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What do WW Monks need to be competitive? (there is a TLDR for lazy people)

monk ww windwalker competitive viable 3s 3v3 arena burst buff

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#1 Neverever

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 11:34 AM

Firstly, would everyone else agree that monks are viable but not competitive?


Other than well known players using wws as their alts or a handful of people playing them at high ratings on terrible battlegroups, they don’t seem to be well represented at the top end of arena. Statistically, they are also at the bottom overall. You could say this is due to them being the new class a player has to level from lvl 1, however in this day and age when everyone has a little help from their friends to level up, I don’t think it’s a valid reason for their lack of representation.


So what might make them uncompetitive? I think it’s mostly the following headings to varying degrees, but I’d like to hear others’ opinions of what the reasons are:


No on demand burst – using your class’s 3 minute burst dps cd a few seconds after the gates open in arena is the hallmark of MoP so without something like this wws seem really lacking. However, there are other pressure classes like locks & dks who I would say are more competitive than monks, although their pressure is spread and they don’t have some of the other weaknesses of wws.


Damage reduction – like mages in a way, monks are meant to avoid damage rather than tank it. However unlike mages and other melees, ww monks have no active or passive damage avoidance/mitigation in stuns (flameglow, blink, blood presence, second wind & d stance, divine protection, sham rage, barkskin). They can recover with their bananas self healing after the stun but this is kind of pointless when you always die in one. I think rogues have the same problem but without the self healing to help.


Synergies – a lot of ppl feel monks don’t particularly synergise well with any other class, at least not to the extent that the other classes they usually play with do. Outside of 3s they are great but in 3v3 arena where team utility and real synergy is game breaking they just don’t seem to measure up. Additionally, a lot of their utility is provided by other classes except just in a better way (e.g. paralysis vs. cyclone).


Vulnerability to current overlord class – I know there isn’t any class that doesn’t suffer from all the hunters around in arena but, combined with their other weaknesses, wws are particularly vulnerable to hunters. Everyone knows hunter and feral mechanics counter mages hence their reduced presence in ladders and I would say that hunters are the one class wws have problems dealing with at a mechanical level. (This doesn’t seem as important as the other points though)


So what kind of solutions would be good? These are just some I’ve seen suggested. Would like to hear other opinions as well:
  • Xuen grants 10 - 20 stacks of tiger-eye (would probably screw up pve)
  • Access to ox stance with 10%/15% damage reduction or bake this into tiger stance
  • Paralysis is always 6 secs with 25 - 30 yd range, maybe increase cd to 20 secs
  • Dematerialize for ww monks with 30 – 60 sec cd – nimble brew removed
QoL changes:
  • Roll & FSK granting immunity to ccs during their duration – already challenging having to aim, roll jump to modify distance rolled, and being extremely vulnerable to latency when using these spells so this would be really nice
  • Spinning Fire blossom not using up chi until you successfully hit your target – its great having a skillshot ability but it might be too punishing atm, especially considering it used to be the way I’d want it changed to but was at some point secretly & unofficially nerfed to what it is now
Final thing to think about:
  • Should roll be cancellable like FSK or do people like the unofficial skill cap of roll jumping?
Enjoy!


(TLDR: no serious high rated monks on competitive bgs / Monks need: on demand burst, active or passive dmg reduction [esp. in stuns] / better synergies / not to be so weak against hunters, compared to other classes / so: buff Xuen, give ox stance, make paralysis more like cyclone, give longer cd dematerialize / random QoL stuff not interesting for non-monks)

View PostDizzeeyo, on 16 July 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages

#2 Udderly

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 01:37 PM

View PostNeverever, on 29 June 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

Firstly, would everyone else agree that monks are viable but not competitive?


Other than well known players using wws as their alts or a handful of people playing them at high ratings on terrible battlegroups, they don’t seem to be well represented at the top end of arena. Statistically, they are also at the bottom overall. You could say this is due to them being the new class a player has to level from lvl 1, however in this day and age when everyone has a little help from their friends to level up, I don’t think it’s a valid reason for their lack of representation.


So what might make them uncompetitive? I think it’s mostly the following headings to varying degrees, but I’d like to hear others’ opinions of what the reasons are:


No on demand burst – using your class’s 3 minute burst dps cd a few seconds after the gates open in arena is the hallmark of MoP so without something like this wws seem really lacking. However, there are other pressure classes like locks & dks who I would say are more competitive than monks, although their pressure is spread and they don’t have some of the other weaknesses of wws.


Damage reduction – like mages in a way, monks are meant to avoid damage rather than tank it. However unlike mages and other melees, ww monks have no active or passive damage avoidance/mitigation in stuns (flameglow, blink, blood presence, second wind & d stance, divine protection, sham rage, barkskin). They can recover with their bananas self healing after the stun but this is kind of pointless when you always die in one. I think rogues have the same problem but without the self healing to help.


Synergies – a lot of ppl feel monks don’t particularly synergise well with any other class, at least not to the extent that the other classes they usually play with do. Outside of 3s they are great but in 3v3 arena where team utility and real synergy is game breaking they just don’t seem to measure up. Additionally, a lot of their utility is provided by other classes except just in a better way (e.g. paralysis vs. cyclone).


Vulnerability to current overlord class – I know there isn’t any class that doesn’t suffer from all the hunters around in arena but, combined with their other weaknesses, wws are particularly vulnerable to hunters. Everyone knows hunter and feral mechanics counter mages hence their reduced presence in ladders and I would say that hunters are the one class wws have problems dealing with at a mechanical level. (This doesn’t seem as important as the other points though)


So what kind of solutions would be good? These are just some I’ve seen suggested. Would like to hear other opinions as well:
  • Xuen grants 10 - 20 stacks of tiger-eye (would probably screw up pve)
  • Access to ox stance with 10%/15% damage reduction or bake this into tiger stance
  • Paralysis is always 6 secs with 25 - 30 yd range, maybe increase cd to 20 secs
  • Dematerialize for ww monks with 30 – 60 sec cd – nimble brew removed
QoL changes:
  • Roll & FSK granting immunity to ccs during their duration – already challenging having to aim, roll jump to modify distance rolled, and being extremely vulnerable to latency when using these spells so this would be really nice
  • Spinning Fire blossom not using up chi until you successfully hit your target – its great having a skillshot ability but it might be too punishing atm, especially considering it used to be the way I’d want it changed to but was at some point secretly & unofficially nerfed to what it is now
Final thing to think about:
  • Should roll be cancellable like FSK or do people like the unofficial skill cap of roll jumping?
Enjoy!


(TLDR: no serious high rated monks on competitive bgs / Monks need: on demand burst, active or passive dmg reduction [esp. in stuns] / better synergies / not to be so weak against hunters, compared to other classes / so: buff Xuen, give ox stance, make paralysis more like cyclone, give longer cd dematerialize / random QoL stuff not interesting for non-monks)



Personally, i'm baffled that more people don't play monks.  I actually consider them to be the most fun class in the game, with lots of great tools.  I think that Venruki put it best when he said they have the highest ceiling: there is rarely a match that you end and say that you couldn't have done something better, because with such a huge toolset there is always something to improve.  

As far as changes, personally I think we really only have a couple weaknesses that matter: dying in stuns and lack of melee defensives.

Dying in stuns: I'm not a fan of homogenization as much as possible, so changing to a stance I would consider the last resort.  It would be much more fun if we had something unique (like much of our toolset) to deal with it, and they could do it by changing Dampen Harm (though I bet tanks in pve like it) since it's value is lower than the other two by quite a bit and only works in very specific narrow scenarios.  

Our defense against melee was definitely OP with RoP in it's old form, but now it feels SLIGHTLY weak.  Having a 1 min disarm, punches, and a talent in the RoP/ox/leg tier is great, but without any free glyph slots (death/karma/para are reqd and really tough to swap out).  Maybe giving us some ability to actually choose glyphs (bake in death/karma since there is zero chance of dropping them?) so that we have the ability to pick up glyphs like stoneskin vs ferals and fists of fury vs other melee (turning the ability into an even cooler utility to do things like predict a big hit coming from a warrior, etc and parry it into a stun).

I don't think the we need any more than those couple of things, para is already a great high skill cap ability there is no reason to change it and passive d's like dematerialize promote a low skill cap game IMO.

Good thoughts overall though, nice post.

#3 Tinh

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 05:52 PM

I doubt this is all needed, but these are mechanics changes I'd like to see.




1. Fists of fury:
a. Having the damage spread out aoe is bad, especially considering it's our burst skill. Please do what you did with killing spree and let us make the damage single target instead of aoe. (Aoe option can be via minor glyph, or if you have storm, earth and fire active.)

b. The first stun doesn't tick until like half a second after casting it. This makes it extremely difficult to land on a moving target you are unable to slow or root (ie - someone with hand of freedom, or a druid constantly shifting).

2. Spinning fire blossom: The need to aim this makes this very hard to use, especially on a target moving left or right at more than like 15 yards. Yes, you can glyph it to remove the need to aim it. But then it removes the best part about the skill - the two second ranged root as a gap closer. Please make this so it automatically finds the target without needing to aim it, and roots the target as well.

3. Disable: This skill is bugged. You never get an eight second root from it in PvP (despite that being on the tooltip). First root usage is four seconds, second is two seconds, then it's dr'd.

4. Touch of death:
a. To make this usable, it requires the PvP four set bonus AND a major glyph slot. And even then it's on a 3.5 minute cooldown. (Technically, the glyph isn't required, but realistically if you're using touch of death, you have someone at 10%, which means you're bursting, which means you're already likely tapped on energy and chi.) I feel it's too much paid for a small benefit.... but there's no other better major glyphs to take, really.

b. The 10% life threshold makes it hard to use effectively.

c. The 2 minute cooldown (or 3.5 minute glyphed) feels too long.

5. Healing sphere: Easy to use on me. Hard to use to heal a teammate. Might want to consider adding surging mists additionally to windwalkers. (Point isn't extra healing, point is better healing of teammates.)

6. Xuen:
a. Still breaks a ton of crowd control. A way to make him do single target aoe damage instead of aoe might be nice (if even just a minor glyph, or based on storm earth and fire).

b. Also has the damage distributed too uniformly over a long period of time - 45 seconds. Would significantly benefit from cutting the up time but increasing the damage or reducing the cooldown to compensate.

7. Zen meditation: This is too niche for a 3 minute cooldown. Among the mechanics issues:
a. This skill is very limited in its usefulness because, among other things, it stops when you're hit with any melee attack. It makes it very hard to use.

b. If the spell redirects crowd control spells or silences, your zen meditation is automatically interrupted. It group pvp, it usually ends almost instantly on the first spell or two redirected.

c. If the spell redirects crowd control spells, you suffer the full duration of the crowd control spell. Popping it a lot of the time feels only mildly productive because of that.

8. Talent choices: Too homogeneous. Everyone takes tiger's lust, chi wave, ascencion (although this might change next patch), and xuen. If there were more options, you'd be able to be better in a given comp. (For example, a mage choosing ice ward vs ring of frost vs frostjaw. Each is better in certain situations, so they get flexibility by having those options.)

9. Storm earth and fire. I feel like these things take full aoe damage, because they're always dead within 10 seconds of being cast. Also, they're slow, so if the target keeps moving at normal run speed, they can never hit the target.


#4 Covlol

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:44 PM

iunno man, i think monk is super fun. at this point thats all i care about.

Edited by Covlol, 29 June 2013 - 07:12 PM.

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#5 BalanceRexxar

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 10:22 PM

Something you might want to add to this post is Sparring. I'm not sure if you have experienced playing against another monk but it is extremely frustrating, I don't know if all melee have this problem with monks which I assume they do, or just monk v monk but I think Sparring should be a damage reduction buff instead of parry chance increasing, or just make it a passive damage buff. It would remove a lot of RNG from the monk class.

#6 Udderly

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 01:45 PM

View PostTinh, on 29 June 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

I doubt this is all needed, but these are mechanics changes I'd like to see.




1. Fists of fury:
a. Having the damage spread out aoe is bad, especially considering it's our burst skill. Please do what you did with killing spree and let us make the damage single target instead of aoe. (Aoe option can be via minor glyph, or if you have storm, earth and fire active.)

I disagree.  This adds skill to the talent.  Using it sometimes for an aoe stun and immediately stop channeling to do other abilities or having that chance to burst.  MAYBE it would be OK if pets weren't included in dmg count, but it's part of what the ability does - it's more like bladestorm than killing spree

b. The first stun doesn't tick until like half a second after casting it. This makes it extremely difficult to land on a moving target you are unable to slow or root (ie - someone with hand of freedom, or a druid constantly shifting).

2. Spinning fire blossom: The need to aim this makes this very hard to use, especially on a target moving left or right at more than like 15 yards. Yes, you can glyph it to remove the need to aim it. But then it removes the best part about the skill - the two second ranged root as a gap closer. Please make this so it automatically finds the target without needing to aim it, and roots the target as well.

3. Disable: This skill is bugged. You never get an eight second root from it in PvP (despite that being on the tooltip). First root usage is four seconds, second is two seconds, then it's dr'd.

4. Touch of death:
a. To make this usable, it requires the PvP four set bonus AND a major glyph slot. And even then it's on a 3.5 minute cooldown. (Technically, the glyph isn't required, but realistically if you're using touch of death, you have someone at 10%, which means you're bursting, which means you're already likely tapped on energy and chi.) I feel it's too much paid for a small benefit.... but there's no other better major glyphs to take, really.

b. The 10% life threshold makes it hard to use effectively.

c. The 2 minute cooldown (or 3.5 minute glyphed) feels too long.

You do realize you are talking about THE BEST finisher in the game right?  I can kill a dispersed priest with a single button - there is no reason to make an ability that is that powerful any easier to use or available more often.  If we waste it into a deterence (not that I've done that twice in the same match ever...cough, cough...) then we got outplayed, and that's that.  IMHO it doesn't need any changes, as it's already baller as hell.

5. Healing sphere: Easy to use on me. Hard to use to heal a teammate. Might want to consider adding surging mists additionally to windwalkers. (Point isn't extra healing, point is better healing of teammates.)

6. Xuen:
a. Still breaks a ton of crowd control. A way to make him do single target aoe damage instead of aoe might be nice (if even just a minor glyph, or based on storm earth and fire).

Yea he's super annoying.  I mostly just don't like that there are no alternatives in this tier for WW.

b. Also has the damage distributed too uniformly over a long period of time - 45 seconds. Would significantly benefit from cutting the up time but increasing the damage or reducing the cooldown to compensate.

7. Zen meditation: This is too niche for a 3 minute cooldown. Among the mechanics issues:
a. This skill is very limited in its usefulness because, among other things, it stops when you're hit with any melee attack. It makes it very hard to use.

b. If the spell redirects crowd control spells or silences, your zen meditation is automatically interrupted. It group pvp, it usually ends almost instantly on the first spell or two redirected.

c. If the spell redirects crowd control spells, you suffer the full duration of the crowd control spell. Popping it a lot of the time feels only mildly productive because of that.

Sorry to keep disagreeing, but I think you're missing how situationally powerful this ability is.  Healer is polyed and your other dps is getting chaosbolted/frost bombed/lava bursted/etc.  You pop zen med and completely negate a huge burst opp.  Against casters, that button is like your healer having a free get out of jail free card.  He no longer has to trinket and/or pop cds.  Sure it isn't as useful vs. melee (grounding traps is great tho) but we have great melee peels already with slow/root/disarm/ox/fists.  Personally, I think it's already pretty darn powerful and versatile.

8. Talent choices: Too homogeneous. Everyone takes tiger's lust, chi wave, ascencion (although this might change next patch), and xuen. If there were more options, you'd be able to be better in a given comp. (For example, a mage choosing ice ward vs ring of frost vs frostjaw. Each is better in certain
situations, so they get flexibility by having those options.)

This you are right on the money about.  I change one talent line - one.  I will occassionally swap my defensive tier talent.  VERY rarely I'll swap to leg sweep from ox if there is a melee cleave, but typically i prefer the range stun on a shorter cd.

9. Storm earth and fire. I feel like these things take full aoe damage, because they're always dead within 10 seconds of being cast. Also, they're slow, so if the target keeps moving at normal run speed, they can never hit the target.

edit: I suck at the internet, so my responses are actually INSIDE of the quote =p

Overall, I might just be biased because I agree with covlol - they are just the most fun class to play right now IMHO so I have less to complain about.  =)

#7 Dimyzuka

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:46 AM

3s has always been about CC DR synergy and monks CC hasn't been well thought out at all imo.

KFC = fear/trap seperate dr
thugcleave = blind/trap seperate dr
jungle = cyclone/trap seperate dr
godcomp = fear/poly seperate dr
rmp = blind/poly seperate dr
and then stupid comps like LSD/MLD/priest jungle cleave where they have 3 cc's on diff drs

Monks dont have a full duration CC and it is on the poly dr to make it worse. So we are competing with cc juggernauts, hunters, mages and burst juggernauts eles/enhance for the poly dr spot. If they made paralysis on its own DR or on the fear DR monks would have alot better synergy in 3s. They should also increase its CD and duration, to make it more like a traditional melee cc(blind/fear/hex etc), so monks can actually contribute to proper cc chains.

Also TEB is the worst pvp burst mechanic in the game, Xuen aoe breaks cc, AND puts aoe dots up incase you dare try land cc afterwards.

View PostNeverever, on 29 June 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

No on demand burst – using your class’s 3 minute burst dps cd a few seconds after the gates open in arena is the hallmark of MoP so without something like this wws seem really lacking. However, there are other pressure classes like locks & dks who I would say are more competitive than monks, although their pressure is spread and they don’t have some of the other weaknesses of wws.

Since they made DK gargoyle cost no RP they have hardly any ramp up time to burst now aswell, So the plate class with access to their tanking presence has more upfront burst than the leather squishy that can't use their tanking stance..

I still think monks are the most fun class in the game by far though.

#8 Marshmellow

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:10 AM

Monk is a lot better than most people think, WW really only needs a few minor changes to itself, the biggest change would be nerfs to other classes.

Changes that would be nice:

Zen Meditation not cancelling on melee damage, for a 3 minute cd its pretty stupid that it is cancelled by melee damage when it is an interruptable cast

Fist of fury: leave the spread damage on it, remove the constant stuns following the initial stuns and let us move while channeling it

Ascension baseline

I like Balance's idea of sparring being a Damage Reduction instead of a parry chance buff, mostly because I'm not a fan of rng and I know a lot of other people aren't

Lastly, a lot of pve'rs disagree but Dampen harm's damage threshold should be reduced to 10-15% and charges increased to 4-5, there aren't that many abilities that can hit you for 20%+ of your health which really makes Dampen Harm unattractive against most comps, and it has potential to be a very good defensive cd, especially because you can use it while stunned.

OP mentioned that WW lacks on demand burst which is not that accurate, sure WW can't blow cds right out of the gates but to be honest they don't need to, monks have great burst damage when it is built up and very decent sustained damage without TEB up, enough sustained that with the right opener with Xuen and cross CC you can build enough pressure to force a few minor CDs and get that first 10 stack to build momentum for the rest of the match, there have been pretty much the same amount matches that I've played in where my team won without me getting 10 stacks than matches where I have gotten to the first 10 stack of TEB.

OP also mentioned roll being cancellable like FSK which I think is a great idea, it lowers the skill cap just a little bit but I think that for a 20 second cooldown it should be cancellable.

basically just minor changes to add some utility, WW has really good potential especially once other certain classes get toned down

Edited by Marshmellow, 02 July 2013 - 03:11 AM.


#9 Udderly

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 12:35 PM

View PostMarshmellow, on 02 July 2013 - 03:10 AM, said:

Monk is a lot better than most people think, WW really only needs a few minor changes to itself, the biggest change would be nerfs to other classes.

Changes that would be nice:

Zen Meditation not cancelling on melee damage, for a 3 minute cd its pretty stupid that it is cancelled by melee damage when it is an interruptable cast

Fist of fury: leave the spread damage on it, remove the constant stuns following the initial stuns and let us move while channeling it

Ascension baseline

I like Balance's idea of sparring being a Damage Reduction instead of a parry chance buff, mostly because I'm not a fan of rng and I know a lot of other people aren't

Lastly, a lot of pve'rs disagree but Dampen harm's damage threshold should be reduced to 10-15% and charges increased to 4-5, there aren't that many abilities that can hit you for 20%+ of your health which really makes Dampen Harm unattractive against most comps, and it has potential to be a very good defensive cd, especially because you can use it while stunned.

OP mentioned that WW lacks on demand burst which is not that accurate, sure WW can't blow cds right out of the gates but to be honest they don't need to, monks have great burst damage when it is built up and very decent sustained damage without TEB up, enough sustained that with the right opener with Xuen and cross CC you can build enough pressure to force a few minor CDs and get that first 10 stack to build momentum for the rest of the match, there have been pretty much the same amount matches that I've played in where my team won without me getting 10 stacks than matches where I have gotten to the first 10 stack of TEB.

OP also mentioned roll being cancellable like FSK which I think is a great idea, it lowers the skill cap just a little bit but I think that for a 20 second cooldown it should be cancellable.

basically just minor changes to add some utility, WW has really good potential especially once other certain classes get toned down

I think the dampen harm point is big.  That tier is really bizarre because of how extremely situational dampen is vs the other two (I rarely, if ever, take it).

#10 Neverever

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 06:01 PM

Yes, I would agree that windwalker monks are very enjoyable to play. They have a nice rotation that doesn't punish target swapping and a toolkit that covers almost everything. However, although everything they can do is good, nothing is great and they don't really have a niche that isn't performed better by another class. So they are a jack-of-all-trades but master of none, which is I guess why a lot of people like them because you feel like you always have something to do in most situations and have the tools to take care of yourself where necessary.

But the thing is, other classes have not only better strengths but also weaknesses that can be offset by complimentary classes to make the combination greater than the sum of its parts. For example, there are certain casters such as spriests & boomkins that need peels since they can't effectively do this themselves. But when you pair them with a class that can peel for them, e.g. mage, they perform exponentially better.

What class makes a windwalker monk better when you play with them? I can't think of any.

(Btw, to everyone saying that monks are the most fun class right now, are you talking about 3s, or do you mean 2s (with disc, lol) and duels etc., because I don't see how 3s can really be that fun as monk atm.)




Some really interesting solutions posted above and I would suggest/concur with the following:
  • Firstly, I think touch of death & touch of karma glyphs should really be baseline along with the ascension talent and, at least in regards to other glyphs wws might choose to replace them with, the choices are not really so overpowering to make a huge difference but would definitely be helpful e.g. stoneskin.
  • Zen meditation should definitely only be stopped by an interrupt.
  • As for the dying in stuns problem, at this point every melee, bar rogues, has either a defensive stance or barkskin like ability, and it's not a coincidence that rogues are the worst melee at the moment (not completely due to this, but at least partly). No reason why monks shouldn't have something similar.

Quote

OP mentioned that WW lacks on demand burst which is not that accurate
  • I would have to disagree with this. I just feel that in the current meta game, not being able to use large offensive cds near to the start of the match is a huge disadvantage. Yes monks have good sustained damage but it is all single target and the best  pressure classes have multi target damage. You say that you have won as many matches without 10 stacks as you have with but I have noticed that you are playing with a hunter. Could you fairly say that it was your contribution rather than the opness of hunter dmg & burst that secured the kills in these instances?

Quote

Monks dont have a full duration CC and it is on the poly dr to make it worse.
  • I do think the biggest problem might be cc synergy and paralysis. I think a good solution would be to have a glyph which increases the duration to 6 secs regardless of positional requirement but also increases the cd to 20 secs. At the same time, I think paralysis should be removed from the poly dr and added to the cyclone dr resulting in it only dring with cyclone and nothing else. This would make a lot of sense as both are quite similar ccs and, after the feral cyclone nerf of 5.4, would allow monks to become a good alternative to ferals and fill their previous niche. To those who would say that instant clones were nerfed because they were op, monks don't have incarnation, unlimited mobility or heart of the wild healing and paralysis can be broken by damage whilst not preventing the target from being healed.

Quote

WW has really good potential especially once other certain classes get toned down  
  • I think you should go on PTR and see what they are doing to ferals and rets :S Other classes are not getting toned down, although maybe too early to tell

Quote

OP also mentioned roll being cancellable like FSK which I think is a great idea
  • What do you think about spinning fire blossom as I feel that it's in the same boat as roll. Do you think it should be changed as well in some way, since it's bad enough having melee abilities hurt by lag and we don't need such a useful ranged one affected so much by it as well?

View PostDizzeeyo, on 16 July 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:

id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages

#11 Udderly

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:38 PM

I only time to comment on part of your post, but just wanted to say that yes, I have tons of fun in 3s.  I feel like I have a ton of utility, I am highly mobile, I do plenty of damage, and I can burst whenever I want to - we have that frost mage like ability to burst someone every time we want to by popping a handful of stacks of brew (with on use if its avail) and hitting RSK (i crit 130k regularly and I'm still not fully geared).

I normally don't enjoy melee and windwalker has brought that out for me.

#12 Marshmellow

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 11:00 PM

I agree that WW is at a slight disadvantage because we don't have that "swifty" at the beginning of every match but I don't think it makes us unviable.

I feel that Paralysis is better compared to a ranged 'Gouge' since cyclone doesn't break on damage and can't be broken by immunity abilities.

Also the ptr is nowhere near going live, we shouldn't jump to conclusions about what is going to be strong and what won't be based on the current PTR state, for all we know they could undo the feral nerfs and buff them.

I suggested a change to Spinning Fire Blossom, I think it would be nice if they added in a major glyph for spinning fire blossom that makes it dispel one beneficial buff from the target it hits, this would also make the minor glyph worth taking. And for this to work properly they would have to make Tok and ToD glyphs baseline which I also agree with.

Also, I've played 3's with every dps spec in the game and In my opinion it is the same situation in every comp, we depend on our partner's opening burst damage and cross cc to build pressure until we get that initial 10 stack, which is fine seeing as the classes we are most viable with have the ability to make up for our missing burst in the first 30-40 seconds of a match.

And when I say WW monk is the most fun class I've played I am talking about everything Duels/2v2/3v3/5v5/bgs/world pvp and PVE

Edited by Marshmellow, 02 July 2013 - 11:01 PM.


#13 Syia

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 01:27 AM

Paralysis DR is the biggest issue. You need a good CC chain to kill something, but paralysis drs with poly/hex/trap. It basically forces you to play with a target that has fear (which is tremor'd/trinket/wotf'd like crazy).

#14 Tinh

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 01:40 PM

View PostUdderly, on 02 July 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

I only time to comment on part of your post, but just wanted to say that yes, I have tons of fun in 3s.  I feel like I have a ton of utility, I am highly mobile, I do plenty of damage, and I can burst whenever I want to - we have that frost mage like ability to burst someone every time we want to by popping a handful of stacks of brew (with on use if its avail) and hitting RSK (i crit 130k regularly and I'm still not fully geared).

I normally don't enjoy melee and windwalker has brought that out for me.

This. Don't normally enjoy melee, but windwalker is a lot of fun. And no, I'm not sure why.

#15 Syncrow

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 03:03 AM

Here are some changes that i would like to see for ww monks!
  • Paralysis: 6 sec duration // 20-25sec CD (maybe another DR: Cyclone, Scatter or itself)
  • Dampen Harm: Can be cast while stunned. Duration 10sec. Cooldown 60sec. Whenever you receive dmg the incoming dmg is reduced by 15% for the next 5 sec. If an Attack would deal dmg equal to 20% or more to you, instead the dmg is prevented and Dampen Harm breaks.
  • Glyphe - Touch of Death will be removed.
  • Touch of Death cost no more Chi, its CD is increased to 3min. (passiv for WW monks)
  • Sparring: When you are attacked by a melee enemy, you begin to spar their attacks, reducing physical dmg and bleeding effects by 4% for 10 sec. This effect has a 30 sec cooldown. When you attack them back, Sparring is amplified by an additional 4%. Stacks up to 3 times.


#16 Marshmellow

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:01 AM

View PostSyncrow, on 04 July 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

Here are some changes that i would like to see for ww monks!
  • Paralysis: 6 sec duration // 20-25sec CD (maybe another DR: Cyclone, Scatter or itself)
  • Dampen Harm: Can be cast while stunned. Duration 10sec. Cooldown 60sec. Whenever you receive dmg the incoming dmg is reduced by 15% for the next 5 sec. If an Attack would deal dmg equal to 20% or more to you, instead the dmg is prevented and Dampen Harm breaks.
  • Glyphe - Touch of Death will be removed.
  • Touch of Death cost no more Chi, its CD is increased to 3min. (passiv for WW monks)
  • Sparring: When you are attacked by a melee enemy, you begin to spar their attacks, reducing physical dmg and bleeding effects by 4% for 10 sec. This effect has a 30 sec cooldown. When you attack them back, Sparring is amplified by an additional 4%. Stacks up to 3 times.

I like all these ideas

but paralysis in its current state is pretty good if you swap it between targets on cd

#17 Udderly

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:07 AM

View PostMarshmellow, on 04 July 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

I like all these ideas

but paralysis in its current state is pretty good if you swap it between targets on cd

I don't know why people have an issue with para - i just use it after DR ends on my same target and combined with either partners cc or ox stun, it's a decent mini chain for a healer I'm not on.

#18 Syncrow

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 05:25 AM

View PostMarshmellow, on 04 July 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

but paralysis in its current state is pretty good if you swap it between targets on cd

But playing like this will not allow you to play with mages or hunters very well.
I know what you mean, but Paralysis should be more tactical than spamming it on cd, or?

View PostUdderly, on 04 July 2013 - 04:07 AM, said:

I don't know why people have an issue with para - i just use it after DR ends on my same target and combined with either partners cc or ox stun, it's a decent mini chain for a healer I'm not on.

Imo, paralysis feels a bit too short towards the other Disorient-DR-Types (Trap, Repentence, Hex, Poly, Sap, ...) which usually lasts for 8 sec.
Would paralysis be on another DR-Type, than the comp-weight for monks would expand even if it lasts only 4 second.

Other things that might be possible to change are the unspoken talents, cause it feels like monks have no real talent choices... there is a best in slot talent except Tier 5 for DH vs DM
  • Make Healing Elixiers / Zen Sphere / Chi Burst / Power Strikes / Rushing Jade Wind more attractive for WW monks


#19 Udderly

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 02:28 PM

View PostSyncrow, on 04 July 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

But playing like this will not allow you to play with mages or hunters very well.
I know what you mean, but Paralysis should be more tactical than spamming it on cd, or?



Imo, paralysis feels a bit too short towards the other Disorient-DR-Types (Trap, Repentence, Hex, Poly, Sap, ...) which usually lasts for 8 sec.
Would paralysis be on another DR-Type, than the comp-weight for monks would expand even if it lasts only 4 second.

Other things that might be possible to change are the unspoken talents, cause it feels like monks have no real talent choices... there is a best in slot talent except Tier 5 for DH vs DM
  • Make Healing Elixiers / Zen Sphere / Chi Burst / Power Strikes / Rushing Jade Wind more attractive for WW monks

I don't find Healing Elixers useless at all - I actually use it against physical classes often.

#20 hid

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:48 PM

Healing elixirs is already pretty good (and in case you missed it, it's getting buffed in 5.4: Healing Elixirs will no longer activate if the Monk is already at full health, and activate automatically when the Monk has less than 35% of their maximum health.)

But I agree that we have very few talent choices. Having some tiers being clearly the best in 95%+ of situations is fine as long as it isn't more than a few. What makes it worse is that our T90 talents are all pretty bad, xuen included (he would be quite a bit better if he didn't break cc, but even then he'd be kind of lackluster at 45 sec duration, maybe cut it to 20-25 sec duration and double his dmg or something).

It does seem like blizz is slowly chipping away at "fixing" the talents though. At least now ring of peace will have some situational uses vs some wizcleaves for example. Still kind of wish they removed it from silence/disarm DRs to make it slightly more attractive/less punishing to use since it procs 2 DRs atm.

Edited by hid, 04 July 2013 - 04:49 PM.






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