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PVP Trinket VS PvE Trinket in 5.4


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#1 Shirosaki

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 08:29 AM

So, I decided see if in 5.4 even with the new buff to wearing two PvP trinkets would make it better than using a PvE trinket, if you don't want to read stats the short version is that a PVE trinket will completely destroy and both the on-use and proc trinket!

Here's some math to help:
My Tyrannical On-Use agility trinket gives me almost 3k agility, which makes my weapon damage go from 12k to 13k a tiny bit more than 1k more damage on my weapons.

The Grievous On-Use agility trinket gives 3,670, more than half way to 4k agility, if we were to say that 1k agility gives 300 more weapon damage which I just tested by taking off my boots that give me 1,020 agility, which I know is more due to the 35% from leather spec and choosing sub.

So than 3670 would bring my weapon damage from 12k to around 13.6k or so.

5.4 Raid - Normal - Siege of Orgrimmar - Boss X Loot X - Agi DPS Trinket (4) Has 21,380 agility, even if it was nerfed to half like they have done in the past and doubled the duration that would be around 10,600 agility, resulting in a boost in damage from 12k to 15k. That's HUGE in PvP when my ambush does 470% weapon damage plus 3k. That would result with an initial ambush of 73,500 with the trinket proc, that's BEFORE find weakness! If I used the Grievous Trinket I would get 64,100. And this is before mastery vs. PVP power.

Now onto the mastery vs. PVP power!   The PvP trinket right now has 2k PvP power. That results in 4.83% more PvP power. Now if I were to take the PVE trinket I would get 2k Mastery, which is 3.27 points of mastery. Right now I have 8k Mastery, which is 64% on my finishers, with 40% of that coming from my gear and not the baseline mastery. So if 8k=40% 2k=10% more mastery, which would put me at 74% mastery!

Right now with 54% mastery after taking off almost 2k mastery brings me to 54% making my eviscerate hit for 47,650. With that 10% more it goes to 60,150. That seems like a lot more damage than 4.83% even though it is just on finishers.

So in a highly unrealistic situation, where the trinket is NOT nerfed in PvP this is how hard my ambush would hit for, with the proc up, rupture up, shadow blades, prey on the weak 10% more damage mastery of subtlety, and find weakness, taking into account the 50% version, Resil WILL be calculated after. Note this is on a warrior that has 50k armor, bringing it down to 25k which would be a 26% damage reduction.

Ambush with all CD's:
The proc gives about 6300 weapon damage, giving me 18400 weapon damage.

89,480 ambush damage with just the proc up

10% of that is 8,948 so with Mastery of Subtlety and Prey on the Weak that would bring it to 107,376

Having Rupture up would than add 17,896, coming from the original damage of 89480. Adding up to 125,272 Damage! Now for PvP power, which at the moment with no PvP DPS trinket and straight up full Tyrannical gear I have 30% PvP power. Bringing that to 162,853!

Now for the reductions. First armor: 120,511 than with 65% Resil: 42,179 NON crit! That's more than I'm doing on an lvl 90 target dummy with a 41k Ambush with Rupture, Find Weakness, and Mastery of Subtlety up!

For eviscerate with just the proc up would hit for 143,000 before Resil and armor and all the buffs up.

Now all of these calculations were done wearing full Tyrannical, which means that the damage would be even higher with 5.4 hits and the new gear comes out!
Also I would like to note that this is also self-buffed, meaning I don't have any mastery buff, crit buff, kings or might. And is also taken into mind that your first attack would be Garrote to set up the buff and Find Weakness and have the SV buff up, than to Ambush right after so that you have the full 21k agility on your Ambush

#2 WildeHilde

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:13 AM

The ilvl of PvE gear will be scaled down to 512. Means the effect should be smaller than the PvP version. For pure damage PvE trinkets will obviously be better but giving up on 10% damage reduction is a lot. The best will probably be to have both and switch depending on the enemy comp.

#3 Shirosaki

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:27 AM

View PostWildeHilde, on 28 June 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

The ilvl of PvE gear will be scaled down to 512. Means the effect should be smaller than the PvP version. For pure damage PvE trinkets will obviously be better but giving up on 10% damage reduction is a lot. The best will probably be to have both and switch depending on the enemy comp.

I agree, but currently everything is being scaled to 512, meaning that the PvP On-Use would be reduced as well, and the amount of mastery on the trinket already outweighs the PvP power from the PvP Trinket.

Also here's the math on having a pvp trinket set bonus or not with 65% baseline resil, which it is not additive with.
31500 With the trinket set bonus
25000 If the trinket set bonus was additive
35000 without the set bonus
Note that was with a 100k attack ignoring armor.

#4 WildeHilde

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:39 AM

PvP conquest gear will be ilvl522 and isn't scaled down like PvE gear.

#5 Shirosaki

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:45 AM

Posted Image

Nope, PvP gear is scaled to 512 as well.

#6 WildeHilde

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 09:48 AM

Holinka twittered about it, so it's just not implemented on the PTR, yet.

#7 Shirosaki

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:00 AM

Yep just saw, even if it was 512, I still think that it would insanely good, on par or better than the proc/on-use. Would have to be around 4k agi to even beat the PvP trinkets though, so it could either be very good or absolutely horrible due to the buff being diminished after every hit.

#8 limek

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:07 AM

View PostShirosaki, on 28 June 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

Yep just saw, even if it was 512, I still think that it would insanely good, on par or better than the proc/on-use. Would have to be around 4k agi to even beat the PvP trinkets though, so it could either be very good or absolutely horrible due to the buff being diminished after every hit.
I can't belive that you're saying what you're saying.

#9 Dcasterix

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 02:40 PM

.... I'm at a loss for words. You're telling me that blizzard implemented the gear scaling for PVE gear in PVP instances correct? So the amount of damage coming from full PVE geared players would be lowered by some fashion....

Why in the world would the need to do the same to the PVP gear in PVP instances? Am I missing something?

#10 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 03:02 PM

View PostDcasterix, on 06 August 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

.... I'm at a loss for words. You're telling me that blizzard implemented the gear scaling for PVE gear in PVP instances correct? So the amount of damage coming from full PVE geared players would be lowered by some fashion....

Why in the world would the need to do the same to the PVP gear in PVP instances? Am I missing something?
Missing the post in this thread that explains how it's not implemented properly yet, for a start

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#11 Dcasterix

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:47 PM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 06 August 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Missing the post in this thread that explains how it's not implemented properly yet, for a start

I apologize. It was an early morning post and I was a bit cranky when skimming.

Are you stating that it will not go live? If so then my point is mute entirely. :duckers:

#12 Evilcow

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 07:13 PM

View PostDcasterix, on 06 August 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

I apologize. It was an early morning post and I was a bit cranky when skimming.

Are you stating that it will not go live? If so then my point is mute entirely. :duckers:

PvE gear will be downscaled inside pvp zones, PvP gear won't.

#13 Selicia

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 07:48 PM

Holinka: "The cap will start at 496 when the patch releases and increase 1 ilevel per week until it hits 512."

At the start of S14, if you somehow get a SoO trinket really fast, it will be < 500 ilvl. Meanwhile, everyone will have two S14 Honor PvP trinkets equipped with the 10% reduction. Early/Mid season, the PvP trinkets will win out. Late season, I agree with Hildegard to have both and change them depending on the matchup.
Posted Image
       Just say no.

#14 Reirei

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:05 AM

... or they could just disable pve gear in competitive pvp completely instead of implementing such fucked up changes every week
shut up pvp guy

#15 Oliaxz

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 04:13 AM

Imo for rogue its :

PvE trinket with weird op proc (ex: extra attack for 50k shadow damage) > PvE trinket with our best stat as passive and a 15s+ duration proc on a 45s or less inner cooldown > PvP proc > PvP use > Any other PvE trinkets

PvP on-use would come in 2nd if they would go back to 2 mins CD with something close to triple the amount of agility that it currently gives just like it was back in Cata/wotlk.

Edited by Oliaxz, 26 August 2013 - 04:51 AM.


#16 Toxile

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 05:26 AM

I just dont get why they dont just disable pve gear in pvp instead of making everything so complicated.

#17 Braindance

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 05:52 AM

View PostToxile, on 26 August 2013 - 05:26 AM, said:

I just dont get why they dont just disable pve gear in pvp instead of making everything so complicated.
Because disabling all pve gear is far more complicated.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#18 WildeHilde

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:14 AM

PvE trinkets had their procs halved in PvP. Means they are not only weaker regarding ilvl, they also have a weaker proc. The only trinket I could think of to be viable is the cooldown reduction one. Other than that race-changing away from human and double PvP trinket (proc / medallion) plus Engineering and maybe Tailoring is the way to go. The legendary cloak might be one of the PvE pieces that are on the same level as the PvP gear over slightly better but it's far from needed.

For casters the legendary meta gem with the old hardmode raiding helmet is really good however. For rogues the legendary meta gem is not all that viable for PvP in my opinion.

#19 Mirionx

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 11:01 AM

View PostReirei, on 07 August 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

... or they could just disable pve gear in competitive pvp completely instead of implementing such fucked up changes every week

Because blizzard wants more players in arenas which you should want too and disabling gear in arenas would mean pve'rs can't even cap in arenas to get gear

Edited by Mirionx, 26 August 2013 - 11:02 AM.


#20 Oliaxz

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 09:53 PM

View PostWildeHilde, on 26 August 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

PvE trinkets had their procs halved in PvP. Means they are not only weaker regarding ilvl, they also have a weaker proc. The only trinket I could think of to be viable is the cooldown reduction one. Other than that race-changing away from human and double PvP trinket (proc / medallion) plus Engineering and maybe Tailoring is the way to go. The legendary cloak might be one of the PvE pieces that are on the same level as the PvP gear over slightly better but it's far from needed.

For casters the legendary meta gem with the old hardmode raiding helmet is really good however. For rogues the legendary meta gem is not all that viable for PvP in my opinion.

i believe crit will be the way to go next patch for sub, so since we lost the free 60% crit on ambush and 30% crit on backstab from the old cata talents, Id say crit could become more valuable than pvp power since backstab/ambush should once again be our main source of burst damage and it also means more combo pts from HaT and so easier time keeping up snd, recup and rupture(rupture crit tick also proc HaT so its still worth doing even if u got the hemo glyph and your target isnt plate). So imo the crit pvp trinket/battlemaster could more valuable than the agility on-use and maybe even the proc trinket if you look at it from an utility point of view and more reliable burst instead of just raw damage on some pve spreadsheet.

dear god i hope legendary meta gem is not gonna be a thing

Edited by Oliaxz, 26 August 2013 - 10:12 PM.





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