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What Do rshammys need to be Competitive.

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#21 Flabbert

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 09:36 AM

Wat about making bulwark totem baseline? Tho i think healing is fine atm.
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#22 Toiletbreath

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 11:54 PM

I don't think it's a healing output issue. Resto shamans just have literally no defensive cooldown to activate when being trained by melee/hunter cleaves, making them more or less a free and easy kill without some serious babysitting from their hybrid teammates.

Also, having to hard-cast almost all of your big meaningful heals is a death sentence in today's arena environment.
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#23 Tsx

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:31 AM

Rshams arent that competitie because they dont fit with any hunter comps.
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#24 brbweed

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 08:49 AM

Imagine situation like this, your team chaces say a mage behind pillar vs for example godcomp. Your trinket is down.
You´ll have to run through open space to assist. I´m assuming now this is not a terribad godcomp and they deep you
at same time or just before your team mates get feared.
U get swap onto with full deep +silence.

As a shaman you got 1 button to press during that lockout. ONE!! That´s not even a shaman ability, it´s your BM trinket.
Rest of the time you´ll sit there fingers crossed hoping for a miracle.

Cba listing all the abilities other healers have but y, what they share in common is that they can survive 1 or more of these swaps
on their own during arena matches, and not only surviving initial burst but also have means to escape the situation and take distance.

Solutions:

1. Make totems usable while silenced. This means that if it´s just a blanket silence totems work, if you took a nature lock which actually took some skill to land you pay the price and do the time. Only fair imo.

2. Shamanistic rage baseline for all specs. All other healers have oh shit buttons, why not shamans?

3. Undispellable ES or dispellable 1 charge at a time. Buff riptide initial healing.

4. Spiritwalker´s grace usable to break silence effects.
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#25 Myci

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 09:43 AM

I'm very skeptical about the talk of shamans being bad. I should disclaim however that I am a rDruid and my opinion will be biased as such. Nonetheless, I would like someone to point to the bad that is afflicting rShamans.

As mentioned in this thread, people claim that shamans are too easily trained by ferals and eventually get torn apart. My only retort is that feral druids also happen to be quite strong versus resto druids, and I don't find that a reason to believe that resto druids are bad.

Just because a class/spec has some natural counters doesn't mean the class is rendered useless in EVERY situation.

I think we should remember that rShamans have one of the BEST defensive mechanics in the game. (one that they don't even have to activate)



Is it their healing throughput that makes shamans bad?
Is it their lack of CC's?

If someone could give me exact reasons as to why resto shamans are BAD, I would be humbled by your discussions.

Maybe saying they are bad isnt fair, their just isnt a good place for them in arenas right now imo.
I feel like thier output is good, and they have some great tools, but have some specific flaws for how things are atm. To touch on some things other people have said:

---We have to hard cast any decent heals( outside of big CDs). While dealing with all the little garbage ccs and interrupts ( silence shot, scatter even without trap, doubple grip, war charge, typhoon, disorient ect) . Druids can have hots rolling, and priest shields, in between getting casts off. We have healing stream, earthshield, and riptide. Honestly earthshield gets mindlessly spam purged half the time anyways, and isnt very helpfull when i sit a cc chain. Then we also have to spend another global putting that up, or do 20% less healing. Literally 20% of our next heal is just getting spam purged away.

I dont think this would be a problem by itself with the output we have, except when we have to heal ourself. literally without any cds backing it a team can get alot of pressure by swapping to a shaman with a full stun>silence. without popping anything, catching me without earthshield or w/e they can dip me to 20-30% ( melees, not even talking about a deep). Now i have to hard cast in their face dealing with juking and all the bulshit hiccups on hardcasts. With cds i had better hope i have trinket, a hybrid saving my ass, and possibly gate, or im jsut going to flop.

If earthshield had charges to dispel it wouldnt be gone in the first global, and there would be some damage mitigated. And honestly what would be so OP about being able to use totems in silences( not locks)? I mean dropping healing stream during a blanket isnt going to keep my whole team alive. It would be like i have rejuz on myself for the silence. If they actually commit to a kill with a 3 minute cd, and i use healing tide ( a 3 minute cd) during the blanket part of the cc chain then isnt that a fair trade? especially when they can 1 shot it
--honestly i could see this being very strong with link aswell

Priests and druids both have sooo many cds to deal with these things. Things they can do in a stun/ silence and before, and better heals for this situation aswell. Bear, short cd auramastery, displacer, spectral guise, 2 skins, pain sup, instant heals and bubbles ect. Even monks can bubble people while stunned, and have demeterialize and monster instant orbs. Personally i dont even think its a matter of these 2 being op ( minus shells). The way dmg is right now, and considering gear will be going up to 522, healing should not be toned down. There are games where i will actually have to swap/ sup/ right after getting full shells out in the first 20 seconds because ele/ enhance ret/ hunter burst is so insane, and there is really no way to avoid it without gate.
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#26 TteSPORTSDoomsen

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:08 AM

Lets put the fact on the table, that Rshamans have been the overlords for the last 2 years? And now you are asking for buffs, since you lost the spot of the most dominant healer. Every class/specc in PvP has its downtimes, why shouldn't Shaman be not the best healer for a while? On European servers you still see high representation auf Resto Shamans in Arena, probably more than you see Druids, which would put him on the second place.

The ideas I have read here of bringing Shamanistic Rage and so on to a baseline for all 3 speccs is prolly the most absurd idea I have heard in quite a while regardiing how to "balance" a spec that ain't even bad. Most of you ain't asking for balance changes, more likely changes to decrease the skill cap even more.

Damage output is the problem and once that is done you can also ask for nerfs on other healers, for example: priest shields/ironbark.

Edited by TteSPORTSDoomsen, 30 June 2013 - 10:09 AM.

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#27 Myci

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:17 AM

Lets put the fact ont he table, that Rshamans have been the overlords for the last 2 years? And now you are asking for buffs, since you lost the spot of the most dominant healer? Every class/specc in PvP has its downtimes, why shouldn't Shaman be not the best healer for a while? On European servers you still see high representation auf Resto Shamans in Arena, probably more than you see Druids, which would put him on the second place.

The ideas I have read here of bringing Shamanistic Rage and so on to a baseline for all 3 speccs is prolly the most absurd idea I have heard in quite a while regardiing how to "balance" a spec that ain't even bad. Most of you ain't asking for balance changes, more likely changes to decrease the skill cap even more.

Damage output is the problem and once that is done you can also ask for nerfs on other healers, for example: priest shields/ironbark.

Do you really think having the mentality of " You were good for sooo long, its your turn to suck " is the best way balance should be handled? This whole ping pong idea of balance where these 2 specs are gods this patch, and garbage the next has realllly been making this expansion tons of fun right?
Instead of just expecting them to tone down all the absurd dmg next season ( because they always do LOL) and tone down other healers, im actually looking at the patch notes. Ferals dmg , combat rogues, eles, rets, enhance will all still be there, and the other healers are getting buffed. So instead expecting them to tone everything down to be brought in line with rshamans, im hoping for some logical suggestions to bring them inline with what everything will realisticly be like next patch based on the ptr and patch notes. Not a fantasy of the most ideal balanced arena that they should change it to, but wont and arent.
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#28 GrandalMurmillo

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:34 AM

Allow us to cast totems while silenced again.

and maybe a slight damage reduction.

using totems while silenced was a shaman niché, similar to druids shifting roots.
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#29 TteSPORTSDoomsen

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:35 AM

Do you really think having the mentality of " You were good for sooo long, its your turn to suck " is the best way balance should be handled?


I'm not quite sure what you consider as "suck". I can tell you what really sucked: Playing Resto Druid in Cataclysm and not being able to outheal a single DPS and dying in treeform, that is my defination of "suck". RShamans are far from being uncompeititive, that's why the whole name of the topic is complete rubbish already. Resto Shamans are fine, the only healer that pulls out way head is disc priest but that is because of the shield mechanic which also counters elemental shamans burst.
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#30 Mirionx

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:35 AM

Lets put the fact on the table, that Rshamans have been the overlords for the last 2 years? And now you are asking for buffs, since you lost the spot of the most dominant healer.


You got the best mindset ever, "you were OP for awhile you should be bad now so other healers can be OP" how can you even reason like that
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#31 GrandalMurmillo

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:36 AM

allow us to cast totems while silenced again.

and perhabs a small damage reduction to physical. 10% perhabs.

using totems while silenced was a shaman Niché similar to druids shifting roots.


a Totem is a PHYSICAL piece of wood, with pre casted magic on it.

it makes no sense to not be able to do that while silenced.

Edited by Mbgz, 30 June 2013 - 10:38 AM.

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#32 Chazzwozzer

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:57 AM

As others have already pointed out, the most obvious change that shamans need is an ability to press while stunned/silenced. I've been mostly playing dps specs this season, and it's laughable how effective it is to train resto shamans in order to win the game. Basically all the top resto shaman comps require a hybrid off healer (feral/spriest/ret/boomkin) to assist the shaman when he inevitably gets swapped to in a match.

However, I disagree with having shamanistic rage baseline for all three specs. A 1 minute cooldown of 30% damage reduction seems like it would be available too often, and being able to glyph it to remove deeps/hoj's/etc would just be too good.

I think that allowing totems to be used while silenced (but not when locked out) would be a reasonable fix that would solve the problem, but I also feel like Blizzard will not revert this change.

A suggestion I like is to make Astral Shift a restoration only spell, make it castable on party members, and make it usable while stunned instead of silenced (and of course replace that tier talent with something new). Essentially, make it similar to pain suppression. I know that homogenization is generally frowned upon, but I think this would be the best change. At a two minute cooldown, it would be something that you have to think about using (as opposed to a short cd dmg reduction like ironbark), and making it castable on teammates would result in a decision making process on whether to use it for yourself or for your teammates. This change would also benefit restoration shamans in pve, where they are severely lacking in viability and basically have zero tank cooldowns.

As an aside, I think totemic restoration should not exist, and it needs to be reviewed assuming that they give shamans help elsewhere. Reducing tremor and grounding totem cooldowns by such a considerable amount is certainly not balanced and should be changed.

Edited by Chazzwozzer, 30 June 2013 - 11:04 AM.

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#33 Korzul

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:40 AM

HoTW/shadow offhealing and gateway is keeping shamans somewhat competative right now.

Both are getting hefty nerfs in 5.4

Priests are getting huge buffs.
Resto druids are getting huge buffs.

They're both already a lot stronger than the 3 other healers.

We're facing 26 extra ilevels of damage and no increase in resil. The trinket set bonus won't even offset the extra damage people are going to end up with through gear and we're still stuck with zero options whilst stunned or silenced, weak/dispellable instants and an unreliable smart healing totem that likes healing itself.

It's not a case of "wanting to be the best healer" it's a case of not wanting the spec to become completely useless.

Edited by Korzul, 30 June 2013 - 11:42 AM.

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#34 Misterwooly

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:53 AM

Isn't this just a product of what dps are currently very strong atm? Rshamans seemed strong when wizards were dominant, but it seems hunters are keeping wizards in check (mages especially.) Also, elemental has recently gotten very strong as well, so the rsham utility can be brought with ele while using a priest/druid healer.
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#35 Wallirik

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:25 PM

2. Shamanistic rage baseline for all specs. All other healers have oh shit buttons, why not shamans?

Number 3 and 4 would make them way too good I think, but this is just absolutely laughable.
Are you serious? lol

On topic, I honestly don't understand the immense amount of crying coming from resto shamans. Do you want them to be the definite best healer in 9/10 comps like they used to be in cata and some of s12? Maybe they aren't "viable" in THAT many comps, but i can easily list several shaman comps that still work completely fine; LSD2, FPS, FLS, shatterplay, shadowcleave. Possibly more that I didn't think of.

What does it matter if they need to be peeled a lot to work as long as they have comps that work out?

Any comp I ever meet, I'd rather the enemy have any other healer than resto shaman, they're still the hardest healer for me to deal with (maybe not so much if another healer plays with a dps shaman because of tremor, but again, It's fucking retarded fighting rsham+dps sham on the same team as a warlock, as any comps I've played).
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#36 GrandalMurmillo

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:30 PM

Number 3 and 4 would make them way too good I think, but this is just absolutely laughable.
Are you serious? lol

On topic, I honestly don't understand the immense amount of crying coming from resto shamans. Do you want them to be the definite best healer in 9/10 comps like they used to be in cata and some of s12? Maybe they aren't "viable" in THAT many comps, but i can easily list several shaman comps that still work completely fine; LSD2, FPS, FLS, shatterplay, shadowcleave. Possibly more that I didn't think of.

What does it matter if they need to be peeled a lot to work as long as they have comps that work out?

Any comp I ever meet, I'd rather the enemy have any other healer than resto shaman, they're still the hardest healer for me to deal with (maybe not so much if another healer plays with a dps shaman because of tremor, but again, It's fucking retarded fighting rsham+dps sham on the same team as a warlock, as any comps I've played).


try to play shaman vs feral hunter/hunter ret.

and re post.
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#37 Wallirik

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:32 PM

try to play shaman vs feral hunter/hunter ret.

and re post.

Well I play with a shaman, and have played with a shaman almost exclusively since s8, so yeah? Maybe it's gay to fight, but as the warlock in the team, I think my team should win those comps.

edit: given they don't play with a resto sham, which they very very rarely do.

Edited by Wallirik, 30 June 2013 - 12:34 PM.

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#38 Teebowx

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:45 PM

I honestly don't have that many issues vs hunter/feral and hunter/ret playing as a Rsham. I do however think that the only top tier comps a Rsham can play are fps and lsd2 due to the fact that they have crazy amounts of offhealing and CC which is exactly what they need.
Previously mentioned Scleave and shatter are both way better with a druid.

As for possible fixes, I do think totemic restoration needs to go and replaced with something Rshams can use while stunned and/or silenced seeing as they're the only healer atm which can't use anything while stunned or silenced.

Another possibility would be to reintroduce being able to use totems while silenced, however not when "locked out". You should get punished for getting locked out, not for getting blanketed.
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#39 Drcooperphd

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 01:39 PM

On European servers you still see high representation auf Resto Shamans in Arena, probably more than you see Druids, which would put him on the second place.


Points like these make me chuckle.
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#40 zenga

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:12 PM

Solutions:

1. Make totems usable while silenced. This means that if it´s just a blanket silence totems work, if you took a nature lock which actually took some skill to land you pay the price and do the time. Only fair imo.

2. Shamanistic rage baseline for all specs. All other healers have oh shit buttons, why not shamans?

3. Undispellable ES or dispellable 1 charge at a time. Buff riptide initial healing.

4. Spiritwalker´s grace usable to break silence effects.


Shamanistic rage baseline seems to me the way forward, with the least chance to screw up balance overall. Imagine ele in it's current state or resto in it's 5.0-5.2 state being able to use totems while silenced, it becomes too much. They made a clear choice that totems are no longer physical abilities, and sticking with it makes the most sense since (else they have to revert it back and forth depending on the patch and the state of shamans overall).

Having 9 stacks of ES that needs to be dispelled one by one offers too much dispel protection (i.e. put earth shield on your team mate who pops purge-able offensive CD's and it makes offensive dispelling almost meaningless). They could make it dispel-able in sets of 3, but that seems not to be a very elegant solution. Making ES non dispel-able again might become OP. The difference between dispel-able and non dispel-able ES is massive.

An alternative could be that ghostwolf makes shamans immune to dispels (both offensive and defensive dispels).
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