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Tweetin' Holinka with some Mage changes. Thoughts?


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#1 nikolas

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 01:25 AM

Feedback on the current state of Mages, the 5.4 PTR changes and what PvE has done to Frost:
http://pastebin.com/ZJXnhMR6

Suggested Mage changes for upcoming expansion:
http://pastebin.com/n6sJJD2W

Quote

Frost Mage changes to transfer damage from instant cast procs to Frostbolt
23.06.2013

-- Introduction
Hello Holinka, again. Hopefully you read my last tweet. It was my first tweet ever, and I therefore hold it very high. This is the second tweet however. Not quite as impressive as being the first tweet, but in this case it might be just as important as its all about how you can improve the design of Frost Mages, most likely for an upcoming expansion. I thank you for your time and I hope that you appreciate feedback exceeding the 140 character limit of Twitter. I will be commenting most changes using asterisks (*) to mark the beginning and the end.

-- Frost Mage patch notes to improve Frostbolt in PvP

Frostbolt
- Damage increased by 25%
* All these notes are about moving damage from other spells to Frostbolt while maintaining a valid PvE rotation. *

Fire Blast
- Damage increased by 50%
* Instant damage will be nerfed alot. Increasing the damage of a more predictable source of instant damage to compensate. *

Cone of Cold
- Damage increased by 300%
* Glyph should be baseline. The ability has never been weaker than in this expansion. *

Water Elemental: Freeze
- No longer grants Fingers of Frost when successfully hit
* Every game starts with a pet nova and one to two Ice Lances and a Deep Freeze. It feels very wrong casting a Fingers of Frost Ice Lance into a Shatter combo with Freeze already present. *

Frozen Orb
- Damage decreased by 30%
* Nerf to the Frost Mage super shatter. *
- Duration increased to 15 sec, up from 10 sec
* Compensate for the nerf for PvE. *
- Can't proc Fingers of Frost more than once every second
* Hitting multiple enemies shouldn't overwhelm you with procs, but instead make it a more consistent flow. *

Fingers of Frost
- Frostbolt now also benefits from, and consumes, Fingers of Frost
* It is the only way to make a hardcasting Frost Mage scary in PvP. *
- Cone of Cold now has a 15% chance to trigger Fingers of Frost
* Added another source of Fingers of Frost due to Freeze nerf. *
- Frost Armor now has a 5% chance to trigger Fingers of Frost
* Added a anti-train mechanic due to relying more on Frostbolt. *
- Ice Lance no longer gets a 25% damage increase when used with Fingers of Frost
* Merging numbers for the next change. *
- Ice Lance damage versus non-player target is increased by 100% when used with Fingers of Frost
* Making Ice Lance a high priority in PvE while keeping it in line in PvP. *

"The Fingers of Frost effect causes your next
Frostbolt, Ice Lance or Deep Freeze to act as if
your target were frozen, and increase Ice Lance
damage by 100% versus non-player targets."

Mastery: Frostburn
- Revert 5.4 PTR changes
- Base mastery reduced to 7.5
* Lowering the base percent of Mastery to make the stat more attractive. *
- Now requires 400 rating per point of Mastery, up from 300
* Nerf to compensate for Frostbolt being put back on Fingers of Frost. Ideally, Frostburn values shouldn't go beyond ~30% in PvP to keep the damage normalized outside of procs. *

Frostfire Bolt
- Increase damage by 15%
* Compensate for the Mastery change and it needs to hit between 90%-110% damage of a frozen Frostbolt. *

At this point I think the ratio between Mage's damaging abilities is in a very good place. This will however result in a pretty big PvE buff, regardless of the Mastery nerf. I think that a PvP coefficient on Ice Lance is neccesary to achieve the best possibly PvE and PvP experience aslong as you insist on having Ice Lance in the PvE rotation.
Ways to tune down Frost PvE damage after these changes:

- Cut all damage by X%
- Consider lowering the damage increase on Ice Lance when cast versus non-player targets
- Reduce damage of Mage Bombs, but also remove the player damage coefficients
- Keep Frozen Orb at 10 sec duration
- Consider removing the damage increase on Frostbolt debuff as its no longer needed to keep Ice Lance in check in PvP. Will also nerf Water Elemental damage. Consider increasing all damage up a bit to compensate
- Add another PvP exception, for example to Shatter:

"Shatter
Doubles the critical strike chance of all your
spells against frozen targets plus an additional
50% versus players."

This will increase the Critical Strike cap of Frost in PvE to 50%, making Crit, Mastery and Haste much more equal secondary stats.

This is how the PvE rotation will look like:

Frozen Orb > Frost Bomb > Shatter Ice Lances after Frostbolts with Fingers of Frost > Casting Brain Freeze > Frostbolt

Having Frostbolt on Fingers of Frost will allow you cast "old school" Shatters as a part of your rotation, increasing the fun factor and the skill cap.


-- Mage patch notes to improve gameplay in PvP

Frost Armor
- Cast time removed, down from 3 sec
- Slow increased to 40%, up from 30%

Mage Armor
- Cast time removed, down from 3 sec
- Duration of harmful magic effects reduced by 20%, down from 25%

Molten Armor
- Cast time removed, down from 3 sec
- Attacks against you applies the Weakening Blows debuff (10% less physical damage done)

Glyph of Armors
- Mage Armor: Duration of harmful magic effects reduced by an additional 10%
- Molten Armor: Increase armor by an additional 50%
- Frost Armor: The Frost Armor debuff will now stack up to 10 times (Maximum one stack per sec). On the 10th application the target will be frozen for 4 sec.

* The Frost Armor change will introduce a "Controlled" Frostbite. One dispel will remove all stacks. Either shares diminishing returns with Ice Ward or on it's own, preferably on it's own. These changes to Armors and the glyph will add alot more dept to the the Mage class. It will reintroduce Armor toggeling, especially with Weakening Blows on Molten Armor, and make the Glyph of Armors less mandatory. Personally I've always thought it was abit weird that it just increased whatever the Armor did by 10 percent points. *

Invisibility
- You can no longer see enemies while invisible

Glyph of Invisibility
- No longer increase movement speed while invisible
- You can now see nearby enemies while invisible
* Mages will have to commit a glyph slot if they want to go for the cookie cutter opener. The invis Shatter happens to be alot stronger in the lower brackets of Arena because people don't use Arena123 Counterspell macros. This will in a sense "free up" a glyph slot for high rated Mages that opts to not go for that play style. *

Glyph of Blink
- No longer increase range traveled when casting Blink
- Removes movement slowing effects when casting Blink

Glyph of Cone of Cold
- Replaced with Glyph of Alter Time

NEW Glyph of Alter Time
- All health healed when Alter Time is active will be added to your saved health value when the spell resolves
* Using Alter Time defensively at the moment is little used because you can't play too much around it versus dispellers, therefore making it alot better to abuse with instant procs instead. The Glyph will not be "core" so it will be an active decision to pick it up. *

Glyph of Frost Nova
- No longer reduce the cooldown of Frost Nova
- Increase all damage dealt by 20% to targets affected by your Frost Nova
* The old version is just horrible because how diminishing returns work. The new one will create scenarios where you are more likely to go for a Frost Nova Shatter instead of just casting Frostbolts. *

Glyph of Ice Block
- No longer triggers a free Frost Nova or makes you immune to spells
- When attacked by a spell while in Ice Block, you have a 100% chance to reflect it back at the attacker.
* Just a fun tool to have access to. In my opinion way more in line than the Hunter's "Glyph of Mirrored Blades" because Ice Block is a much bigger commitment. *

Glyph of Remove Curse
- Revert 5.4 PTR changes
* This glyph really didn't need buffing in the first place. By making Glyph of Armors less mandatory, and as Hunters representation in Arena goes down, this glyph with automatically start to pop up here and there. Remember there is only one class in the game that consistently puts up curses. *

Glyph of Counterspell
- No longer increase cooldown of Counterspell
* The drawback is too big for it to be ever considered in Arena especially seeing that you rarely cast, and Counterspell is mostly used as a blanket silence on healers. *

Presence of Mind
- Cooldown increased to 2 min, up from 1.5 min
* Needs nerfed, preferably even higher cooldown than 2 min, replaced with a new talent or have certain spells like Polymorph removed from being used with it. *

Ice Floes
- Cooldown reduced to 20 sec
- Reduced to one charge
* Most of the time you only need to get that one cast off. This will buff it in PvP while as in PvE it will remain relatively the same. *

-- Misc changes

Weakened Blows
- Duration reduced to 20 sec, down from 30 sec.
* It is abit long, don't you think? *


-- Final words

On a side note I must say I got positively surprised when reading the Hunter changes and the Tie Breaker change to Arena. Remember for next expansion to keep what you have been trying to balance during entire Mists of Pandaria, and not completely flip - turn upside down the game. Before you stop reading I would like you to take a moment, so just sit right there, and I will tell you how I became the prince of a town called Bel-Air.


Salokin-EU Sylvanas

There is lack of things to read on these class forums, so you might aswell just get starting :)

And of course, share your thoughts!

#2 Ilidio

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 02:56 AM

virus

Sorry, your post must be at least 2 word(s) long.
Posted Image

#3 Zyano

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 11:23 AM

I really like these changes I think especially the armor changes would create a lot of dynamic / rewarding play, changes like this are definately the direction Blizzard needs to take mage design to get that "mage" feeling back that they have lost over the past two expansions

llena said:

who cares if people think we are horrible, who cares if we are horrible free drake right?

#4 obilax

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 11:41 AM

yay no more getting globald in a deep?

#5 Zyano

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 11:53 AM

View Postobilax, on 23 June 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

yay no more getting globald in a deep?

Trying to discuss potential changes not troll or flame here.

llena said:

who cares if people think we are horrible, who cares if we are horrible free drake right?

#6 watchmepwn

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 12:24 PM

I don't see why this would be any better for us (mages).

The amount of interrupts in the game requieres us to have a instant based class.

#7 mickeii_3894005

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 12:27 PM

Can we get someone for every class whos as creative as OP? This guy should work at Blizzard.

#8 nikolas

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 12:36 PM

View Postwatchmepwn, on 23 June 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

I don't see why this would be any better for us (mages).

The amount of interrupts in the game requieres us to have a instant based class.

That is totally irrelevant. If you want to move the game into more casting then you obviously have to start with that, then change interrupts and melee lock down accordingly.

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 01:21 PM

I like how blizz dont want to change anything major cause they dont want to change to much before a new expansion.


Decides to totaly change the game just before the endgame.

Edited by Zerlog, 23 June 2013 - 02:50 PM.


#10 Mirionx

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 02:27 PM

View PostZerlog, on 23 June 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

I like how blizz dont want to change anything major cause they dont want to change to much before a new expansion.


Decides to totaly change the game just before the endgame.



And you wonder why the devs can't take 90% of AJ seriously, people like you tweet him pointless shit that isn't even worth reading and just wastes their time

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 02:49 PM

View PostMirionx, on 23 June 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

And you wonder why the devs can't take 90% of AJ seriously, people like you tweet him pointless shit that isn't even worth reading and just wastes their time

Actually most ppl on aj have tweeted holinka a few good ideas tips, but they dont get answered or looked at, thats why the game is what it is, they only answer most random questions, sadly.


Edit: theres also alot of valuable feedback posted here as they say they are reading AJ

Edited by Zerlog, 23 June 2013 - 02:50 PM.


#12 Zyano

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 03:01 PM

AJ as a community need to come to realise that we are getting more feedback from Blizzard and potential to implement ideas ourselves than ever before, sure every post won't be read but it will take some increased level of maturity for Holinka and crew to take us more seriously.

If you don't have something to contribute constructively for or againt said ideas then don't clutter the topic with flame and or trolling.

It's apparent that MoP won't be how we want it to be but Blizzard have stated that they want to really tone down things like instant cc in the next expac so look to the future and let's help them in doing so with lots of high level insight and ideas that they could potentially use for each class.

llena said:

who cares if people think we are horrible, who cares if we are horrible free drake right?

#13 Kettu

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 03:02 PM

View PostZerlog, on 23 June 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

I like how blizz dont want to change anything major cause they dont want to change to much before a new expansion.


Decides to totaly change the game just before the endgame.

Posted Image

Perhaps a moderator should grant this guy a one way ticket to grinding bananas in the jungle.


View PostZerlog, on 23 June 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

Actually most ppl on aj have tweeted holinka a few good ideas tips, but they dont get answered or looked at, thats why the game is what it is, they only answer most random questions, sadly.
Hello, if there are ddos'ers out there, please ddos this guy off the internet for life. I am sure many people would be grateful. Ty.

#14 Feliclandelo

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 03:19 PM

I have no idea how you can go without being permanent banned from AJ djfrostbomb. Time after time you show your retardation, even when some people are actually trying to improve the game more than ever. The fact that he even wants to have a twitter account is just a privilege.

Yet you tweet him with an insult, and I can only wonder how fucking dumb a person you are. What did your tweet accomplish? Nothing, except perhaps now he thinks we are even more childish than before.

You should be permanently banned, solely for making such a mongoloid tweet. Not here on AJ only, but from the internet.

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 03:58 PM

View PostFeliclandelo, on 23 June 2013 - 03:19 PM, said:

I have no idea how you can go without being permanent banned from AJ djfrostbomb. Time after time you show your retardation, even when some people are actually trying to improve the game more than ever. The fact that he even wants to have a twitter account is just a privilege.

Yet you tweet him with an insult, and I can only wonder how fucking dumb a person you are. What did your tweet accomplish? Nothing, except perhaps now he thinks we are even more childish than before.

You should be permanently banned, solely for making such a mongoloid tweet. Not here on AJ only, but from the internet.

excuse me?, so you honestly think that what hes doing is the best for the game?, its simple, if you pay for something esp from blizzard that provides quality games, you dont expect them to go off their own statment and totaly redo the game, even tho they said on and on and on again that they aint doing revamps and critical changes before next expansions or major patches. that means what hes doing now is breaking the game. if im wrong dont bother commenting cause its just my oppinion along with several others. TY

and my retardation? well maybe if ppl could stop being so fucking stupid and actually pay attention to the "FEW, yes rare, posts that ive actually tried to contribue and get bashed on" i might just stop being so unserious like most ppl on aj are.

just because you have r1 titles and are cake eating rank one in this game, dont bash on me, sit down son.

Edited by Zerlog, 23 June 2013 - 04:01 PM.


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Posted 23 June 2013 - 04:03 PM

View PostKettu, on 23 June 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

Hello, if there are ddos'ers out there, please ddos this guy off the internet for life. I am sure many people would be grateful. Ty.

Edit: less offensive. i find it funny how you think the internets the thing... tell me how serious you are on aj yourself.

Edited by Zerlog, 23 June 2013 - 04:05 PM.


#17 Ollebabz

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 04:37 PM

I really like the changes you've suggested, sounds like a much more fun playstyle than the current one. Of cause the amount of casting we'll need to do will gimp us a bit in the current state of the game, but if they actually did these changes, then i could imagine they'd do some changes to other classes too.

#18 Udderly

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 05:14 PM

View Postwatchmepwn, on 23 June 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

I don't see why this would be any better for us (mages).

The amount of interrupts in the game requieres us to have a instant based class.

You need to consider that he is speaking from a new expansion perspective.  So he's talking about a game that the devs have already said is going to move to much fewer instant ccs and less interrupts to promote casting.  

OT - great post OP and i agree with a lot of this.  Really well thought out.

#19 Moosex

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 10:54 PM

View PostZerlog, on 23 June 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:



Edit: less offensive. i find it funny how you think the internets the thing... tell me how serious you are on aj yourself.
Dude no one likes you
Posted Image

#20 kannetixx

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 02:26 AM

noblock and covqt or whoever that one rogue is have to be the same person.

Edited by kannetixx, 24 June 2013 - 02:26 AM.

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