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Potentially best rogue buff of 5.4

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#21 fant0m8

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 01:43 AM

View PostVhyro, on 20 June 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:

They're right, and you're wrong. Get over it.


Sorry, but losing the ability to use a 4 second stun with no cooldown is not even close to losing ice block or bubble. That's just absurdly biased.

Rogues always feel like they're entitled to use their stealth abilities 100% of the time, and anything that makes them visible to the enemy or stops them from using sap/cheap shot/etc at any time is broken. News flash: those abilities are balanced around not being available 100% of the time. That's why they require stealth and don't have a cooldown.

That kind of attitude, the idea that your own class shouldn't have counters, is the exact attitude that Blizzard has listened to over the years and has resulted in the watered down, homogenous game that no one likes and bleeds subscribers like a sieve.
Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#22 Spyrö

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:15 AM

View PostEveny, on 17 June 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

its now only 20sec but undispellable
yes bois we nurfed it!
Are you sure about this? So it's no longer a magic debuff? That would be ridiculous.
That would raise Druid skill-cap, coz if is not dispellable/cloackable, reapplying it to rogues would be mandatory, so the rogue can never Vanish. :lol:

#23 GrieverZ

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:18 AM

View PostMarshmellow, on 17 June 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

removal of the disengage root next?

Its going to be dispelable (not physical anymore).

#24 amaixliu

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:39 AM

View PostVhyro, on 20 June 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:

They're right, and you're wrong. Get over it.
dude

awesome reasoning, i haven't seen such a well constructed argument in a really long time

@spyro that guy was joking, it is 20s but it will still be dispellable afaik

#25 Capers

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 04:13 AM

View Postamaixliu, on 21 June 2013 - 02:39 AM, said:

@spyro that guy was joking, it is 20s but it will still be dispellable afaik

Lmfao what the fuck, that basically did nothing to the ability. It's still retarded as fuck.

View Postfant0m8, on 21 June 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

Sorry, but losing the ability to use a 4 second stun with no cooldown is not even close to losing ice block or bubble. That's just absurdly biased.

Rogues always feel like they're entitled to use their stealth abilities 100% of the time, and anything that makes them visible to the enemy or stops them from using sap/cheap shot/etc at any time is broken. News flash: those abilities are balanced around not being available 100% of the time. That's why they require stealth and don't have a cooldown.

That kind of attitude, the idea that your own class shouldn't have counters, is the exact attitude that Blizzard has listened to over the years and has resulted in the watered down, homogenous game that no one likes and bleeds subscribers like a sieve.

The thing is though, classes SHOULDN'T have counters, and that doesn't make a game "homogeneous." What makes a game stale and boring is shit like faerie fire that you just throw up every time it's removed, and leave it there. The rogue can't do half the shit his class is meant to do, and the druid doesn't have to work for anything. Just fire and forget. There's no justifying the ability.

And as for your comment about rogues feeling entitled to their stealth abilities: The reason for that is because our class is based around it. If our sustained damage outside of dance wasn't 1/3 that of just your pet, we wouldn't care so much about restealths. But this expac, blizzard basically baked everything about our class into stealth. We can't form pressure without it, we have blind kidney and gouge, but one is a 1min CD, and the others are 20 sec. Other than that, we just do nothing. We NEED to get into stealth in the current game. It's like a team just repeatedly killing your pet and completely destroying your damage, it's the same thing.
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#26 KPul

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 04:49 AM

View PostCapers, on 21 June 2013 - 04:13 AM, said:

But this expac, blizzard basically baked everything about our class into stealth. We can't form pressure without it, we have blind kidney and gouge, but one is a 1min CD, and the others are 20 sec. Other than that, we just do nothing. We NEED to get into stealth in the current game.
Blind = 2 minutes
Kidney = 20 seconds
Gouge = 10 Seconds
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#27 Ashleylol

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 06:25 AM

lol, its a start but no where near what we need yet, for rogues to be super viable, we now need offheals + insane damage nerfed, then weight be ok
Ashley 3000 rated rogue ~  http://www.twitch.tv/tierzx

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#28 Silhin

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 06:33 AM

View Postfant0m8, on 21 June 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

Sorry, but losing the ability to use a 4 second stun with no cooldown is not even close to losing ice block or bubble. That's just absurdly biased.

Rogues always feel like they're entitled to use their stealth abilities 100% of the time, and anything that makes them visible to the enemy or stops them from using sap/cheap shot/etc at any time is broken. News flash: those abilities are balanced around not being available 100% of the time. That's why they require stealth and don't have a cooldown.

That kind of attitude, the idea that your own class shouldn't have counters, is the exact attitude that Blizzard has listened to over the years and has resulted in the watered down, homogenous game that no one likes and bleeds subscribers like a sieve.

We r biased ? the cool downs of those abilitys are vanish or shadow dance and you letting a rogue or any class go behind a pillar and get out of combat is you and your teams fault

Youre also missing the point that vanish is one of rogues strongest defensive ability Vs some class like mages when they nova u to get a deepfreeze  or something as simple as breaking a druids root .  If you find it justifiable then maybe you shouldnt be able to use
deterrence or Disengage when FF is on you

#29 Echizen

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 06:46 AM

It would be a better example if his pet was in cc state during FF. How would you feel if that kind of thing existed? Totally destroing your class mechanic and damage capability. Would you be able to do anything against druid teams like that? I suppose you would not.
In our case it's destroying not only damage but our survivability too.

#30 Tsx

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 06:55 AM

View Postfant0m8, on 21 June 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

Sorry, but losing the ability to use a 4 second stun with no cooldown is not even close to losing ice block or bubble. That's just absurdly biased.

Rogues always feel like they're entitled to use their stealth abilities 100% of the time, and anything that makes them visible to the enemy or stops them from using sap/cheap shot/etc at any time is broken. News flash: those abilities are balanced around not being available 100% of the time. That's why they require stealth and don't have a cooldown.

That kind of attitude, the idea that your own class shouldn't have counters, is the exact attitude that Blizzard has listened to over the years and has resulted in the watered down, homogenous game that no one likes and bleeds subscribers like a sieve.
they depend on restealths more than any other expansion.There are some many ways to get a rogue out of stealth nowadays+ the fact that rogues does 0 dmg outside of stealth(subtifuge or dance).

#31 WildeHilde

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 07:11 AM

Actually that info is wrong. They split the debuffs into the magical anti stealth and the physical armor reduction part like suggested in the AJ podcast. Duration of the magic part is still too high in my opinion.

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#32 fant0m8

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:23 AM

View PostYarmyxx, on 21 June 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

they depend on restealths more than any other expansion.There are some many ways to get a rogue out of stealth nowadays+ the fact that rogues does 0 dmg outside of stealth(subtifuge or dance).

Getting the rogue out of stealth doesn't stop him now because of subterfuge. If you know what you're doing you'll still get the re-open off.
Flare is nerfed too in that regard, since it doesn't take effect until it hits the ground. It's basically useless outside of melee range or luckily predicting the rogue's movements (which is a failure on the rogue's part - being predictable).

View PostSilhin, on 21 June 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

you letting a rogue or any class go behind a pillar and get out of combat is you and your teams fault

There's only one way to completely prevent pillar restealths and that's to train the rogue from start to finish. And that is not always a viable strategy, depending on what comp the rogue is running with. There are ways to build your comp and strat to punish training the rogue.

My teammates and the rogue aren't the only ones in the arena. Every spec in the game has slows, roots, stuns and/or other CC that can stop the enemy from following a rogue for the 6 seconds it takes to drop combat. If the rogue's team has 0 coordination, sure it's easy to stop. If they know what they're doing it's not so easy (keep in mind that if 2 people are stopped and 1 gets behind the pillar, he's automatically overextending and can probably be punished).

View PostSilhin, on 21 June 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

Youre also missing the point that vanish is one of rogues strongest defensive ability Vs some class like mages when they nova u to get a deepfreeze  or something as simple as breaking a druids root .  If you find it justifiable then maybe you shouldnt be able to use
deterrence or Disengage when FF is on you

Of course it's your strongest defensive ability in a lot of situations, that's exactly my point. Powerful abilities need counters. Look at things like ice block or bubble. Complete immunity, but they're still on a spell school and on the GCD so there are ways to prevent them from being used. There is also mass dispel and shattering throw. Do you see Pallies/Mages making topics that say "Shattering Throw/MD: Why the fuck is this ability still in the game?"

And it's not like you don't have your own shield wall, plus evasion *and* cloak. And for less dangerous situations there's feint.

That being said, I think the more important (in terms of balance) function of faerie fire is to prevent regular out of combat restealths. I don't think it would be the end of the world if Vanish removed FF like it does Hunter's Mark. That should be what you tweet holinka, not shit like this.

Edited by fant0m8, 21 June 2013 - 08:42 AM.

Bye again! This game isn't fun when you don't know anyone else that still plays.

#33 Richie311

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 12:53 PM

View Postfant0m8, on 21 June 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

Sorry, but losing the ability to use a 4 second stun with no cooldown is not even close to losing ice block or bubble. That's just absurdly biased.

Rogues always feel like they're entitled to use their stealth abilities 100% of the time, and anything that makes them visible to the enemy or stops them from using sap/cheap shot/etc at any time is broken. News flash: those abilities are balanced around not being available 100% of the time. That's why they require stealth and don't have a cooldown.

That kind of attitude, the idea that your own class shouldn't have counters, is the exact attitude that Blizzard has listened to over the years and has resulted in the watered down, homogenous game that no one likes and bleeds subscribers like a sieve.

Except it is, our biggest defensive cooldown is Vanish, which is what I'm talking about when I compare it to Bubble or ice block. I'd compare it to hunters like so: Imagine if FF prevented you from using disengage or prevented you from using traps. What if you were unable to ever get distance between you and the melee thats up your ass(although its already like that for ferals anyway but for arguements sake just ignore that part.)

Honestly what I'd like to see is Vanish removing FF like it does with Mark. I think that'd be a decent trade off.
RICHMAN311 (1:34:09 AM): wat u doing
timbrice89 (1:34:21 AM): fucking this sheep
RICHMAN311 (1:34:36 AM): well thats my new sig for AJ forums
timbrice89 (1:34:48 AM): good

#34 skeetFace

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 12:58 PM

Nice 20sec now i can play thanks you !
this is a joke holinka?

#35 korzal

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:04 PM

View Postfant0m8, on 21 June 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

That being said, I think the more important (in terms of balance) function of faerie fire is to prevent regular out of combat restealths. I don't think it would be the end of the world if Vanish removed FF like it does Hunter's Mark.
+1

#36 akaishuichi

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:20 PM

just nerf hunter feral and rogue is fine
no limits !!

#37 amaixliu

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:38 PM

View Postkorzal, on 21 June 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

+1
real talk

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:47 PM

20sec is a JOKE... is this real life

#39 Flanktwo2

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 03:01 PM

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#40 Capers

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 03:31 PM

View PostKPul, on 21 June 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

Blind = 2 minutes
Kidney = 20 seconds
Gouge = 10 Seconds

Close enough
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