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What rogues need to be competitive

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#1 Ayume

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:07 PM

I would like to start by saying that I don’t think rogues are currently capable of competing at a tournament level setting. The reason for this is that rogues are incredibly flimsy, the kills we get are based on critting eviscerate and making sure our other dps is doing maximum +25% damage (via tricks of the trade and prey on the weak). Only one or two things have to go wrong for us to have next to no chance at winning.


Below are the buffs I think rogues need to be both more fun and competitive:
  • Sanguinary Vein now gives a +30% chance to Critical Strike Ambush and Backstab (in PvP only).
  • Hemorrhage now also increases the duration of our Rupture by 6 seconds(stacks to maximum  rupture duration)
  • Rogue PVP glove bonus changed to “Sprint now removes all roots and movement impairing effects when activated” (not immune)
  • Increased damage of backstab by 20% (in PvP only)

I’ll elaborate on the reasoning for each change:
  • Sanguinary Vein right now is a mandatory effect all rogues have to apply to the target and it feels quite unrewarding, the goal here is to make it feel like you –want- to apply rupture instead of it feeling like a chore. Both ambush and backstab really need to be criting or hitting harder, and the safest of these two options is buffing crit chance. This makes it easier to balance going forward since we can expect a 50% rate of crit on the ability and balance the damage around its maximum potential, instead of around its average non-crit.
  • Hemorrhage serves next to no purpose other than a way to drain energy if you can’t manage to get behind your target, in the past this was fine as it did about 10% less damage than backstab so it felt ok. Now it does roughly 35% less damage and costs 5 less energy, it really just feels clunky and not fun to use. My proposed change to it would help alleviate the exasperation of keeping 4 abilities up at once (Rupture, Slice & Dice, Feint, Recuperation) and also make it serve a good purpose in PvP.
  • The Rogue glove PVP bonus change is because rogues need a bit more mobility and I imagine that blizzard does not want to buff shadowstep, since it’s already the most taken talent and they want choice on each talent tier. This change could also be a glyph, which would make it more of a sacrifice and less of a buff since our glyphs are very tight as is (blind, garrote, cheapshot, feint). But rogues really do need a buff to mobility and I don’t feel like this change would be over doing it.
  • The increased damage to backstab in PvP is because backstab should be our primary source of damage, and currently it’s quite lackluster. A backstab right now on a mail target with Find Weakness and every other buff we have (glove bonus, pvp proc, sang vain, dancing steel) does about 35-40k crit. Now I feel that 35-40k crits would be fine WITHOUT find weakness and if we crit often, which we don’t. Majority of the time we won’t have find weakness on the target, and we have a 25% chance to crit. Right now my average backstab on cloth is 12k, on plate 8k, and the crits do obviously 24k and 16k respectively (which is absurdly low for it being our primary source of damage outside of eviscerate which I will go over below)


Ok so now that I’ve gone over the buffs, here’s what I think should be nerfed:
  • Subtlety mastery: Executioner needs to have its scaling reduced by 30% or so.
  • Prey on the Weak is now 7% damage bonus instead of 10%
  • Subterfuge reduced to 1.5 or 2 second duration

Reasoning behind these changes:
  • Eviscerate really just does a bit too much damage if it crits when mastery is stacked this high. On average against mail or cloth(with all procs and find weakness) I will get between 85-105k eviscerates crits, which I can then just immediately do again with mark for death, equating to a potential 210k in 2 globals. No one wants to see that kind of damage on demand. Sure it doesn’t always happen since our crit is low, but when it does it leaves the victim quite unhappy, and as a rogue I feel unsatisfied winning this way. Currently this is our only way of winning (what I aim to have change with these adjustments).
  • Prey on the weak is for the same reasons as above, but also to allow some choice in this tier, I really like paralytic poison, and I really like dirty tricks, but right now I can’t trade 10% damage for my partner and I for some fun utility. I like this tier and would really like it if it were more of a choice.
  • Subterfuge currently is broken due to a variety of reasons, the main one I can say for sure is that the victim cannot see what abilities the rogue is using, and another is that his partners cannot peel for him during it. With subtlety mastery the way it is a rogue can pop every cooldown in that window and get someone under 40% with eviscerate chain crits without even leaving stealth. Another problem is that AoEing a rogue in stealth and him having 3 seconds (more if you count vanish -> subterfuge) until he comes back out is a bit absurd, really I feel that you should be rewarded for guesstimating correctly when he’s stealthed. This will also allow more choice in this talent tier.


Feel free to chime in if you guys want, would be great to hear everyone else's opinion and refine this as needed.

Edited by Ayume, 21 June 2013 - 08:17 PM.

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#2 Bigpapapump

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:20 PM

Good ideas, but blizzard wont do anything. They knew a majority of the imbalances of 5.2 reogues revolved around subterfurge and eviscerate, but they did nothing to tone down those abilities - rather gutting c&d, Shuriken, Find weakness, etc. The sprint breaking roots/snares is particularly appealing since I highly doubt they will redesign talent trees until the next expansion.

Edited by Bigpapapump, 21 June 2013 - 08:21 PM.


#3 Nicetrylawl

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:24 PM

What do you think of buffing step to the way it was in BC? Where you could step while rooted but it wouldn't remove the roots from you?

#4 Draintain

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:30 PM

View PostBigpapapump, on 21 June 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

Good ideas, but blizzard wont do anything. They knew a majority of the imbalances of 5.2 reogues revolved around subterfurge and eviscerate, but they did nothing to tone down those abilities - rather gutting c&d, Shuriken, Find weakness, etc. The sprint breaking roots/snares is particularly appealing since I highly doubt they will redesign talent trees until the next expansion.
Pessimism sure doesn't help this thread a whole lot..

#5 Bigpapapump

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:33 PM

View PostTreetrunksxoxo, on 21 June 2013 - 08:30 PM, said:

Pessimism sure doesn't help this thread a whole lot..
Being optimistic went out of fashion when blizzard constantly disappointed.

#6 Ayume

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:44 PM

View PostBigpapapump, on 21 June 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

Good ideas, but blizzard wont do anything. They knew a majority of the imbalances of 5.2 reogues revolved around subterfurge and eviscerate, but they did nothing to tone down those abilities - rather gutting c&d, Shuriken, Find weakness, etc. The sprint breaking roots/snares is particularly appealing since I highly doubt they will redesign talent trees until the next expansion.

I actually believe they didn't know what the problem with rogues was last patch, mostly due to a lack of undiluted feedback. Had they known that nerfing eviscerate would have fixed most of the problems, they would have most definitely nerfed it. They aren't retarded, they just don't see everything for every class.

View PostNicetrylawl, on 21 June 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

What do you think of buffing step to the way it was in BC? Where you could step while rooted but it wouldn't remove the roots from you?

Like I said in my post, I don't think they will buff a talent that is taken 100% of the time. Unless they buff Cloak and Dagger more, or change burst of speed to breaking roots again I don't see any shadowstep buff in the near future. The whole reason rogues have been dumped on in this expansion is because of their desire to make each talent tier a choice. They just added all our core abilities to choices and well yea, we saw how that worked out.

Edited by Ayume, 21 June 2013 - 08:51 PM.

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#7 Bigpapapump

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:46 PM

I think they had access to people complaining about what the real rogue problems were, but like so many other times, they ignored the people that legitimately pvp'd to see what was wrong and just conceded to the idiot masses calling for generic nerfs. This has been a constant problem with their developers, and it would be refreshing to see a different pattern emerge.

#8 Lord Xar

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:51 PM

I like your proposals, but I believe mobility would still be a huge issue.

One root/snare break 1x/minute is not really the panacea we've been looking for. The "damage" buffs you recommend will just make us better than now, but still not competitive enough with other melee damage dealers. So, this is why I believe we need "more" mobility.

In addition to what you propose, I recommend.

1. Allow cloak to be used while stunned
2. Make ShS baseline
    a. In its place on the tier, any of these:
        i. reduce CD by 6 secs
        ii. Breaks snares / roots

* in this regards, we'd have two gap closers - shs and root break sprint.

3. Apply find weakness to Kidney Shot
4. Remove positional from Gouge (and glyph)

****************************************************
Combat:
Built into the spec:
1. Add 1 second to Gouge incapacitate
2. Passive damage reduction
3. Add a armour pen component to Revealing Strike
4. Make Combat insight have 2 levels. 15/30

Of course, I don't even have close to your level of play -

#9 prokillur

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:54 PM

rouge is fine l2play

#10 Sykoh

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:59 PM

the sustain damage buff and shs breaking roots will make me one happy camper

i agree with the idea of making our passive crit chance with backstab/ambush return
the sprint breaking roots might be borderline overpowered combined with shadowstep

Edited by Sykoh, 21 June 2013 - 09:02 PM.


#11 Prolifics

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 09:05 PM

What are you talking about? My fully geared double pve trinket rogue critting backstab for 8k on plate is totally fine!!

#12 Eveny

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 09:08 PM

View PostLord Xar, on 21 June 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

Allow cloak to be used while stunned

clos is fine we don't need things to be even easier to use aka everything useable while stunned.

i think sanguary veins should be on hemo and buff recup a little.
If you have problems understanding my post, don't assume something and hit the reply button but read it again.

#13 Ayume

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 09:25 PM

View PostLord Xar, on 21 June 2013 - 08:51 PM, said:

I like your proposals, but I believe mobility would still be a huge issue.
You have to also consider that other classes are being nerfed next patch, which is a rogue buff in itself (hunter net/silence nerf, mage damage nerf). Since we're low on the totem pole, every nerf to another class is a buff to us. On top of which, having played my warlock quite a bit, you can't have rogues breaking every root, there has to be a downside to every class. Like ferals have more damage and mobility, but less control.

View PostSykoh, on 21 June 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

the sustain damage buff and shs breaking roots will make me one happy camper

i agree with the idea of making our passive crit chance with backstab/ambush return
the sprint breaking roots might be borderline overpowered combined with shadowstep

I never said to make shs break roots, I completely agree that if it did break roots combined with sprint it would be too much. We would become the next ferals. There has to be a way of stopping us, and roots are that.
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#14 varellz

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 09:31 PM

  • Sanguinary Vein now gives a +30% chance to Critical Strike Ambush and Backstab (in PvP only).
  • Hemorrhage now also increases the duration of our Rupture by 6 seconds(stacks to maximum  rupture duration)
good ideas but i rather would like to see hemo back on sanguinary vein or make rupture useful. (again i have in mind it actually did dmg in bc)

#15 Twistedtoo

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 09:58 PM

You tell em Ayume

#16 Kaylol

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 10:24 PM

they need to wipe out the step tier completely and make step baseline. that tier needs to have modifiers of the ability. Kind of like warrior first tier.

#17 Richie311

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 11:32 PM

With the last few PTR notes having basically nothing added to them I'm really afraid that they are down with what they're going to change to rogues for next patch. I love my rogue but it just amazes me how they have absolutley no idea what they're goals are for this class(just read some of Holinka's tweets about rogues.) Honestly I wish they would just sit down and state out exactly what they're plan is for rogues so I can figure out if it's worth me trying to gear up practice with my rogue again.
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#18 Vhyro

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 11:47 PM

Good post man. Do you have any opinions on Mutilate and Combat, by any chance?
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#19 Ayume

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:04 AM

View Postvarellol, on 21 June 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

good ideas but i rather would like to see hemo back on sanguinary vein or make rupture useful. (again i have in mind it actually did dmg in bc)
Hemo back on sang vein would be nice, but it seems unlikely. I think they're pretty certain they like the idea of forcing rogues to use bleeds, maybe for pve reasons, I'm not certain. Rupture has never really been good damage, always subpar.

View PostKaylol, on 21 June 2013 - 10:24 PM, said:

they need to wipe out the step tier completely and make step baseline. that tier needs to have modifiers of the ability. Kind of like warrior first tier.
Also would be a pretty cool change, but a bit drastic for a single patch, based on their past changes per patch to classes. I would absolutely love it if they did do this for the next expansion though, definitely a good change.

View PostVhyro, on 21 June 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

Good post man. Do you have any opinions on Mutilate and Combat, by any chance?

Mutilate is pretty good I mean, I don't really know what they could do to mutilate to make it more pvp viable without screwing with PvE rotations etc. It's not that bad atm, the damage output is absurd, I've out-damaged dks with it before. Problem I really find with the spec is that it wants to sit on a target but with how the game is now, there's just no way to actually do that, unless you're a feral druid.

I haven't touched combat at all this expansion so I can't say anything about it. I'm not a big fan of combat.

One major point for all rogue specs that should be considered is that the dispel change was a huge nerf if you need to be sitting on a target. Chances are you're going to be peeled for 30-40% of the game, so during that 60% of the game you really need to be able to make a kill happen.

Edited by Ayume, 22 June 2013 - 12:17 AM.

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#20 sarma

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:14 AM

What rogues need to be competetive?

Hunter, feral , Ele , mage and disc nerf all of them are well deserved
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