the new turn evil in the repentance tier.

I feel the net improvement gained from these changes would benefit the game as a whole by allowing another class to become a worthy opponent and not a walking joke that you dismiss after the gates open in arena.

View PostDizzeeyo, on 16 July 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages





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