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Poll: Reverting to BC (107 member(s) have cast votes)

Remove MMR/cleaning achiements-statistics

  1. Remove MMR and keep achievements/statistics (21 votes [19.63%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 19.63%

  2. Keep MMR and remove achievements/statistics (2 votes [1.87%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 1.87%

  3. Remove/clean both (4 votes [3.74%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.74%

  4. Keep both as is - don't touch anything (28 votes [26.17%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 26.17%

  5. Reset MMR and achievement/statistics every season - add FoS for milestones of each season (eg Grevious 2700 etc) (52 votes [48.60%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 48.60%

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#1 Braindance

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 06:13 AM

What?

Remove MMR and statistics/achievements - revert to BC system

Why?

MMR lived its purpose during WotLK were the ladders were much more active; achievements don't show much anymore, since they were accumulated since 2008.

Both present an enormous barrier to the newer, ambitious generation of players that have a really hard time breaking into the established glad cartels. I have seen plenty a player that quit the game/stopped pvping because they reached their rating ceiling and couldn’t get further (but not their true skill limit).

Benefits

             I.      Removing MMR

a.     Shorter queues – high rated players meet lower rated players and vice versa, with the same net effect on the speed with which team rating is gained (for the more experience players)

b.     Much harder to abuse. There have been countless examples of how MMR has been exploited in the past. I don’t remember such stories from BC, apart from the traditional win-trading

c.      Discourages team hopping. This might seem bad to streamers/high rated players, but it also makes lower rated players take care of their team, strive harder to maintain w/l and increases overall activity since you have to work harder for your rating. Also increases glad spots due to less disbanded/inactive teams

d.     Much harder to snipe due to (1)

e.      Effectively kills boosting, since it requires much more effort and time. This safeguards players from unemployed leeches that sell pixelated titles, and actually forces them to play the game themselves


          II.      Removing achievements/statistics

a.     Removes the huge barrier between new/returning players and current players

b.     Allows everyone to start with a clean slate every season

c.      Gives new players the chance to get to know other people instead of isolating themselves in cliques. Playing test games or facing someone in the arena then playing with him would become a thing again

d.     Makes player reputation on the server a better metric for ability/skill

e.      Becoming better becomes the carrot on the stick and not the achievement

f.       Forces higher rated player to take games more seriously, since rating is much more ephemeral than it is now

Share your thoughts and please make this thread open to members since they are the bulk of the pvp community

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#2 sounds

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 06:39 AM

I'm in favor for removing both I guess.

Achievements have been a plague ever since they were implemented (this goes for PvE too), especially now they have had like 5 years to accumulate AND are account-wide. Achievements earned back then are either reduced in weight or almost completely negligible (eg: a player gets 2200 playing something that was OP in s5 quits playing and comes back in S14 playing an entirely new class).

As for MMR, in TBC I never liked getting my shit stomped by glads/alts but it didn't happen that often and the ladders were WAY more active too. However if it meant less bug abusing/exploits, camping, etc then I'm all for it.

If removing both or either results in more active ladders, than I'd be satisfied with the change especially if it didn't impact largely on a player's ability to team-hop.

e; I think the most significant change would be removing achievements though, as it stops many new/returning players from progressing any further simply because they don't have the required achievements but can't really get those achievements because nobody wants to play with them. This results in either the players give up, buy a boost or have to beg someone of higher rating to take a chance with them.

#3 Braindance

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 06:45 AM

When you vote, please add an explanation like Sfx did

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 06:49 AM

They should make the Rating system per season similar to how Starcraft II works, giving you Feat with Highest in 1v1/2v2 and stuff you ever been, but 1 small change to that is to keep every x rating 1750 / 2k & 2200 and up but adding in a season Number to it. For example. xxxx finished 1750 season 1 2v2

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Somthing similar like this?, its 3 feats per season, could be gutted down to 3v3 and 5s only and maybe includ class?

also dont forgett in 5.4 the arena will be Xrealm wide on your BG aswell, so this will hopefully be a better solution then achi requiring spamms all over. also i dont think its possible to make new players even with veterans but i think this way is a good way, its working for SC2 and its quite the competive esport :D

Edited by Zerlog, 22 June 2013 - 07:15 AM.


#5 Frequently

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 06:51 AM

I only see removing achievements/statistics benefiting low rated players that wanna get carried.  I voted to keep both as is but i think they should remove mmr and base queues off team rating because then it actually is a true test on how far in rating you can actually get.

#6 sounds

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 06:51 AM

It could help get more people playing if they removed arena/rbg achievements (possibly mmr too), but it would require class balancing too. :hunter: :hunter: :hunter:

#7 fant0m8

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 06:55 AM

I can see why you posted this late at night. Wow.

"High rated players against low wouldn't happen that often" -> Absurd statement, this was a huge problem and adding MMR was a brilliant solution to the issue of lowbies getting constantly stomped and having like a 30% win rate. That discourages players (particularly new players) from continuing to PVP.

"apart from the traditional win-trading" -> Exactly. This was a huge problem in the early seasons.

"it also makes lower rated players take care of their team, strive harder to maintain w/l and increases overall activity since you have to work harder for your rating. Also increases glad spots due to less disbanded/inactive teams" -> Wishful thinking. I see no reason to assume this is what would happen. In fact, there would probably be MORE inactive teams due to the team hopping that would *still* happen coupled with the fact that re-earning 30% games played is much harder than bringing PR back to the TR.

"Gives new players the chance to get to know other people instead of isolating themselves in cliques. Playing test games or facing someone in the arena then playing with him would become a thing again" -> More wishful thinking. If you think that changing achievements is going to alter human behavior, just wow....

"Makes player reputation on the server a better metric for ability/skill" -> This is already the case.

"Forces higher rated player to take games more seriously" -> What?



-----

I honestly wouldn't be against resetting achievements every season, but removing them entirely? That will never happen. All in all, these are absurd suggestions and would ruin the game. The problem with WoW isn't the rating systems or other game systems that surround arena, the only problem is class balance. That and the fact that the good things that we have in place have only been around for a few months, so their effect hasn't fully manifested yet.
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#8 Braindance

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 07:05 AM

View Postfant0m8, on 22 June 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

I can see why you posted this late at night. Wow.

"High rated players against low wouldn't happen that often" -> Absurd statement, this was a huge problem and adding MMR was a brilliant solution to the issue of lowbies getting constantly stomped and having like a 30% win rate. That discourages players (particularly new players) from continuing to PVP.

"apart from the traditional win-trading" -> Exactly. This was a huge problem in the early seasons.

"it also makes lower rated players take care of their team, strive harder to maintain w/l and increases overall activity since you have to work harder for your rating. Also increases glad spots due to less disbanded/inactive teams" -> Wishful thinking. I see no reason to assume this is what would happen. In fact, there would probably be MORE inactive teams due to the team hopping that would *still* happen coupled with the fact that re-earning 30% games played is much harder than bringing PR back to the TR.

"Gives new players the chance to get to know other people instead of isolating themselves in cliques. Playing test games or facing someone in the arena then playing with him would become a thing again" -> More wishful thinking. If you think that changing achievements is going to alter human behavior, just wow....

"Makes player reputation on the server a better metric for ability/skill" -> This is already the case.

"Forces higher rated player to take games more seriously" -> What?



-----

I honestly wouldn't be against resetting achievements every season, but removing them entirely? That will never happen. All in all, these are absurd suggestions and would ruin the game. The problem with WoW isn't the rating systems or other game systems that surround arena, the only problem is class balance. That and the fact that the good things that we have in place have only been around for a few months, so their effect hasn't fully manifested yet.
Class balance? Class balance right now is at it's best overall state since....Forever

Class balance was shit in BC. Utter shit. Class balance was OK in wrath, but wrath suffered from other issues (pve gear, one shots, wizards, legendaries, dks etc). Cata was somewhat OK early s10 then went down the dumpster. S12 was an OK first season, that suffered from the common issues first seasons suffer from. The current season is at a very good spot balance-wise. If you exclude warriors and rogues everything has a t1 comp, and there is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.

Class balance is a drop in the ocean.

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

#9 Marshmellow

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 07:13 AM

I like the idea of removing achievements but keeping mmr, this will give people more incentive to actually play the game rather than sit rating all season long.

People worry too much about titles when they basically mean nothing now, you should pay for the game to play it, not to sit and jerk off to your own ratings all season.

The reason I would like to keep mmr is because I feel like it is not fair to the lower rated players that would have to endure being slayed by higher rated players, some people might say "It will help the lower rated players learn faster" when in reality it wont at all, you cant really learn when you are just being shit on for an entire match, I like the way that new players have to progressively play better players as their mmr goes up.
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#10 WildeHilde

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 07:14 AM

Can we add the option for "New achievements for every season but keep the old ones"? Not sure about MMR but a reset would be nice after season end, at least a reset down to 2.2 or better 2k.

#11 Braindance

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 07:16 AM

View PostWildeHilde, on 22 June 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Can we add the option for "New achievements for every season but keep the old ones"? Not sure about MMR but a reset would be nice after season end, at least a reset down to 2.2 or better 2k.
Updated

View PostZerstiren, on 14 August 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

If you haven't +repped this guy, you are part of the problem.

View PostRenaissance_Man, on 31 July 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

If I had a gun with two bullets and I was in a room with Hitler, bin Laden, and you, I would shoot you twice.

View Postsimonfra1234, on 25 August 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

bro you got +rep'd by rapture...

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 07:22 AM

View PostWildeHilde, on 22 June 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Can we add the option for "New achievements for every season but keep the old ones"? Not sure about MMR but a reset would be nice after season end, at least a reset down to 2.2 or better 2k.

I really like the idea of mmr reset to 2200 if your above or at 2200 & fos similar to the idea i posted?

+rep

Edited by Zerlog, 22 June 2013 - 07:29 AM.


#13 sounds

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 07:24 AM

I've changed my vote to "Reset MMR and achievement/statistics every season - add FoS for milestones of each season (eg Grevious 2700 etc)" as per the poll update.

#14 Marshmellow

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 07:27 AM

View Postsounds_, on 22 June 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

I've changed my vote to "Reset MMR and achievement/statistics every season - add FoS for milestones of each season (eg Grevious 2700 etc)" as per the poll update.

Same, this was a great idea.
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#15 Covlol

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 07:47 AM

View PostMarshmellow, on 22 June 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:



Same, this was a great idea.

This^
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Lvl 1 Dk Legend Covlol

#16 Hoodzx

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 08:17 AM

View PostWildeHilde, on 22 June 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Can we add the option for "New achievements for every season but keep the old ones"? Not sure about MMR but a reset would be nice after season end, at least a reset down to 2.2 or better 2k.

sure,

add it to the feat of strenghts but in a pvp section, like this :

best rating 2v2 S14 : 2121
best rating 3v3 S14 : 2325
best rating 5v5 S14 : 1940

So it wont annoy anyone in the achievements, we need to see it easily :)

#17 Persephones

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 08:37 AM

View PostBraindance, on 22 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

If you exclude warriors and rogues everything has a t1 comp, and there is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.

Are you on drugs? Seriously is this a joke? It doesn't matter if I queue with rl friends at 1500, guildies at 1800 or my other team mates at 2.2-2.4k - 9 out of 10 games consist of hunter/x/healer, no joke. It's not even close an overexxageration. I actually think the odds of meeting a hunter team is much larger than 9/10. The variety of comps has NEVER BEEN THIS BAD BEFORE. At least in Cata you'd meet RLS/WLS (they were played very differently) MLX/Thug etc.

PvErs get new achievements every single content match, not only from dailies/raids, but also a meta achievement that rewards a unique mount. I don't see why they couldn't do the same, as in at least add new rating achievements in 2v2/3v3/5v5/rbg. Just label them with "Season 12" or whatever.

Edited by Persephones, 22 June 2013 - 08:38 AM.

View PostBraindance, on 22 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

The current season is at a very good spot balance-wise. There is a comp variety that hasn't been seen in the game since s8.

#18 Eveny

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 08:45 AM

I think completely removing mmr would be a bad idea, as you said it would make people take better care of their team but it would also completely discourage new players if they get totally wrecked..

voted Reset MMR and achievement/statistics every season - add FoS for milestones of each season

Edited by Eveny, 22 June 2013 - 08:47 AM.

If you have problems understanding my post, don't assume something and hit the reply button but read it again.

#19 Devion87

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 08:47 AM

remove achievements and statistics for pvp... it ruins everything... if you dont have them nobody wants to play with you.

mmr tho is a very good thing... anyone who played active in tbc knows the system was shitty.
I remember not only new players get stomped, but also high rated glad pushers losing to a +00 team because of a DC and get rewarded with -24.

Edited by Devion87, 22 June 2013 - 08:52 AM.


#20

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:33 AM

View PostHoodzx, on 22 June 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

sure,

add it to the feat of strenghts but in a pvp section, like this :

best rating 2v2 S14 : 2121
best rating 3v3 S14 : 2325
best rating 5v5 S14 : 1940

So it wont annoy anyone in the achievements, we need to see it easily :)


i dont think "exact" rating is the way to go here, as it will still be the same as the current achievements are. and theres not much a diff from 1750 to 1802 and so on but something like that is the plan if you ask me :D




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